Common Misconception? (armor value vs damage reduction)

Common Misconception? (armor value vs damage reduction)

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glancealot

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is this scrub alone or is this a common misconception?



TL;DR version



from elitist jerks forums.



# There is some confusion about "diminishing returns" on armor. The DR given by armor follows a diminishing-return curve, so the higher your DR is, the more armor is required to increase it by 1%. However, the value of each extra point of DR increases as your DR increases. For example, consider an attack that does 10,000 physical damage before armor is considered:



* If your armor DR is 50% and you increase it to 51%, the damage done by the attack is reduced from 5,000 to 4,900, a 2% reduction.

* If your armor DR is 60% and you increase it to 61%, the damage done by the attack is reduced from 4,000 to 3,900, a 2.5% reduction.



So, even though your DR% will increase more slowly as you add more and more armor, each extra point of armor is providing roughly the same relative benefit. Hence, increasing your armor is always worthwhile. (For a more detailed explanation with math and such, see Quigon's Protection Warrior Guide.)

# The important thing to remember is that while your character sheet shows the changes in the absolute value of your DR, your healers will see the relative change in your DR. For example, if you go from 60.0% DR to 64.0% DR, your character sheet only shows a 4% increase, but your healers will notice you taking 10% less damage. (Actually they'll see even more than that when blocks are factored in.)
 
edit:

what a load of bullshit I wrote,

yes, is scales with lifetime exactly the way your health pool scales with lifetime :)
 
The system is set up such that the same numerical increase in armor count will provide the same benefit in terms of TIME LIVED, or effective health. As armor increases, time lived while taking physical damage increases in a linear fasion. If we didnt have DR on armor, we'd see each point of armor, while providing the same % reduction, become *more* valuable with each point of armor we already had.



Basically, armor increases your lifetime against physical attacks. If thats something you want in your twink, by all means, go for it. But stacking armor to the exclusion of other stats just isnt smart - armor gives you nothing when you arent being attacked, and is usless against magical damage. At least stamina stacking provides benefit against incoming magic damage.
 
Great post, Armor stacking is my favorite hobbies even at the expense of some stamina becuase I don't like rogues or hunters to see big numbers.



I agree with the OP and Underseer it does depend on how you look at it. Effective HP will be higher at this level by stacking stamina more than armor.
 
Alkaholic said:
In some cases stats >>> armor. I redid the profile and u gain 60 sp, 500 mana, 100 hp. 18 stam >>> shield spike unless u're a prot paladin. Even warriors take 18 stam.



Your profile: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Better profile: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner



a, the only viable mainhand for a BE 1h paladin in this bracket IMO is either:



1, this with lifeward, this procs very oftenor black magic(50% chance to apply a 1000 dmg dot, keep em pesky rogues away.



or



2, fist of the damned with 43 spell power.



b, shield spike is very nice imo, AT LEAST on paper.



c, you have 700 less armor, bad.



you have no freezing band, which is a MUST-HAVE imo.
 
??? WAT?



- Melee procs? Really? On a healadin? Black magic has an internal cooldown of 45 secs. Lifeward is nice but it's a melee proc on a HEALADIN! Why is a fist of the damned better than Arbirter's Blade or BoA mace? Please enlighten me on that. Also, post ur 49 paladin that u have tested ur wacked out theory on.



- Shield spike vs 18 stam. 180 stam vs
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only when u block. Cause that 5% block is gonna have u pumping out mad DPS as a Holy paladin?



- 700 armor = 4% more physical dmg reduction vs 60 sp, 100 hp, 500 mana, 1% crit, 2% hit. That's not comparable not even close. One side protects u vs all classes and helps dmg/heals while the other reduces a 1500 Ambush by an extra 42 dmg. OMG, game breaking.



- Int > SP for holy paladins thanks to Holy Guidance. Stam > dmg reduction in this bracket. Freezing band isn't better even for a glass cannon Holy paladin.
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is better and so is
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.
 
Alkaholic said:
??? WAT?



- Melee procs? Really? On a healadin? Black magic has an internal cooldown of 45 secs. Lifeward is nice but it's a melee proc on a HEALADIN! Why is a fist of the damned better than Arbirter's Blade or BoA mace? Please enlighten me on that. Also, post ur 49 paladin that u have tested ur wacked out theory on.



- Shield spike vs 18 stam. 180 stam vs
Code:
only when u block. Cause that 5% block is gonna have u pumping out mad DPS as a Holy paladin?



