Classic 39 rogue BIS

[Medan]

Hello.

Bold statement including "BIS" in title, as "real life" BG testing has not been done in Classic, yet, and several people will have different thoughts.
Some might feel like rogues need high AP and crit in order to kill the target in the opener.
Some might want to go "glass cannon ambush" with a friend and destroy EFC in a global.
Both are valid, and there are more valid builds.

Under is my build for a balanced rogue whos goal is to work well in a team, against a team. Disagree? Lets discuss it

https://sixtyupgrades.com/set/r7rD5EZnXAnVQQoTzwGCkx

As you can see, after my name I have written "Str=1, Agi=2, Stam=2.67" and the gear follow those stat values. (gear changes at str/ap +40% value and if you change stam=2)
I will try to explain questions that might arise, so:

Stamina:
Stam is king in pvp. Having a lot helps against burst, which is key. Its also important to give healers enough time to heal you. But obviously you also need offensive stats.

Why stam=2.67 and not just = 2 or =2.5 or 3 for that matter:
-Better then saying things like Stam=agi when over.. 2.5k HP (random number)
-Items with "of stamina" sacrifice too many stats (but further testing needed)
Deciding factor for .67: -Wing of the Whelpling or tigerstrike mantle (I prefer the stam on Wing, but if stam=agi then tigerstrike is better. I think they are equal, so 3stam>=4 agi)

Strenght and Agi:
1 Strenght = 1ap for rogues
1 Agi = 0.058% crit, 1 ap, 0.115% dodge and 2 armor.
Because of this I value agi at 2 and strenght at 1 (gear only changes when str and ap is valued 40% higher, asuming stamina is still 2.67)

What about str/ap = 1.5 (instead of 1) and Stam = 2 (instead of 2.67) aka more dps:
Go for it, WTS Quillward harness @ Mograine.

Other stuff:
Weapons change if macespec works.
Hand of Righteousness is a good choice until you get wsg sword
Im gonna try both sub (because of prep) and combat swords/maces. Prep helps transport flag in WSG and helps towards ninjaing bases in AB (++), combat swords is obv higher dps.
Unsure about offhand enchant.
Not listing trinkets, you should swap between several.

Questions or comments? Lets discuss

 

[Swoops]

Under is my build for a balanced rogue whos goal is to work well in a team, against a team. Disagree? Lets discuss it

https://sixtyupgrades.com/character/5ShQRtW1ycNCphSAQm1pFx/set/omkcNEgTbejkTDEKcanTv4

The link here doesn't work for me, might be an account-specific profile link?

I've also seen some suffix items with higher than available stats on sixtyupgrades. I don't think the wowhead gear planner can auto-fill items based on stat weights, but it seems a bit more reliable for gear that's actually available.

 

[tonybones]

Link does not work

 

[Medan]

The link here doesn't work for me, might be an account-specific profile link?

I've also seen some suffix items with higher than available stats on sixtyupgrades. I don't think the wowhead gear planner can auto-fill items based on stat weights, but it seems a bit more reliable for gear that's actually available.

Link should now be working, sorry about that

By suffix you mean things like "of the monkey" being rolled as example 7 stam 7 agi when it can only be 7 of one and 6 of the other? If so, then yes I have seen this as well (I haven't avoided those items, but they are still not present in this gearplanner)

I really like the way "sixtyupgrades" lets you set a stat value and filters trough everything with that in mind, as well as tell you how off the alternatives are

Link does not work

Link should now be working, sorry about that

 

[cyber]

for a 2.2 speed OH i would get Nordic Longshank if you are horde.

 

[Happypanda]

If the conversation's limited to phase 3 then; https://classic.wowhead.com/gear-set/hemo-x-rogue-13291

Swampwalkers / Warden's Wraps as you prefer.
Weapon A / Weapon B as you prefer.

As for the notion of a 39 combat rogue, probably decent 1v1. But actually not playable, hunters with Catseye Ultra Goggles will be scatter shotting you from 15 yards away.

(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...7aUN3EGfJAbPKO7V9baEsAXv8/edit#gid=2080441147)

 

[Medan]

for a 2.2 speed OH i would get Nordic Longshank if you are horde.

You know what, I prefer vanquisher slightly over nordic longshank, but nordic longshank brings me over 3k with food buff so I might just change to it.

If the conversation's limited to phase 3 then; https://classic.wowhead.com/gear-set/hemo-x-rogue-13291

Swampwalkers / Warden's Wraps as you prefer.
Weapon A / Weapon B as you prefer.

