Do you know how to program, and do you dislike dishonest use of jump macros?

[macrogodx]

This is not supposed to be a discussion about whether jump macros are cheating or “unfair”. The fact of the matter is that blizzard are unlikely to ban people using simple jump macros and we as a community lack the tools to expose those that use said macros but pretend not to.

Videos, clips, streamers and players in-game pulling off perfect jump after perfect jump while pretending not to use a jump macro creates unhealthy expectations for new players trying to improve their jump game. Even legitimate and experienced jumpers will unfairly be compared against illegitimate jumpers who rely on jump macros. If you’re legit and you want to share your gameplay, I feel like you deserve recognition for your skill and effort without being compared to someone on “roids”

It doesn’t matter how good you get. You’ll never be able to be 100% consistent with your forward jump timings, unless you use a jump macro, and that’s okay.

In other games, communities have worked together to create anti-cheat tools or something like it to encourage fair play. For some communities it’s even as simple as having a little overlay while streaming/recording, showing you’re running at the correct framerate, correct settings or something like that.

This leads me to my idea and why I’m looking for someone with programming experience.

The idea is to create an overlay that shows the timing of your jump inputs so that streamers, youtubers or others that wish to share their gameplay could have it on top of their game to show they’re legit. Tournament organizers could even encourage its competitors to stream or record with the overlay to prevent “cheating” if jump macros are deemed against the rules.

I have a little sample that shows what I mean in practice, and it seems to work well in showing the difference between human and macro generated inputs.

I know there is probably very little interest in such a thing especially with the popularity of jump macros. But if you’re like me maybe we can encourage more people to play without the macros or at least just promote honesty around the use of macro assisted gameplay.

Feel free to DM me or something if you have the will and know-how and wish to discuss this further.

 

[Grimzee]

Tbh idk how a jump macros works or even to setup on but I would like to see one as a sample

 

[ZenwØw]

@macrogodx Your Macro's were Yummy !

 

[Bestworld]

Everyone and their grandmother has been using jump macros ever since macro keys were introduced to either mice or keyboard. People nailing jumps at a near perfect rate is 100% using it. Idgaf what they say.

The jump meta would look completely different if jump macros were taken out of the equation, but that will never be the case. Most gaming equipment today come with the possibility of setting it up anyways.

Another note is that because people are using a macro, it doesn't mean that they aren't performing. The situation matters, the angling matters, the movement speed/momentum matters, the decision matters etc. Pressing W+Space isn't what makes a good jump. It's the overall calculated decision. There are tons of situations and footage of players opting for a jump and failing (with macros), resulting in them dying where there were other, safer and better plays available (Mvq lol, sorry brah).

Jump macros are purely a talk about equipment, nothing else. Some keyboards just makes it impossible for the player to make certain jumps because they are either 1) too slow to register the input sequence, or 2) cancelling out inputs made by simultaneous button presses.

@Blackout has/used to have a keyboard with issue nr. 2, described above. That never stopped him from performing in a game.

Whether you're for or against jump macros doesn't really matter at this point. They're not only a part of the game, they're practically meta for high-end performing jumpers. If you have any modern keyboard / mouse, you're most likely able to create a jump macro yourself.

Other macros that are far more impactful, but never talked about, is when people use it for flag picking/returning. You think mousewheeling is fast? Oh sweet summer child...

Tbh idk how a jump macros works or even to setup on but I would like to see one as a sample

This is old, but it gives you an idea:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/102800131?filter=all&sort=time

 

[macrogodx]

This is not supposed to be a discussion about whether jump macros are cheating or “unfair”.

and then for some reason you proceed to post the usual explanations as to why jump macros are OK to use.

I don't agree with many of your points but I have never claimed people who use jump macros are bad. Obviosly there's a lot more to jumping then the timing and no one that sets up a jump macro will become a jump god immediatly. I've never claimed these things in this post.