- 700 armor = 4% more physical dmg reduction vs 60 sp, 100 hp, 500 mana, 1% crit, 2% hit. That's not comparable not even close. One side protects u vs all classes and helps dmg/heals while the other reduces a 1500 Ambush by an extra 42 dmg. OMG, game breaking.



- Int > SP for holy paladins thanks to Holy Guidance. Stam > dmg reduction in this bracket. Freezing band isn't better even for a glass cannon Holy paladin.
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is better and so is
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.



i ll just let someone else correct you here....you are beyond my reach buddy...
 
Or u can dodge the facts, I'm not the only one that disagrees w/ u. Nice theorycrafting though.



1500 Ambush from n00bspec rogue.

4700 armor reduces the Ambush to 753.

4000 armor reduces the Ambush to 795.



U really believe that it's worth the loss of all those stats? I'm not saying completely get rid of plate in favor of other stats but come on...



U don't have
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so I see no way how Shield Spike would be better than 18 stam or 15 int.



U offer no reasoning behind Fist of Damned, even w/ 100% SP contribution, it doesn't proc often enough to warrant preference over Arbirter Blade or BoA mace.
 
Actually, I'd agree with Alkaholic. With a few exceptions, of course :)



Black Magic is REALLY nice for an offensive shockadin. 2-3 spells and it *will* proc, then switch back to arbiters Blade.



Melee procs, Lifeward, and Fist of the Damned are all pretty poor choices. The Min/Max'r will have them for a melee set, but you'll still want an arbiters/BoA mace when you're doing YOUR ACTUALY PRIMARY ROLE, healing.



Freezing Band is pretty awesome. The base healing on pally spells is fairly low, so stacking SP is really benficial. I would use Cyclopean only if I needed the hit rating to cap (which your profile does), and wouldnt ever use Eye of Org over Freezing. The proc (and the resists) are far better than the measly ~120 mana.



And again, I'd agree, 700 armor (4% reduction) is in NO WAY superior to 50 sp, 50 hp, 500+ mana, and hitcap.
 
nobody really disagreed with you in that pwndepot thread. It seemed that they all understood that 7% DR isn't from damage you would otherwise take, but from damage you would take with no armor (which accounts for "armor diminishing returns"). They know it's linear...and even so, they still think that what's lost is more important than 700 armor. And I agree with them.
 
glancealot said:
i ll just let someone else correct you here....you are beyond my reach buddy...



Still waiting on someone else to correct him.....anyone? It seems that you (glancealot) are beyond reach.



Bringing opposing viewpoints is good, such as doing the math for increased armor over other stats. I actually appreciate when people do that since I'm way too lazy. Refusing to accept that it just isn't as viable is dumb (I'm not saying increased armor isn't viable at all). You were proved wrong at pwndepot and you came here to receive validation, but unfortunately your suggestion is still not viable.



Reminds me of the Wall of the Dead vs Gizlock's thread where you refused to acknowledge other people's opinion and resorted to calling out armory W/L ratios. Honestly, you need to grow up a little.
 
Ok sooo, can you clarify the poll question a bit for me?



I read through the thread on both sites and I really cant see why someone would take 700 armor over the said stats.



Is Axelle, Glancealot?
 
Theorycrafting has always been nice, such as this discussion about armor DRs, however I still don't find it viable for this build.



Black Magic is pretty good for an offensive paladin, however your primary goal should be healing. I've always been a firm believer that if you're watching for a Black Magic to proc just to switch out your weapon, you're probably not paying attention to something else important that might be going on in the field. Playing a shockadin is fun, but if that's your primary goal, then you're really letting your team down in general.



There are many classes in which you meleeing them for health instead of kiting them so they can't hit you will screw you over. I'm not sure about your fascination with Fist of the Damned, but it's really not that good, even when spellpower stacked. Especially for a paladin...



Freezing Band is actually pretty great in a pinch against melee. The proc itself isn't the most reliable, but it's a nice stun if you're group healing. If you are flag carrying, I'd go with Deadman's Hand no questions there.
 
It seems like everyone is in agreement here and that is support in general by how you see most Holly Pallys closer to Alk's build.



That said using one freezing band would be ok, but use the Cyc as the send would be optimal.



The shield spike, there isnt even a reason to discuss that for a Holly Pally. Same for the weapon, I cant see anyone that the Fist is BiS for.



However if that is your build go for it, it is your twink and you should most def build it and play it the way you want. Just dont insult other people when they dont think it is not the most optimal set up. At the very least back it up with some numbers or theory. Make us believe!!
 
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