As for the notion of a 39 combat rogue, probably decent 1v1. But actually not playable, hunters with Catseye Ultra Goggles will be scatter shotting you from 15 yards away.

(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...7aUN3EGfJAbPKO7V9baEsAXv8/edit#gid=2080441147)

Some times they will yes, but as you indirectly say: This is not a 1v1, other people play a factor as well.
That being said, sub with prep was the go to build for a long time, Im having combat as an option because Im not sure how it will perform. Edit: Perfrom in classic

 

[Warglave]

Im having combat as an option because Im not sure how it will perform.

I'm going to give mace spec a go for a bit, just because. Currently leveling to 60 as sword and am not impressed at all.

Will likely revert to hemo, but why not have some fun first?

edit- speaking of..... are diminishing returns set to kick in anytime soon? Or are we gonna get to CC forever for a while?

 

[Medan]

I'm going to give mace spec a go for a bit, just because. Currently leveling to 60 as sword and am not impressed at all.

Will likely revert to hemo, but why not have some fun first?

edit- speaking of..... are diminishing returns set to kick in anytime soon? Or are we gonna get to CC forever for a while?

Hey, yeah Im also gonna try mace spec (ambush rogue at the start before ppl have BIS gear). Glad Im horde and wont have to fight orcs.
CC has diminishing returns already (only tested sheep)

 

[Outofspace]

Hemo is definitely the build to run, nothing else comes close. The gearing people have offered is pretty on the nose, but I'd posit a few changes. Also worth noting that 15 Agi to gloves and Improved Stealth on cloak aren't available anytime soon. My builds are always based on current content.

Zero rep BiS Rogue

 

[Medan]

Hemo is definitely the build to run, nothing else comes close. The gearing people have offered is pretty on the nose, but I'd posit a few changes. Also worth noting that 15 Agi to gloves and Improved Stealth on cloak aren't available anytime soon. My builds are always based on current content.

Zero rep BiS Rogue

Hey.
Yeah those enchants are a good while off, but so are BGs so I just added them. But nice to have current content enchants listed as well

Id love to discuss your stat weights if you are up for it (I have Strenght=1 Agi=2 and Stam = 2.67)

I believ strenght easily could be worth more, but not more then 1.3. Iv considered lower values on agi and stam, but not by much. You, however have stam a lot lower then me, so ye, Im interested in your thoughts if you would share them

I dont know you, and this is not a personal attack. I like to discuss 39 rogue and you wrote in my post so I comment, with respect, on your build. You pick "Kaleidoscope Chain" 4stam 4agi 4strenght over "Gazlow charm" 11stam 4 strenght. Difference beeing 7stam vs 4 agility. You would rather have 4 agility over 7 stam, but you chose 100 HP libram (lets call it 10 stam right now) over 8 agility.

 

[Outofspace]

Yeah that's a fair point, I'd say the Charm over the Chain makes sense. The simple answer is that one slot of 7 stam vs 4 agi isn't a very big commitment for some extra offense, whereas 16 agi vs 200 HP is a big swing. Still though I think you're correct that the Charm prevails.

100 HP to chest vs +4 all is probably a tighter example; they are pretty much dead even, and in those cases I favor offensive stats.

 

[Strokes]

Hey.
Yeah those enchants are a good while off, but so are BGs so I just added them. But nice to have current content enchants listed as well

Id love to discuss your stat weights if you are up for it (I have Strenght=1 Agi=2 and Stam = 2.67)

I believ strenght easily could be worth more, but not more then 1.3. Iv considered lower values on agi and stam, but not by much. You, however have stam a lot lower then me, so ye, Im interested in your thoughts if you would share them

I dont know you, and this is not a personal attack. I like to discuss 39 rogue and you wrote in my post so I comment, with respect, on your build. You pick "Kaleidoscope Chain" 4stam 4agi 4strenght over "Gazlow charm" 11stam 4 strenght. Difference beeing 7stam vs 4 agility. You would rather have 4 agility over 7 stam, but you chose 100 HP libram (lets call it 10 stam right now) over 8 agility.

The amount of stats on gear are so little at 39 that changing the weights by tenths of a decimal doesn't really affect much. Basically the only slots you have any real choice are shoulders / chest / neck and whether or not you want to go tiger or monkey on all your random affix gear.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10774/fleshhide-shoulders vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=7755/flintrock-shoulders
Flintrock are definitely better once you can slap a Naxx enchant on them.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14601/wardens-wraps vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13110/wolffear-harness vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10583/quillward-harness

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13088/gazlowes-charm vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13084/kaleidoscope-chain

 

[Medan]

Yeah that's a fair point, I'd say the Charm over the Chain makes sense. The simple answer is that one slot of 7 stam vs 4 agi isn't a very big commitment for some extra offense, whereas 16 agi vs 200 HP is a big swing. Still though I think you're correct that the Charm prevails.

