BoA items, the death of twinking imo
- Thread starter TaintedHalo
- Start date
Slashdrive
OG
I like the boa gear. /shrug
Ymir
OG
For those that clearly didn't comprehend my last post:
If it becomes so that you need to run 20 heroics to upgrade your twinks gear every patch, I won't bother. I twink solely to avoid the gear treadmill. No. other. reason. The rest is fluff. Put twinks on the treadmill and I will no longer have a reason to play the game. I only started again after a year or more away because I figured I could avoid the whole pointless pixel collecting mousewheel by twinking a guy.
There's never any point explaining addiction to addicts though, so this post is kind of useless.
If it becomes so that you need to run 20 heroics to upgrade your twinks gear every patch, I won't bother. I twink solely to avoid the gear treadmill. No. other. reason. The rest is fluff. Put twinks on the treadmill and I will no longer have a reason to play the game. I only started again after a year or more away because I figured I could avoid the whole pointless pixel collecting mousewheel by twinking a guy.
There's never any point explaining addiction to addicts though, so this post is kind of useless.
Druiddroid
OG
holy crap this thread is long
well, i'm going to add in what i think about this in a summary of points
1) the BOA gear does not provide that many additional stats to the best in slot non-BOA gear.
2) the main factor in wether or not you make an impact in a BG mainly depends on your skill, not your gear.
3) blizzard is not making you go on the "treadmill". if you don't want to get the BOA gear, don't. noone's forcing you.
i don't have an 80, probably never will, and hey, i'm not going to complain about new BOA items personally. if i weren't lazy i could probably get them, but whatever. it's not like i'm a non-factor in BGs because i don't have BOAs.
well, i'm going to add in what i think about this in a summary of points
1) the BOA gear does not provide that many additional stats to the best in slot non-BOA gear.
2) the main factor in wether or not you make an impact in a BG mainly depends on your skill, not your gear.
3) blizzard is not making you go on the "treadmill". if you don't want to get the BOA gear, don't. noone's forcing you.
i don't have an 80, probably never will, and hey, i'm not going to complain about new BOA items personally. if i weren't lazy i could probably get them, but whatever. it's not like i'm a non-factor in BGs because i don't have BOAs.
Ymir
OG
Druiddroid said:
No one forces you to get on the treadmill at 80 either, but no one wants shitty gear. Or average gear. Or second best gear. You're never forced onto the gear treadmill by anything other than your own desire to compete on a level playing field with the best geared players. Absolutely level, so that skill is the ONLY factor, not the biggest, or most important, or third most important, or something that sometimes has an effect when the moon and sun align correctly.
And laziness is not a word that should even come up when you're talking about a GAME that you spend your FREE time on. Honestly, if I'm going to work for something, I'm going to work for dollars. You can work for pixels if you like. Oh wait, no you can't, blizzard still owns all your stuff.
I've been there. Full time 40man raiding in vanilla, fighting over server firsts on world bosses for 12 hours at a time, spending 17 hours in AV, to grinding BGs and arenas in TBC. Do you know how long it took to grind a full set of honor gear in TBC, even with a 70%+ win ratio in every BG? Long enough so that you had the gear for six weeks if you were lucky before they released the next set. At least by s2 you knew you had to bank for the next season, but that didn't change how much grinding you had to do.
From reaper days to brutal days I had best in slots on my main and it's just not FUN. It's addictive, but not enjoyable. The fun is in playing a game, not working at it.
