Class Burst Damage Defined?

Grabco

OG
Saw something on the rogue DPS calculator thread about defining "burst" damage. How would you define burst damage in general and how would this relate to each classes burst potential.



I'll start with a crude definition and hopefully you will help me refine this:



Burst damage should be defined by the amount of quick damage a class can do in a defined amount of time. This should also be damage that can be unresponded to or difficult to respond to. Not all classes will have burst damage capabilities. The hardest thing to define is the window of time the burst of damage can occur. If you think of troll or orc racial durations, weapon procs like crusader. Global cool downs should also be taken into account when defining a burst window 1GCD, 2GCDs?



When I think of burst damage I think of a rogues abush crit followed by a few sinister strikes, or the amount of damage a pally can dish out with 1 autoattack/seal damage, judgment/seal damage. Hunters can also dish out a lot of burst damage but also have the ability to deal lot of damage the longer they are on you which is why I would like to define a window of time a burst can occur



Maximum damage is not the same thing as burst damage but they can be related. Not all classes will be able to "Burst" down opponents. Priests and mages have very little burst potential and locks also have little burst potential (although they do deal a lot of damage) Although damage over time abilities can inflict a lot of damage they should be excluded from the definition of burst damage.
 
glass cannon fire mages are the definition of true 19 burst.

Rogue burst has really changed over the years, especially now, its more highend consistent damage than wtf crits. Also few people still use daggers anymore too.
 
Grabco said:
Saw something on the rogue DPS calculator thread about defining "burst" damage. How would you define burst damage in general and how would this relate to each classes burst potential.



I'll start with a crude definition and hopefully you will help me refine this:



Burst damage should be defined by the amount of quick damage a class can do in a defined amount of time. This should also be damage that can be unresponded to or difficult to respond to. Not all classes will have burst damage capabilities. The hardest thing to define is the window of time the burst of damage can occur. If you think of troll or orc racial durations, weapon procs like crusader. Global cool downs should also be taken into account when defining a burst window 1GCD, 2GCDs?



When I think of burst damage I think of a rogues abush crit followed by a few sinister strikes, or the amount of damage a pally can dish out with 1 autoattack/seal damage, judgment/seal damage. Hunters can also dish out a lot of burst damage but also have the ability to deal lot of damage the longer they are on you which is why I would like to define a window of time a burst can occur



Maximum damage is not the same thing as burst damage but they can be related. Not all classes will be able to "Burst" down opponents. Priests and mages have very little burst potential and locks also have little burst potential (although they do deal a lot of damage) Although damage over time abilities can inflict a lot of damage they should be excluded from the definition of burst damage.
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I personally describe a Burst Window as being 10 seconds at the most, or the period of time in which damage per second is at its peak before cooldowns on abilities/running out of resource dramatically drops your DPS.



I say 10 seconds at the most since that's the max duration on a single CC, and thus the window of opportunity to "Burst" down while a Healer is CC'd once. I'll refer to this as the "CC Burst Window".



You then have a "Responsive Burst Window" or the window of opportunity that results from the typical amount of time it takes a player to notice something is wrong and respond with something substantial to counteract it such as cast a heal or CC. The presence of any instant cast "True" CC, Stuns or an immune effect substantially reduces this window of Opportunity as they reduce your DPS to zero and will render you helpless to respond as your target or your targets allies make a substantial response to counteract your damage while you are CC'd. Instant casting Roots and snares also reduce this window of opportunity as melee, but not as dramatically as you can still squeeze out some damage while they are trying to get away.



I would say that Max Burst Potential should include any DoTs you preemptively cast on your target as preparation to your burst combo as they do contribute damage during your burst combo's duration while often doing too little damage on their own to warrant a substantial response prior to the Burst Combo. I often include my Serpent Stings, Immolation Traps and Pet Damage when calculating my Burst Combo damage as I would prepare them before hand when preparing to launch a burst combo.



"Burst Potential" is what I describe the typical High End of the damage range you can expect during a Burst Combo... that's not to say that you should calculate Burst Potential by assuming that all critable attacks made during the burst combo will land as crits, though it is safe to calculate Burst Potential assuming that any special attack that receives substantial Crit Chance bonuses through talents (Such as Backstab, Mongoose Bite or Raptor Strike) will be crits.



"Burst Kill Range" is something I've been using to describe the amount of health a target would have upon which I would make a judgment call to use a burst combo based on knowledge of my typical burst damage range... it should also affect your decision on which cooldowns you are willing to use to boost your Burst Potential in preparation for the kill if it's a low priority target. For example, if a Rogue is at 400 HP and you know your burst combo can do damage in the 500 damage range without popping damage increasing cooldowns, popping your Orc Racial can be seen as a waste. Burst Kill Range should be divided into many different categories to reflect armor classes and presence of on demand Damage Reduction or HoTs as well as your own damage increasing cooldowns and procs.
 