100 HP to chest vs +4 all is probably a tighter example; they are pretty much dead even, and in those cases I favor offensive stats.

The amount of stats on gear are so little at 39 that changing the weights by tenths of a decimal doesn't really affect much. Basically the only slots you have any real choice are shoulders / chest / neck and whether or not you want to go tiger or monkey on all your random affix gear.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10774/fleshhide-shoulders vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=7755/flintrock-shoulders
Flintrock are definitely better once you can slap a Naxx enchant on them.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=14601/wardens-wraps vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13110/wolffear-harness vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10583/quillward-harness

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13088/gazlowes-charm vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13084/kaleidoscope-chain

EDIT: How do you link items like you do?

Hey.
"hanging the weights by tenths of a decimal" (I have stam at 2.67 for others reading)
-Yeah, I put it like this so "Wing of the Whelpling" would be equal stat weight to "Tigerstrike Mantle". I think the extra stam is worth it, but I know people will disagree on that (Iv previously had 2agi=2stam, but I pref a little more HP). the .67 means stam is 33% more worth then agility to me (so 3stam=4agility). People can insert the same stat values I use and easily see pointwise difference between gear. Hopefully people post their own stat values so I can check their builds as well (interesting to see how high people value strenght/ap for instance)

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11858/battlehard-cape is another very interesting item for those valuing ap and stam, as well as https://classic.wowhead.com/item=9401/nordic-longshank vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10823/vanquishers-sword for those valuing stamina (Currently Im actually leaning towards Nordic)

You also have https://classic.wowhead.com/item=867/gloves-of-holy-might depending on how high u set dps values compared to stam (I havent done the numbers but if someone values Kaleido over gazlowe Im guessing they should also value GoHM over Arachnid using the same stat values)


Regarding naxx enchants: Got some Flintrock wating, ZG first Im inconsistent in not adding enchanted shoulders in the BIS list, still think Im gonna keep it this way (ZG enchant was attatched with a mailbox exploit, same with Aldor/Scryer shoulders, was naxx shoulder enchants? or could you put them on like a libram enchant?)

 

[Outofspace]

EDIT: How do you link items like you do?

Hey.
"hanging the weights by tenths of a decimal" (I have stam at 2.67 for others reading)
-Yeah, I put it like this so "Wing of the Whelpling" would be equal stat weight to "Tigerstrike Mantle". I think the extra stam is worth it, but I know people will disagree on that (Iv previously had 2agi=2stam, but I pref a little more HP). the .67 means stam is 33% more worth then agility to me (so 3stam=4agility). People can insert the same stat values I use and easily see pointwise difference between gear. Hopefully people post their own stat values so I can check their builds as well (interesting to see how high people value strenght/ap for instance)

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11858/battlehard-cape is another very interesting item for those valuing ap and stam, as well as https://classic.wowhead.com/item=9401/nordic-longshank vs https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10823/vanquishers-sword for those valuing stamina (Currently Im actually leaning towards Nordic)

You also have https://classic.wowhead.com/item=867/gloves-of-holy-might depending on how high u set dps values compared to stam (I havent done the numbers but if someone values Kaleido over gazlowe Im guessing they should also value GoHM over Arachnid using the same stat values)


Regarding naxx enchants: Got some Flintrock wating, ZG first Im inconsistent in not adding enchanted shoulders in the BIS list, still think Im gonna keep it this way (ZG enchant was attatched with a mailbox exploit, same with Aldor/Scryer shoulders, was naxx shoulder enchants? or could you put them on like a libram enchant?)

Twinkers don't bother much with stat weights past the decimal point. There's really not much reason to go deeper since gear is so limited. Just as Strokes pointed out, we're talking about 3 slots where there's good sidegrade options. Personally I fiddle with the stat weights on Sixytupgrades just to deploy a reasonable set at the beginning and for sidegrade searching. In other words they are rough estimates and that's all you need.

There's a fantastic discussion going on right now about 39 Holy Paladins that involves some of the deeper theory crafting I've seen in a while. You won't see any mention of stat weighting formulas - they just aren't very useful once you have a basic grasp of what stats do for your class.

EDIT: I think I misremembered, ZG enchants do have to be glitched on, but Naxx enchants apply like a Libram iirc.