Obviously jump macros provide an advantage otherwise people wouldn't use them. Seems like we both agree on that. I would just love if the top dogs who don't rely on such macros can get some well deserved recognition for putting in the work.

This sort of reminds me of bodybuilding. I would never claim someone like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman (or others like them) haven't put in effort to get where they got even with steroid use. But I do feel like it hurts natural bodybuilders that are compared against people on roids yet pretend not to use them. Natural bodybuilders deserve credit for trying to reach the human limit. Roided bodybuilders deserve credit for taking it beyond the human limit.

People nailing jumps at a near perfect rate is 100% using it. Idgaf what they say.

This is sort of the point behind the idea. Imagine if there are actually people out there that are insane at jumps without macros yet people like yourself immediatly think they macro and diminish the effort they've put in.

I am not against macros per say. I am against people that use said macros but won't admit to it. As someone that is clearly in favor of jump macros would you not say that honesty around the use is the best step?

 

[HairyTreeMan]

and then for some reason you proceed to post the usual explanations as to why jump macros are OK to use.

I don't agree with many of your points but I have never claimed people who use jump macros are bad. Obviosly there's a lot more to jumping then the timing and no one that sets up a jump macro will become a jump god immediatly. I've never claimed these things in this post.

Obviously jump macros provide an advantage otherwise people wouldn't use them. Seems like we both agree on that. I would just love if the top dogs who don't rely on such macros can get some well deserved recognition for putting in the work.

This sort of reminds me of bodybuilding. I would never claim someone like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman (or others like them) haven't put in effort to get where they got even with steroid use. But I do feel like it hurts natural bodybuilders that are compared against people on roids yet pretend not to use them. Natural bodybuilders deserve credit for trying to reach the human limit. Roided bodybuilders deserve credit for taking it beyond the human limit.



This is sort of the point behind the idea. Imagine if there are actually people out there that are insane at jumps without macros yet people like yourself immediatly think they macro and diminish the effort they've put in.

I am not against macros per say. I am against people that use said macros but won't admit to it. As someone that is clearly in favor of jump macros would you not say that honesty around the use is the best step?

Once I get the sandbox set up, I'd happily stream myself comparing macro + non macro on all the jumps. I can talk through their uses and when I do/don't use the macro and why.

 

[Zimt]

wtf is a jump macro?

 

[macrogodx]

Once I get the sandbox set up, I'd happily stream myself comparing macro + non macro on all the jumps. I can talk through their uses and when I do/don't use the macro and why.

I'm unsure if this is in response to something I specifically said?

But if that's something you think there would be interrest in then go for it ?

Personally I don't see the point. The use of simple input timing macros such as forward + jump, strafe + jump or even backpedal + jump seem pretty self explanatory to me atleast. Any time you need a precise input, where pressing your movement key to soon or to late result in failure, will be where a jump macro is optimal. Then beyond that you can make another macro that repeatedly spams the inputs to quickly jump if you land on lets say a spike, so you don't even have to react and press the macro again or to traverse a hill which require lots of mini "pixel" jumps.

Beyond that it's simply a case of preference of when you choose to use them compared to manully timing it. How conviniently are your binds placed? How comfortable are you at pressing them in a given situation? and so on...

 

[Selaya]

This is not supposed to be a discussion about whether jump macros are cheating or “unfair”. The fact of the matter is that blizzard are unlikely to ban people using simple jump macros and we as a community lack the tools to expose those that use said macros but pretend not to.

Videos, clips, streamers and players in-game pulling off perfect jump after perfect jump while pretending not to use a jump macro creates unhealthy expectations for new players trying to improve their jump game. Even legitimate and experienced jumpers will unfairly be compared against illegitimate jumpers who rely on jump macros. If you’re legit and you want to share your gameplay, I feel like you deserve recognition for your skill and effort without being compared to someone on “roids”

It doesn’t matter how good you get. You’ll never be able to be 100% consistent with your forward jump timings, unless you use a jump macro, and that’s okay.