I always looked at burst as 1gcd and an auto attack at either/both sides for melee,

Mage + shaman I look at as big cast + insta

rest I couldn't really call bursty, apart from hunters being same as melee^



Excuse my english, I'm english.
 
Nype said:
I always looked at burst as 1gcd and an auto attack at either/both sides for melee,

Mage + shaman I look at as big cast + insta

rest I couldn't really call bursty, apart from hunters being same as melee^



Excuse my english, I'm english.
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You have a few GCD's worth of time to get in some burst before a person can figure out something's wrong. If you ever tried ganking a player as Subtlety in World/BG PvP, you'd understand the typical 1-2 seconds it takes for the gankee to even realize that they aren't alone, much less being attacked.



In the chaotic nature of BG PvP, you have a few seconds opening before your target or any nearby healers/CCers realizes that someone is taking significant amounts of damage and a few seconds more to get any real healing directed at said person.



Your typical 19s Hunter will probably be Autoshot + Multi-shot + Arcane Shot + Auto Shot as their standard 3 Second Burst Combo with 2 Serpent Sting ticks, 2 Pet Melee + Maybe 3 Bite/Claws if they micromanage their pet. 2 Immolation Trap ticks may also be available in this 3 second burst combo. Pet Bite/Claws counts are quite variable depending on the player in question or the pet in question.
 
I dk if I would put 10s as the window for burst. I haven't done a BG without the opposite side having a mage since i FC'd to horde. Taking that into account I can't condone more than 5 seconds at most and an average of 3. (coming from a rogues perspective, especially taking into account grab's mage)
 
Crilicilyn said:
I dk if I would put 10s as the window for burst. I haven't done a BG without the opposite side having a mage since i FC'd to horde. Taking that into account I can't condone more than 5 seconds at most and an average of 3. (coming from a rogues perspective, especially taking into account grab's mage)
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It's why I describe the "CC Burst Window" as 10 seconds "At the most".



However, I did forget to mention times in seconds for the "Responsive Burst Window"... I've found that sorta Burst Window was usually is 3-5 seconds... often dependent on the target's skill/responsiveness as well as the class in question or nearby allies.
 
i agree on most of what people say. to me burst damage is the amount of damage you can inflict before cooldowns happens. but that alone is not enough because of the rotations, one could go on and on just because rotations are calculated cooldown timing. so i'd add to it, the fact that the opponent takes a few second to respond to you.



so burst to me is this...

time before totation ends (cooldowns)

with time for the victim to react to you.



exemple...

i have a mage, i fireball, cast another one and then a third.

the opponent clearly has time to receive the first two. then the third might come up, after that i am forced to switch strategies because my opponent at that point will be close to me and that cannot be held there.



so that little amount of time was my burst, because the opponent hadn't have time to react to.



thats whats i call burst damage.
 
CC burst window at 10s makes perfect sense for classes with their own CC, but pallies would be about 8s for pallies if no hammer and rogues at 5s if no sprint. Responsive burst I think in general its agreeable at 3-5s
 
I actually have a few screen caps of 3-4 second burst combos from prior to the XP free BGs.



http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/ConvictRose/640in3-4.jpg

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/ConvictRose/750in3-4.jpg



Please pardon the vanity pic in this last one, I had just gotten my fishing cap and I was damned proud of it.



http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/ConvictRose/MeleeCombo2.jpg



But yeah, I had to sort through all sorts of combat screen options to get it set up as I wanted (Showing damage dealt by me, by my dots, by my pet + pet abilities, and have time tags attached to them).
 
I define burst damage as the uninterrupted period of time in which a player's damage outdoes either an opponent's healing, shield, or counter-damage. While this time period can vary greatly by class, gear, and situation, the idea remains consistent: how much damage can you do before your opponent(s) can respond beyond simply slowing down your dps?



Here's a simple way to measure burst damage: from the beginning of a fight, how much damage can you do before your opponent could fire off an AGM? That's your burst damage.



Bwappo
 
burst damage (buwrs-damn-itch) - damage done by one or more players to one opponent that is too high in a time frame that is too short for the opponent to outheal the incoming damage, CC the damage dealers, dispell the damaging debuffs, LoS, or escape the incoming damage in any other way before serious advantage has been gained by the attackers.
 
I'll see your definition and raise you this:

The amount of damage you take from Crilicilyn while he is high and not repacking a new bowl.
 
but that description means dots are burst damage, but since they are long term damage, i wouldn't call them burst.



burst for me is the amount you can inflict in such a small amount of time.

in a way, nuking = burst to me.

dots aren't burst damage and thus warlocks barely ever burst, unlike pretty much all melee classes or the hunter.
 
ArthurianKnight said:
but that description means dots are burst damage, but since they are long term damage, i wouldn't call them burst.



burst for me is the amount you can inflict in such a small amount of time.

in a way, nuking = burst to me.

dots aren't burst damage and thus warlocks barely ever burst, unlike pretty much all melee classes or the hunter.
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tactical nuke
 
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