I don't care if the gear is easy to get or insanely difficult, only how long it takes. If there's no way to gear a toon competitively at any level without playing for hundreds of hours, I just won't play. Blizzard keeps people hooked with that korean MMO style, but they burn them out too. Every r14 I've known except 4 sold their toon within a few months, and 3 of the 4 did their r14 on a new server long before honor inflation hit. I only know one person who kept playing wow after doing r14 the hard way.
welcome to the world of MMORPG. all RPG have that kind of thing, its normal to reqward those who pay for better then the others. we paid for WOTLK, we get better things.
back to what we're saying...
even though many of you seem to think that seeing everyone with one gear means its the best. i got news for you... its not ! think outside of the mold for a change. every twinks are the very same, yet some guys actually tryed other builds and ended up forming new ways of playing each chars.
you guys are seeing the BOA trinkets as absolute gears. yet i dont see how they can even compare to AGM or even the inherited insignia of the horde. its been said countless times... even though you can put scopes on BOA gears, which is nothing to me, +2 scopes are just that, laughable at best. it always been said, DPS wise, VS is the best ! the bow and gun haven't came close to breaking it. you're starting to see crit, but by doing so you are dropping DPS, in the end it comes back to the same thing.
twinks have always been like this...
"BALANCE" you think it give you more dps by getting your crit higher, though it is true... it is also true that losing the base DPS to get crit will effectively come back to the same !
good exemple...
BrandaTwo: my 19s twink, i got the boa shoulders, got me 1 more dps... tell me wasn't it a choice for me to drop about 30-40 mana form my mana pool to gain 1 stupid dps ? because that's exactly what i got from my boa shoulders.
anybody who see the BOA as overpowered, is just that a lunatic. they aren't overpowered. they rival good blues... even at 19s, there are better gears and wow often prooved that even great greens rivals good blues. seriously... BOA aren't OP they aren't the best in slots, those who tell you they are are just lying or simply "believing" that it is. the only thing BOA have gotten twinks were another way of gearing up.
you wont see a difference between a BOA geared twink and a none-BOA twink.
Druid is right over there, may you be geared or not, you wont be losing if you know how to play. look at twinks right now, many dont have AGM or fishing hat, do they get killed easily ? the answer is no, i am one of those due to lazyness... and seriously, i haven't seen a fully twink getting me on his toast. i always hit them hard and good as well.
i seriously think that you guys should stop twinking if you think th egears are all there is to a twink, cause its not... its actually far from there !
EDIT:
i just read entirely your post YMIR...
sorry to hear you dislikes RPG. i now officially wonder why you play this game then, cause its exactly what RPGs are for, working to get better stuff. if you want PVP and shooting try some action games instead.
back to what we're saying...
even though many of you seem to think that seeing everyone with one gear means its the best. i got news for you... its not ! think outside of the mold for a change. every twinks are the very same, yet some guys actually tryed other builds and ended up forming new ways of playing each chars.
you guys are seeing the BOA trinkets as absolute gears. yet i dont see how they can even compare to AGM or even the inherited insignia of the horde. its been said countless times... even though you can put scopes on BOA gears, which is nothing to me, +2 scopes are just that, laughable at best. it always been said, DPS wise, VS is the best ! the bow and gun haven't came close to breaking it. you're starting to see crit, but by doing so you are dropping DPS, in the end it comes back to the same thing.
twinks have always been like this...
"BALANCE" you think it give you more dps by getting your crit higher, though it is true... it is also true that losing the base DPS to get crit will effectively come back to the same !
good exemple...
BrandaTwo: my 19s twink, i got the boa shoulders, got me 1 more dps... tell me wasn't it a choice for me to drop about 30-40 mana form my mana pool to gain 1 stupid dps ? because that's exactly what i got from my boa shoulders.
anybody who see the BOA as overpowered, is just that a lunatic. they aren't overpowered. they rival good blues... even at 19s, there are better gears and wow often prooved that even great greens rivals good blues. seriously... BOA aren't OP they aren't the best in slots, those who tell you they are are just lying or simply "believing" that it is. the only thing BOA have gotten twinks were another way of gearing up.
you wont see a difference between a BOA geared twink and a none-BOA twink.
Druid is right over there, may you be geared or not, you wont be losing if you know how to play. look at twinks right now, many dont have AGM or fishing hat, do they get killed easily ? the answer is no, i am one of those due to lazyness... and seriously, i haven't seen a fully twink getting me on his toast. i always hit them hard and good as well.
i seriously think that you guys should stop twinking if you think th egears are all there is to a twink, cause its not... its actually far from there !