In other games, communities have worked together to create anti-cheat tools or something like it to encourage fair play. For some communities it’s even as simple as having a little overlay while streaming/recording, showing you’re running at the correct framerate, correct settings or something like that.

This leads me to my idea and why I’m looking for someone with programming experience.

The idea is to create an overlay that shows the timing of your jump inputs so that streamers, youtubers or others that wish to share their gameplay could have it on top of their game to show they’re legit. Tournament organizers could even encourage its competitors to stream or record with the overlay to prevent “cheating” if jump macros are deemed against the rules.

I have a little sample that shows what I mean in practice, and it seems to work well in showing the difference between human and macro generated inputs.

I know there is probably very little interest in such a thing especially with the popularity of jump macros. But if you’re like me maybe we can encourage more people to play without the macros or at least just promote honesty around the use of macro assisted gameplay.

Feel free to DM me or something if you have the will and know-how and wish to discuss this further.

and then for some reason you proceed to post the usual explanations as to why jump macros are OK to use.

I don't agree with many of your points but I have never claimed people who use jump macros are bad. Obviosly there's a lot more to jumping then the timing and no one that sets up a jump macro will become a jump god immediatly. I've never claimed these things in this post.

Obviously jump macros provide an advantage otherwise people wouldn't use them. Seems like we both agree on that. I would just love if the top dogs who don't rely on such macros can get some well deserved recognition for putting in the work.

This sort of reminds me of bodybuilding. I would never claim someone like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman (or others like them) haven't put in effort to get where they got even with steroid use. But I do feel like it hurts natural bodybuilders that are compared against people on roids yet pretend not to use them. Natural bodybuilders deserve credit for trying to reach the human limit. Roided bodybuilders deserve credit for taking it beyond the human limit.



This is sort of the point behind the idea. Imagine if there are actually people out there that are insane at jumps without macros yet people like yourself immediatly think they macro and diminish the effort they've put in.

I am not against macros per say. I am against people that use said macros but won't admit to it. As someone that is clearly in favor of jump macros would you not say that honesty around the use is the best step?

I'm unsure if this is in response to something I specifically said?

But if that's something you think there would be interrest in then go for it ?

Personally I don't see the point. The use of simple input timing macros such as forward + jump, strafe + jump or even backpedal + jump seem pretty self explanatory to me atleast. Any time you need a precise input, where pressing your movement key to soon or to late result in failure, will be where a jump macro is optimal. Then beyond that you can make another macro that repeatedly spams the inputs to quickly jump if you land on lets say a spike, so you don't even have to react and press the macro again or to traverse a hill which require lots of mini "pixel" jumps.

Beyond that it's simply a case of preference of when you choose to use them compared to manully timing it. How conviniently are your binds placed? How comfortable are you at pressing them in a given situation? and so on...

go troll somewhere else

 

[macrogodx]

go troll somewhere else

I find it a bit sad someone with the role of "Head Admin" such as yourself reads my post and is only able to respond with "go troll somewhere else". Am I a troll because I have an opinion that seem to go against the majority? Am I a troll because I'm a new user on this forum? Am I a troll for picking a name you think is trollish?

Macrogodx is just a random name that seemed fitting since I made this account with the intention of making a post regarding jump macros and dishonesty.

I would be interrested in hearing you pick out the parts you consider trolling and explaining your point of view. But I have to assume reacting with "" and a 4 word line is the best you can manage when you disagree with someone you don't know.

 

[Bestworld]

and then for some reason you proceed to post the usual explanations as to why jump macros are OK to use.

I don't agree with many of your points but I have never claimed people who use jump macros are bad. Obviosly there's a lot more to jumping then the timing and no one that sets up a jump macro will become a jump god immediatly. I've never claimed these things in this post.

Obviously jump macros provide an advantage otherwise people wouldn't use them. Seems like we both agree on that. I would just love if the top dogs who don't rely on such macros can get some well deserved recognition for putting in the work.

