Better than SF?

[UFC]

Was looking on the AH and found a Decapitating Sword of the Quickblade, is this worth anything? To me it seems better than the Shadowfang?

Shadowfang - ilvl 24, 6-11 dmg, 2.6 speed, 3.3 dps, +6 agi, chance to proc shadowbolt
Decapitating - ilvl 24, 6-11 dmg, 2.6 speed, 3.3 dps , +3 agi, +5 stam, +2 crit, +2 versa


Thanks!

 

[worldoftears]

Agility doesn't really do all that much nowadays, so ya, going for two 3 agil 5 stam swords is the best. The decapitating sword isn't nearly the only one with 3 agil 5 stam however, as a lot of our swords are normalized to that. The best pair of swords to have is the blue bg ones, since that is 3.7 dps instead of the normalized 3.3 dps for our lvl.

 

[Zemmix]

Not to mention, Shadowfang's proc is abysmal at best these days.

 

[necroaqua]

For mainhand...BG Crate blue > Shadowfang. Not because of agi vs balanced stat, but purely weapon damage. Same reason why any warforged/titanforged invasion weapon is going to be better mainhand. If you don't have a weapon that has higher weapon damage, then shadowfang is best. If you don't already have shadowfang, you should just use a bronze sword or heirloom or dungeon option until you get the BG crate weapon.

For offhand...Shadowfang > Bronze shortsword > others. Agility is still king (not sure why anyone would think otherwise). 1 agility is worth 2-3 verse, so the typical 3agi/5/stam/3verse/2crit option doesn't compare. The proc itself isn't great, but it can proc elemental force. Offhand is the stat stick, so go with pure stats (and the proc). Bronze shortsword is a cheap version that has the same agility but no proc. You can look at other similar things like scaled assassins blade or talon of vultros (5agi/2crit). Otherwise BG crate weapon of the quickblade because its got slightly better white damage than other options.

 

[Yapah]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=2011/twisted-sabre&bonus=3920

3 agi 5 vers 2 stam 3.7 DPS

 

[Tweakedirl]

Since when did agility not do anything?

 

[necroaqua]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=2011/twisted-sabre&bonus=3920

3 agi 5 vers 2 stam 3.7 DPS

Its equal to the BG crate swords in weapon damage. Has 3 less stam but potentially trades 2 crit for 2 verse. Can BG crate weapons be "of the adaptable" or w/e? It'd be BiS or tied for BiS.

However whether it drops with ilvl 25 (req lvl 17) has yet to be proven one way or the other AFAIK.

 

[worldoftears]

Since when did agility not do anything?

Well i probably didnt phrase that very well, since obviously agil is gr8, but i was more getting at that it doesnt increase your dmg by a great amount. My full agil set (200 agil, 999 hp) only does 15 more dmg on sinister strike than my balanced set (156 agil, 1638hp), so i just prefer to be tankier.

 

[Zemmix]

Well i probably didnt phrase that very well, since obviously agil is gr8, but i was more getting at that it doesnt increase your dmg by a great amount. My full agil set (200 agil, 999 hp) only does 15 more dmg on sinister strike than my balanced set (156 agil, 1638hp), so i just prefer to be tankier.

And 15 more damage on SS is going to be less useful than Talwar procs.

 

[necroaqua]

And 15 more damage on SS is going to be less useful than Talwar procs.

This is the 10-19 forums, so tulwar isnt an option. But for 20s that seems to be the consensus.

 

[Zemmix]

Got two threads mixed up, with this and the Outlaw Rogue wep thread in F2P.

Yeah, Talwar is great for 20s.

 

[Dolfie]

In 7.3.5 or maybe even before.. blizz increased the dmg of alot of proc that used to be on vanilla weapons... Searing Blade or Venomstrike etc have crazy high proc dmg on them atm.. Naturally they shouldve given a big boost to SF proc damage aswell because it's the most famous twink weapon no doubt. and i hope they will do this later

 

[Sairentokira]

I'm running an agility pure with around 185 with a flask and never come below 2nd place on a winning battleground, even a losing BG i'll be top for damage and kills, so to say agility doesn't do much these days is a complete lie.

As for the shadowfang procs, literally every 8/10 times i hit it will instantly proc my enchants, it's insane.