EDIT:
i just read entirely your post YMIR...
sorry to hear you dislikes RPG. i now officially wonder why you play this game then, cause its exactly what RPGs are for, working to get better stuff. if you want PVP and shooting try some action games instead.
Ymir
OG
Actually most of the orginal wow developers either came from or moved on to rpgs that don't involve incessant mudflation. You know the term? Look it up.
Guild wars, diku pvp muds, etc. Those are MMORPGS. They don't involve a gear treadmill. There are others too, I'm just naming the two where prominent members of the original wow development team either came from or moved to.
This korean MMO 'running to stand still' grindfest mentality is NOT what mmorpgs are about. They didn't start that way and they won't end that way. If you think otherwise you're really just a little bit new to the MMO world.
Guild wars, diku pvp muds, etc. Those are MMORPGS. They don't involve a gear treadmill. There are others too, I'm just naming the two where prominent members of the original wow development team either came from or moved to.
This korean MMO 'running to stand still' grindfest mentality is NOT what mmorpgs are about. They didn't start that way and they won't end that way. If you think otherwise you're really just a little bit new to the MMO world.
Druiddroid
OG
Ymir said:
it's really not a huge factor if you have BOAs or BIS-non-BOA gear. maybe in arenas it might be.
well, i don't want to work for the BOAs, so i don't.
yes it is a game, but for some people (like me) leveling is a chore. i essentially see it as a job, and if you don't do it you're lazy. hence why i remain lazy and keep pvping
that's for top levels
getting the best gear for twinks isn't nearly as difficult as that, and i doubt blizzard will ever make it that difficult. i mean they added ONE new slot of gear the last patch.
correct, hence why i play twinks in the first place.
ok, don't play
i'll keep playing with my non-BOA gear and having fun
Ymir
OG
Druiddroid said:
It shouldn't be a factor. Size of the factor is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't need to be there. There shouldn't be an advantage because you spent 100 hours running mind numbing instances on a different toon. Leave that crap where it has always been, max level.
well, i don't want to work for the BOAs, so i don't.
yes it is a game, but for some people (like me) leveling is a chore. i essentially see it as a job, and if you don't do it you're lazy. hence why i remain lazy and keep pvping
Yes, we already got the message that you don't mind playing with a handicap.
One new slot of gear that requires you to complete 20 quests or instance runs. That's actually pretty obnoxious when you compare it to just about anything other than epic+. Most nice blues require you to complete a half dozen quests for the chain, not 20 quests where you're forced to space them out over the course of a month.
Yet you have no issue with creeping additions adding more and more max level work to twinking. That's a little blinkered. When there's a full set of BOAs including epic weaponry that requires you to farm a 25man raid for the left and right wingtips of dancing doom (0.3% droprate), do you think you might be able to see the problem? Or do you honestly think it won't happen?
ok, don't play
i'll keep playing with my non-BOA gear and having fun
I wasn't asking your permission.
BoAs are NOT fine, they ARE ruining one of the draws of twinking, the ability to play without grinding, and that attraction IS the main or only reason some players twink, or even play the game.
Arguing otherwise is arguing against fact. I am sitting here telling you that creeping BOAs are ruining my enjoyment of the game, and why. It's not up for debate. You can't convince me I like something that I don't like.
I actually want to change that last part as it's very combative, but I don't know how else to get the message across. It's not up to other people to tell me what I like, and if it's ruining twinking for me, it's ruining it for others too. The thread wouldn't even exist otherwise. If it's ruining twinking for a few people but not you, aside from the fact that you need to take a good hard look in the mirror one of these days if you want to argue that's ok, you need to consider what effect that's going to have on your queue times and quality of competition.
You know what, i really wonder which game you are speaking of that do not have a gear treadmill as you say... cause all MMOs i have seen that where sucessfull are the ones with such treadmill as the replayability is just that. getting new gears !
EQ, had lots of expansion too, which those added new gears and all, treadmill right there.
AoC adds more expansion too, more treadmill over there.