 

[Medan]

Twinkers don't bother much with stat weights past the decimal point. There's really not much reason to go deeper since gear is so limited. Just as Strokes pointed out, we're talking about 3 slots where there's good sidegrade options. Personally I fiddle with the stat weights on Sixytupgrades just to deploy a reasonable set at the beginning and for sidegrade searching. In other words they are rough estimates and that's all you need.

I think its interesting, but Im a nerd regarding 39 rogue.

There's a fantastic discussion going on right now about 39 Holy Paladins that involves some of the deeper theory crafting I've seen in a while.

Yeah Im reading most of whats posted at 39.

You won't see any mention of stat weighting formulas - they just aren't very useful once you have a basic grasp of what stats do for your class.

Well you have more then a basic grasp, with stat weights you would have seen irregularity with 100HP libram>8agi and 7stam<4agi. (with respect)

BTW Naxx and ZG enchants go on an item in your inventory and they don't soulbind, making them 100% legit.

nice, I guess they changed that at some point after classic then

 

[Warglave]

CC has diminishing returns already (only tested sheep)

You mean like in a duel? Because in PvE im not seein it.... which is OK cus broken is only fun for so long.

 

[Outofspace]

nice, I guess they changed that at some point after classic then

Thinking about it today, I think I got it wrong. ZG enchants do have to be glitched, but Naxx work like Librams I believe.

 

[Strokes]

Thinking about it today, I think I got it wrong. ZG enchants do have to be glitched, but Naxx work like Librams I believe.

You could apply ZG shoulder enchants to BoA gear.

The break > unsoulbind bug was around at the time, but there was really no point to use ZG librams for it when you could apply the 70/80 head enchants and 55stam leg patches.

The enchant > trade bug still exists on retail iirc. I have no reason to believe it wouldn't work with ZG librams, but there aren't many soulbinding enchants to practice with. It'll be an expensive mistake if you brick the trade.

 

[Crazytwinkaddict]

Hello.

Bold statement including "BIS" in title, as "real life" BG testing has not been done in Classic, yet, and several people will have different thoughts.
Some might feel like rogues need high AP and crit in order to kill the target in the opener.
Some might want to go "glass cannon ambush" with a friend and destroy EFC in a global.
Both are valid, and there are more valid builds.

Under is my build for a balanced rogue whos goal is to work well in a team, against a team. Disagree? Lets discuss it

https://sixtyupgrades.com/set/r7rD5EZnXAnVQQoTzwGCkx

As you can see, after my name I have written "Str=1, Agi=2, Stam=2.67" and the gear follow those stat values. (gear changes at str/ap +40% value and if you change stam=2)
I will try to explain questions that might arise, so:

Stamina:
Stam is king in pvp. Having a lot helps against burst, which is key. Its also important to give healers enough time to heal you. But obviously you also need offensive stats.

Why stam=2.67 and not just = 2 or =2.5 or 3 for that matter:
-Better then saying things like Stam=agi when over.. 2.5k HP (random number)
-Items with "of stamina" sacrifice too many stats (but further testing needed)
Deciding factor for .67: -Wing of the Whelpling or tigerstrike mantle (I prefer the stam on Wing, but if stam=agi then tigerstrike is better. I think they are equal, so 3stam>=4 agi)

Strenght and Agi:
1 Strenght = 1ap for rogues
1 Agi = 0.058% crit, 1 ap, 0.115% dodge and 2 armor.
Because of this I value agi at 2 and strenght at 1 (gear only changes when str and ap is valued 40% higher, asuming stamina is still 2.67)

What about str/ap = 1.5 (instead of 1) and Stam = 2 (instead of 2.67) aka more dps:
Go for it, WTS Quillward harness @ Mograine.

Other stuff:
Weapons change if macespec works.
Hand of Righteousness is a good choice until you get wsg sword
Im gonna try both sub (because of prep) and combat swords/maces. Prep helps transport flag in WSG and helps towards ninjaing bases in AB (++), combat swords is obv higher dps.
Unsure about offhand enchant.
Not listing trinkets, you should swap between several.

Questions or comments? Lets discuss

I got the exact same gear as you apart from head. My friend you should be having the +35stamina eyepatch.

I'm also using combat spec dual crusader legionnaire's & vanquishers
and battlehard cloak / defiler's belt

I have tried all possible enchants and it's hard to tell what's the best. The only I haven't tried is 5 dmg / 15 agility which sounds good to me since riposte would benefit from +5 dmg enchant.

What's your opinion on that?