 

[artonkn]

Fang procs also proc ef and satyr

 

[Yapah]

Fang procs also proc ef and satyr

Fang is useless on MH because of 3.3 DPS instead of 3.7
Fang is useless OH because lvl 19 BvB is better agi wise and the dot will proc more ele force than sf
Plus SF’s shadow bolt is instant, and since ele force is rppm it probably wont proc ele since you’re doing constant DPS, proccing ele force all the time, the extra hit from a bolt wont change the amount of procs you get on your target
BvB is a dot, and it can proc ele force when you’re out of range

TLR: SF is only useful for OH if you don’t have bvb, and even then you can use the green 6 agi sword, 7 damage shadow proc wont proc more ele force and the DPS increase from 7 shadow bolt damage is laughable

 

[Tonkks]

Fang is useless on MH because of 3.3 DPS instead of 3.7
Fang is useless OH because lvl 19 BvB is better agi wise and the dot will proc more ele force than sf
Plus SF’s shadow bolt is instant, and since ele force is rppm it probably wont proc ele since you’re doing constant DPS, proccing ele force all the time, the extra hit from a bolt wont change the amount of procs you get on your target
BvB is a dot, and it can proc ele force when you’re out of range

TLR: SF is only useful for OH if you don’t have bvb, and even then you can use the green 6 agi sword, 7 damage shadow proc wont proc more ele force and the DPS increase from 7 shadow bolt damage is laughable

I don’t think BvB scales to 19...? SFs bolt is not instant, and it DOES proc ele force and satyr. One extra proc per encounter is a massive dps increase (and it obviously procs less than one time per encounter- but when it does proc it does a ton of damage).

There is an argument to be made in regards to the BG crate weps being better, but I really like SFs with my current build (in my current gear equipped on armory rn). The only big change I need to make is to get Bluegill legs (if I get dark leather I’ll just put it off). It is difficult to test this type of thing... but at our level every stat point contributes a good amount.

 

[Yapah]

I don’t think BvB scales to 19...? SFs bolt is not instant, and it DOES proc ele force and satyr. One extra proc per encounter is a massive dps increase (and it obviously procs less than one time per encounter- but when it does proc it does a ton of damage).

Bvb does scale to 19

And I know shadow bolt CAN proc satyr/ele, that wasnt my point

My point is, these procs are RPPM, so when you’re doing DPS ele force will proc 10 times a minute. This can be from a white hit, ability, or sf proc, but this doesnt mean the sf proc will increase your rppm. You will still get 10 ele force procs with or without the shadow bolt, thats why its irrelevant.

Bvb on the other hand, yes when your dealing DPS the dot proc isnt that useful, but if you’re target is out of range, it will still proc eles from the dot.

 

[necroaqua]

Bvb does scale to 19

Screenshot?

 

[Tonkks]

Bvb does scale to 19

And I know shadow bolt CAN proc satyr/ele, that wasnt my point

My point is, these procs are RPPM, so when you’re doing DPS ele force will proc 10 times a minute. This can be from a white hit, ability, or sf proc, but this doesnt mean the sf proc will increase your rppm. You will still get 10 ele force procs with or without the shadow bolt, thats why its irrelevant.

Bvb on the other hand, yes when your dealing DPS the dot proc isnt that useful, but if you’re target is out of range, it will still proc eles from the dot.

Do you have a SS/armory link of a level 19 BvB? That PPM is based on weapon speed. It is my understanding that the shadow bolt procs are not factored into the original PPM, effectively giving it another “chance”. The proc you are thinking of is if it was a “chance on hit”. Those have internal cooldowns... so getting it to proc from a SS or a white hit would still put the proc on ICD

 

[necroaqua]

RPPM is something thats often misunderstood here (and just in general). I'll be the first to admit that I don't quite understand everything going on behind it.

Real procs per minute. This means if your trinket has an RPPM of 1, it will proc once per minute, on average. If you have an RPPM of 2, it will proc 2 times per minute on average. With the RPPM system, it doesn’t matter how many spells you use or swings you take (like it does on chance-to-proc on hit trinkets).

So according to the Mr Robot blog, which is probably a really good source, it doesn't matter how many spells you use or swings you take. Which is consistent with blizz posts about it. The math seems to have changed a few times since they introduced this in...MoP? So I'm not exactly sure how it works now.

But basically, the longer you go without a proc, the higher the chance of a proc is. With the original math, if you got for 3s without an elemental force proc, you've got like a 50% chance to proc it. At 1 second it'd only be 18% or something. But that resets when you get a proc.

So a white attack with shadowfang proc is basically two rolls to see if you get a proc. So it'll proc more often and reset that % more often, so it'll be a lower % all the time. Basically it all washes out in the long run, but you might get your second proc in a bit sooner because of it. If you have a slower event rate than procs, then you have a problem. Elemental force at 10 RPPM would be every 6 seconds, so if you're not getting an event in every 6 seconds, then you're "wasting" your proc rate.

DoTs do have the effect of lingering and proccing after you can no longer attack, but ultimately thats not a huge deal for combat rogues with pistol shot. Which does a good job of proccing things on its own, as well as keeping the target slowed. Targets who get away with a poison can often fine a way to heal once out of range.

If someone has a better understanding or some good graphs modeling procs vs time vs event rate, then I'd love to see them.