All the free MMORPG have treadmills too since you gotta pay to get better gears.
Guild Wars, again how many expansion is there ?
name me only one MMORPG i never played or taken the time to check upon, i can safely tell you that what made the people stay in that game were two things... PVP which has to be on a treadmill as without it, people cannot be the best and thats what PVP is all about, the competition. the other thing that makes people play is replayability, you really think that people will replay levels by levels until they all get the toons at 80 ? no it wont happen, people hate leveling, so the only thing left for them is to give them something to do with higher levels !
you do know that the majority of the WOW community says the game start at 80 ?
because that's about 80% of the whole community who thinks that way. if blizzard hadn't created such treadmill, the game wouldn'T have gone this long. as it would be just like every other MMO. and at that, other MMO have treadmills too, or else their user base changes everyday, unlike WOW who have dedicated gamers to begin with.
as for you playing low levels and not wanting a higher level... it is your choice, nothing more and that choice strickly means nothing. if "you" don't want to have anything with it, then just don't. i dont care, i decided to play twinks because i think lower level PVP has more sens then higher level. doesn't mean i hate higher end content. i play it, i love it, but its PVP that makes me stay around here. without that treadmill, i would have left long ago !
so maybe "you" don't like it, but doesn't mean that everyone must think like you do !
the lazyness comes in many forms... you are "playing a game" the game has its laws, may you like them or not, they are there and they won't be changing anytime soon. but there is one thing you get the choice to, its the "playing" part. it is your choice if you decided to play it, it yours only, nobody forces you to pay to play the game, and believe me when i say that blizzard do not care if you stop playing all of a sudden.
someone who plays a game just because he likes a single thing in the game is someone i hate, cause they don't play a game for what it is, you're playing it out of pure lazyness ! you want it easy, you want it to be over with before you even started to play it. if you could cheat to create yourself charcaters in a matter of seconds, you'd be abusing the feature. that's not how the game works... if you can't handle that, then why are you still playing a game that you dislike to begin with ?
you consider it as "working" as far as i am concerned... this word goes for all fucking MMORPGs i've seen and played up to this point !
By the way, the first MMO is not EQ like many seems to think...
Ultima Online was the first graphical one. and UO was exactly what WoW is today, but it was way worse ! i remember a friend placing a 5 cent in his keyboard to trigger a macro to farm ore out of the mine... he did this for 5 fucking days 24h a day just to get 5 stupid points of skills.
so before you talk about difficulty, you should ask yourself what Blizzard did to actually make things easier for the players. cause they did quite a lot of changes to help the replayability value, which is th eonly thing that counts in a game !
EDIT:
i wonder how you call running 15 times a deadmines to get a chest if you dont call that grinding ?
i also wonder how you call killing mobs to get rep, if its not called grinding either ?
EQ, had lots of expansion too, which those added new gears and all, treadmill right there.
AoC adds more expansion too, more treadmill over there.
All the free MMORPG have treadmills too since you gotta pay to get better gears.
Guild Wars, again how many expansion is there ?
name me only one MMORPG i never played or taken the time to check upon, i can safely tell you that what made the people stay in that game were two things... PVP which has to be on a treadmill as without it, people cannot be the best and thats what PVP is all about, the competition. the other thing that makes people play is replayability, you really think that people will replay levels by levels until they all get the toons at 80 ? no it wont happen, people hate leveling, so the only thing left for them is to give them something to do with higher levels !
you do know that the majority of the WOW community says the game start at 80 ?
because that's about 80% of the whole community who thinks that way. if blizzard hadn't created such treadmill, the game wouldn'T have gone this long. as it would be just like every other MMO. and at that, other MMO have treadmills too, or else their user base changes everyday, unlike WOW who have dedicated gamers to begin with.
as for you playing low levels and not wanting a higher level... it is your choice, nothing more and that choice strickly means nothing. if "you" don't want to have anything with it, then just don't. i dont care, i decided to play twinks because i think lower level PVP has more sens then higher level. doesn't mean i hate higher end content. i play it, i love it, but its PVP that makes me stay around here. without that treadmill, i would have left long ago !