This sort of reminds me of bodybuilding. I would never claim someone like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman (or others like them) haven't put in effort to get where they got even with steroid use. But I do feel like it hurts natural bodybuilders that are compared against people on roids yet pretend not to use them. Natural bodybuilders deserve credit for trying to reach the human limit. Roided bodybuilders deserve credit for taking it beyond the human limit.



This is sort of the point behind the idea. Imagine if there are actually people out there that are insane at jumps without macros yet people like yourself immediatly think they macro and diminish the effort they've put in.

I am not against macros per say. I am against people that use said macros but won't admit to it. As someone that is clearly in favor of jump macros would you not say that honesty around the use is the best step?

I'm all for transparency.

My main points are about those who say they don't use it, but blatantly do.

I did jumps for years and years and years (both in and out of FC roles), and I can tell you with 100% certainty, once you build the experience, it's so easy to tell whether people are using a macro or not.

The concept is not whether they land "a" jump, it's about the consistency. A person can be legit the best payer in the entire game, a prodigy, savant, but if they are near a 100% consistency on a 1 frame gap jump and tell me they aren't using a macro, I'll call their bullshit instantly.

The thing here is that you don't just have a human aspect. The keyboard matters, as I also briefly touched in my original post. The keyboard has to be optimized enough to handle the manual inputs properly (which in itself is a more difficult find than you'd think). Often in times, these inputs have to be interpreted with a 0-1 frame delay by the software. This is for the 1 frame gap jumps.

 

[ZenwØw]

RE-ROLL DEMON HUNTER ?

 

[Selaya]

I find it a bit sad someone with the role of "Head Admin" such as yourself reads my post and is only able to respond with "go troll somewhere else". Am I a troll because I have an opinion that seem to go against the majority? Am I a troll because I'm a new user on this forum? Am I a troll for picking a name you think is trollish?

Macrogodx is just a random name that seemed fitting since I made this account with the intention of making a post regarding jump macros and dishonesty.

I would be interrested in hearing you pick out the parts you consider trolling and explaining your point of view. But I have to assume reacting with "" and a 4 word line is the best you can manage when you disagree with someone you don't know.

holier-than-thou whiteassknighting
suggesting a (soft-)ban on something that violates at least two of sirlin's criteria

 

[macrogodx]

I'm all for transparency.

and my idea is all about improving transparency

My main points are about those who say they don't use it, but blatantly do.

I did jumps for years and years and years (both in and out of FC roles), and I can tell you with 100% certainty, once you build the experience, it's so easy to tell whether people are using a macro or not.

I agree that you become better at spotting macro users, but I'm sure you have been mistaken about someone at some point whether you remember it or not. This it not just for experienced players either. I'm also refering to new players getting fooled and not being able to regonize that someone who is insane is actually using a macro. I remember creating a 19 twink for the first time meeting Xyth (on one of his random alts) in a bg. Xyth showed me the far ally gy jump, when I told him I found it hard, and he did like 100 perfectly timed jumps in a row. At that point I was rather inexperienced and thought wow this guy is amazing, how am I so bad at timing my jumps??? (I got big respect for Xyth btw, It feels like I'm watching someone surf or bhop from cs but in wow)

The concept is not whether they land "a" jump, it's about the consistency. A person can be legit the best payer in the entire game, a prodigy, savant, but if they are near a 100% consistency on a 1 frame gap jump and tell me they aren't using a macro, I'll call their bullshit instantly.

I pretty much wrote the same thing so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

The thing here is that you don't just have a human aspect. The keyboard matters, as I also briefly touched in my original post. The keyboard has to be optimized enough to handle the manual inputs properly (which in itself is a more difficult find than you'd think). Often in times, these inputs have to be interpreted with a 0-1 frame delay by the software. This is for the 1 frame gap jumps.

I'm not sure why you bringing this up either. It's not relevant. Please try to re-read my post and realise I don't want to prevent others from using the macros. It's entirely up to blizzard or others like them. In general you seem to have misunderstood the point of my post so I'm not sure what more to say to you.

holier-than-thou whiteassknighting

I think your putting more into my words than I am intending and getting needlessly upset over nothing

suggesting a (soft-)ban on something that violates at least two of sirlin's criteria

It would have been helpful if you once again could have written a bit more yourself instead of expecting me to read an entire blog post of some guy I don't know and don't really care about.

From a quick glance this seems to be about using in game bugs and glitches to your advantage and whether you should ban the use? or the player? again I just skimmed it so I'm unsure of the specifics.

This guy seems to have been working on fighting games? I wonder how he would feel if players started relying on 3rd party software to perform certain moves more easily in his games. Maybe he writes about this exact thing but I just missed it? It's late and as I said I only skimmed it.

I also don't want to ban the use of anything. I am not blizzard. I am not a tournament organizer. You seem to have misunderstood the entirety of my post.

This is not supposed to be a discussion about whether jump macros are cheating or “unfair”.

The fact of the matter is that blizzard are unlikely to ban people using simple jump macros

Tournament organizers could even encourage its competitors to stream or record with the overlay to prevent “cheating” if jump macros are deemed against the rules.

Is it any of these quotes that cause you to misunderstand my intention behind them and getting you riled up? or is it that I am refering to those who don't use macros as "legit" thus feeling like I'm making your achivements appear less legitimate somehow? That is not my intention. I'm sorry for making a lot of assumptions on your behalf, but I don't understand your hostility.

I watched a little of HairtyTreeMans stream (seems like a great guy btw) he used the word "natty" jumpers to refer to those that don't rely on macros. I can use that instead if you would prefer. I kinda like that expression anyway since it lines up well with my bodybuilding example

 

[Selaya]

> Criteria of a Ban
>> Enforceable
>> Discrete
>> Warranted

i'd argue it fails at least two of those ...
(also, the link is older than you, so yeah. lots things have changed since.)

anyways. you create a new account to post about a non-issue. that is per definition already trolling.
now, you could also be a sockpuppet, but that too would be the very definition of trolling.

 

[macrogodx]

> Criteria of a Ban
>> Enforceable
>> Discrete
>> Warranted

i'd argue it fails at least two of those ...
(also, the link is older than you, so yeah. lots things have changed since.)

anyways. you create a new account to post about a non-issue. that is per definition already trolling.
now, you could also be a sockpuppet, but that too would be the very definition of trolling.

You keep mentioning the word "Ban". Tell me what do you think it is that I want banned? I feel like I've stated multiple times now that I don't want anything banned.

This is my first account on xpoff. If I made the post in the wrong section maybe you can help me relocate it to where it belongs?

"non-issue" seems to be your opinion which is just as valid as my opinion Are xpoff members only allowed to post about stuff you deem worthy?

 

[Bestworld]

and my idea is all about improving transparency



I agree that you become better at spotting macro users, but I'm sure you have been mistaken about someone at some point whether you remember it or not. This it not just for experienced players either. I'm also refering to new players getting fooled and not being able to regonize that someone who is insane is actually using a macro. I remember creating a 19 twink for the first time meeting Xyth (on one of his random alts) in a bg. Xyth showed me the far ally gy jump, when I told him I found it hard, and he did like 100 perfectly timed jumps in a row. At that point I was rather inexperienced and thought wow this guy is amazing, how am I so bad at timing my jumps??? (I got big respect for Xyth btw, It feels like I'm watching someone surf or bhop from cs but in wow)



I pretty much wrote the same thing so I'm not sure why you bring it up.



I'm not sure why you bringing this up either. It's not relevant. Please try to re-read my post and realise I don't want to prevent others from using the macros. It's entirely up to blizzard or others like them. In general you seem to have misunderstood the point of my post so I'm not sure what more to say to you.



I think your putting more into my words than I am intending and getting needlessly upset over nothing



It would have been helpful if you once again could have written a bit more yourself instead of expecting me to read an entire blog post of some guy I don't know and don't really care about.