so maybe "you" don't like it, but doesn't mean that everyone must think like you do !
the lazyness comes in many forms... you are "playing a game" the game has its laws, may you like them or not, they are there and they won't be changing anytime soon. but there is one thing you get the choice to, its the "playing" part. it is your choice if you decided to play it, it yours only, nobody forces you to pay to play the game, and believe me when i say that blizzard do not care if you stop playing all of a sudden.
someone who plays a game just because he likes a single thing in the game is someone i hate, cause they don't play a game for what it is, you're playing it out of pure lazyness ! you want it easy, you want it to be over with before you even started to play it. if you could cheat to create yourself charcaters in a matter of seconds, you'd be abusing the feature. that's not how the game works... if you can't handle that, then why are you still playing a game that you dislike to begin with ?
you consider it as "working" as far as i am concerned... this word goes for all fucking MMORPGs i've seen and played up to this point !
By the way, the first MMO is not EQ like many seems to think...
Ultima Online was the first graphical one. and UO was exactly what WoW is today, but it was way worse ! i remember a friend placing a 5 cent in his keyboard to trigger a macro to farm ore out of the mine... he did this for 5 fucking days 24h a day just to get 5 stupid points of skills.
so before you talk about difficulty, you should ask yourself what Blizzard did to actually make things easier for the players. cause they did quite a lot of changes to help the replayability value, which is th eonly thing that counts in a game !
EDIT:
i wonder how you call running 15 times a deadmines to get a chest if you dont call that grinding ?
i also wonder how you call killing mobs to get rep, if its not called grinding either ?
Ymir
OG
AK you'll note I said WoW involves a treadmill. In fact, that was kind of the whole point, so I'm not sure what you're talking about tbh.
I skimmed it and you seemed to be agreeing with me except for the part about selling addictive gameplay to children being a good decision because it increases your box sales. Who cares if a few kids in Korea and China kill themselves through lack of food or water right? That will never happen in the US right? Oh wait.
Why are you even on a twinking forum if the replayability is in getting new gear? Bit of a contradiction there.
Oh and UO wasn't the first MMO either. You need to do a little more research. UO was an early graphical MMO, but not even the first of those.
The only part that makes any sense is at the end. The difference between the two is that once you have done your 15 runs for your chest, you don't need to do any more. However if you add a new BOA every patch, then the epic boas, then inflate the ilvls, expansion style, so on and so on, you might as well keep playing max level wow. Or get an addiction to a real drug rather than pixel collecting.
Anyway, it's all beside the point. Fact is, if adding a completely unnecessary gear grind (no idea how anyone actually convinces themselves that THAT is a good thing) causes people to lose interest in twinking, that's longer queues for you. Not an appealing prospect with the other changes coming in the patch.
I skimmed it and you seemed to be agreeing with me except for the part about selling addictive gameplay to children being a good decision because it increases your box sales. Who cares if a few kids in Korea and China kill themselves through lack of food or water right? That will never happen in the US right? Oh wait.
Why are you even on a twinking forum if the replayability is in getting new gear? Bit of a contradiction there.
Oh and UO wasn't the first MMO either. You need to do a little more research. UO was an early graphical MMO, but not even the first of those.
The only part that makes any sense is at the end. The difference between the two is that once you have done your 15 runs for your chest, you don't need to do any more. However if you add a new BOA every patch, then the epic boas, then inflate the ilvls, expansion style, so on and so on, you might as well keep playing max level wow. Or get an addiction to a real drug rather than pixel collecting.
Anyway, it's all beside the point. Fact is, if adding a completely unnecessary gear grind (no idea how anyone actually convinces themselves that THAT is a good thing) causes people to lose interest in twinking, that's longer queues for you. Not an appealing prospect with the other changes coming in the patch.
Druiddroid
OG
whatever
if it's that big a deal to you, then don't play
it's not a big deal to me
if it's that big a deal to you, then don't play
it's not a big deal to me