From a quick glance this seems to be about using in game bugs and glitches to your advantage and whether you should ban the use? or the player? again I just skimmed it so I'm unsure of the specifics.

This guy seems to have been working on fighting games? I wonder how he would feel if players started relying on 3rd party software to perform certain moves more easily in his games. Maybe he writes about this exact thing but I just missed it? It's late and as I said I only skimmed it.

I also don't want to ban the use of anything. I am not blizzard. I am not a tournament organizer. You seem to have misunderstood the entirety of my post.







Is it any of these quotes that cause you to misunderstand my intention behind them and getting you riled up? or is it that I am refering to those who don't use macros as "legit" thus feeling like I'm making your achivements appear less legitimate somehow? That is not my intention. I'm sorry for making a lot of assumptions on your behalf, but I don't understand your hostility.

I watched a little of HairtyTreeMans stream (seems like a great guy btw) he used the word "natty" jumpers to refer to those that don't rely on macros. I can use that instead if you would prefer. I kinda like that expression anyway since it lines up well with my bodybuilding example

Feel free to do whatever. It's your time and efforts.

But if I am being honest in terms of what this will actually do, is nothing. You'll have people who might use it, and they'll perform by the standards that any experienced player will expect out of someone who is not macroing.

OR

You'll have the people who say they don't macro, but do, and will still refuse to use your overlay, because why would they actively agree to defraud themselves?

That's the point.

New players will be amazed by practically anything at first. They'll be amazed by some consumable juiced up hunter rolling the other team and overlook the significance the impact that the consumables had, or how his team enabled him (just some arbitrary situation), simply because they lack the ability and bracket norms to properly dissect the gameplay, but hey, it looks cool and he's "owning".

It's up to the player(s) to be transparent or not, and a little research effort on the new players. The new players will soon realize for themselves as they gain experience, who's bullshitting and who's transparent. It's not 2004 anymore, the majority of players aren't overly secretive or cryptic about anything, and the info you can just straight up look up is massive.

 

[Selaya]

You keep mentioning the word "Ban". Tell me what do you think it is that I want banned? I feel like I've stated multiple times now that I don't want anything banned.

This is my first account on xpoff. If I made the post in the wrong section maybe you can help me relocate it to where it belongs?

"non-issue" seems to be your opinion which is just as valid as my opinion Are xpoff members only allowed to post about stuff you deem worthy?

i mean, if you don't want anything (soft-)banned (ie, frowned upon), why make a thread about a literal non-issue in the first place ... ?

 

[Chops]

This... strikes me as an oddly weird thing to worry about but then I'm unsure of the sort of norms and mores surrounding classic 19s

If a jump macro is commonly known, used, expected and doesnt violate tos, then isnt it just as legit as any other macro? Or should there also be an overlay that shows which healers are using mouse-overs to reduce their inputs, speed up their timing and improve their game?

 

[macrogodx]

You'll have the people who say they don't macro, but do, and will still refuse to use your overlay, because why would they actively agree to defraud themselves?

If someone claims to be legit, shares their content but refuses to provide proof of their legitimacy then that just makes them even more supicious which is good enough in my eyes

i mean, if you don't want anything (soft-)banned (ie, frowned upon), why make a thread about a literal non-issue in the first place ... ?

If you still haven't understood anything I have written so far I really don't see the point of explaining anything further to you. It took you this long to realise I'm not out to get anything or anyone banned and instead you have insulted me and been nothing but hostile.
[doublepost=1630795971,1630795813][/doublepost]

This... strikes me as an oddly weird thing to worry about but then I'm unsure of the sort of norms and mores surrounding classic 19s

If a jump macro is commonly known, used, expected and doesnt violate tos, then isnt it just as legit as any other macro? Or should there also be an overlay that shows which healers are using mouse-overs to reduce their inputs, speed up their timing and improve their game?

So a jump macro is the same as a mouse over macro? Moderators on this site seem quite special