Best Warrior+Healer combo?
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Powerglove
OG
Situation said:
i haven't. are they op now?
the reason i say they have to be awesome to work well with a warrior is because your anti-cc moves are preventative rather than reactive. if you can't stay on the ball with interrupts, the warrior is going to be cc'd the entire time while you get focused
elesian
OG
Skill level for both 39 and 80 on Cyclone is very high. I've played with good arms players and good prot players in a variety of setups, the sustained damage of arms cannot compare with the utility and burst that prot brings - 1300 concussion blow crits + 5 sec stun, ridiculous defence and armour levels, 5 sec stuns on improved revenge. No melee can go to toe-to-toe and the prot certainly cannot be nuked in any way. Gear stacking is also different, so Prots generally have higher hp to start off with - even if they get disarmed before shield wall, they still have last stand to rely on, something in the region of 900hp.
A good team are going to either try and kite the warrior from the pally to avoid the pop or just co-ordinate cc with burst on the pally, forcing the paladin to bubble. Holy paladins are fine for spamming and chucking the occasion hof, but what else do you have apart from that? You are a prime target for burns, and you cannot contribute to damage unless you classify a 300-600 exorcism every 15 seconds a 'contribution' - very much in a literal sense.
Good disc priests are running with 4000-4500 mana, they will not be going oom quickly if they are efficient, and prot enhances the efficiency. Between a holy fire/mind blast/smite a priest can burst for anthing up to 1500 + the pressure from dots - now THAT'S a contribution. Between the aoe fear, psychic screams and the stuns from the prot you've got a lot of space for peels and control.
You not staying in your paladins LOS is not the problem, it's a priest forcing a PS, getting 3 chain burns on your paladin, whilst a rogue locks you down, or a prot warrior stuns you.
The point about going prot is that you take less damage, either indirectly or directly - which means less mana usage of the priest, allowing him to take a more aggressive roll in assisting burst.
Paladin warrior is just too static, you're just going to be subject to control and being forced into bad positions, especially at this level where the paladin has no holy shock - there's no utility apart from hof and bop.
The point about the shaman is this - the shaman can kite all day long allowing you to get your hamstring and rend off, then purge and assist burst. The game should be essentially the dps chasing the shaman, being kited, and the warrior sticking on their ass. All this eventually means is that their dps is forced to fight you as they are kited into los, and if you WERE a prot this is where you could wait for a revenge, then your concussion blow - 16 seconds of stun time with fear, 10/11 if one is trinketed whilst your shaman is in los, assist bursting.
Still, disc priest
.
A good team are going to either try and kite the warrior from the pally to avoid the pop or just co-ordinate cc with burst on the pally, forcing the paladin to bubble. Holy paladins are fine for spamming and chucking the occasion hof, but what else do you have apart from that? You are a prime target for burns, and you cannot contribute to damage unless you classify a 300-600 exorcism every 15 seconds a 'contribution' - very much in a literal sense.
Good disc priests are running with 4000-4500 mana, they will not be going oom quickly if they are efficient, and prot enhances the efficiency. Between a holy fire/mind blast/smite a priest can burst for anthing up to 1500 + the pressure from dots - now THAT'S a contribution. Between the aoe fear, psychic screams and the stuns from the prot you've got a lot of space for peels and control.
You not staying in your paladins LOS is not the problem, it's a priest forcing a PS, getting 3 chain burns on your paladin, whilst a rogue locks you down, or a prot warrior stuns you.
The point about going prot is that you take less damage, either indirectly or directly - which means less mana usage of the priest, allowing him to take a more aggressive roll in assisting burst.
Paladin warrior is just too static, you're just going to be subject to control and being forced into bad positions, especially at this level where the paladin has no holy shock - there's no utility apart from hof and bop.
The point about the shaman is this - the shaman can kite all day long allowing you to get your hamstring and rend off, then purge and assist burst. The game should be essentially the dps chasing the shaman, being kited, and the warrior sticking on their ass. All this eventually means is that their dps is forced to fight you as they are kited into los, and if you WERE a prot this is where you could wait for a revenge, then your concussion blow - 16 seconds of stun time with fear, 10/11 if one is trinketed whilst your shaman is in los, assist bursting.
Still, disc priest
.Powerglove
OG
elesian said:Skill level for both 39 and 80 on Cyclone is very high. I've played with good arms players and good prot players in a variety of setups, the sustained damage of arms cannot compare with the utility and burst that prot brings - 1300 concussion blow crits + 5 sec stun, ridiculous defence and armour levels, 5 sec stuns on improved revenge. No melee can go to toe-to-toe and the prot certainly cannot be nuked in any way. Gear stacking is also different, so Prots generally have higher hp to start off with - even if they get disarmed before shield wall, they still have last stand to rely on, something in the region of 900hp.
A good team are going to either try and kite the warrior from the pally to avoid the pop or just co-ordinate cc with burst on the pally, forcing the paladin to bubble. Holy paladins are fine for spamming and chucking the occasion hof, but what else do you have apart from that? You are a prime target for burns, and you cannot contribute to damage unless you classify a 300-600 exorcism every 15 seconds a 'contribution' - very much in a literal sense.
Good disc priests are running with 4000-4500 mana, they will not be going oom quickly if they are efficient, and prot enhances the efficiency. Between a holy fire/mind blast/smite a priest can burst for anthing up to 1500 + the pressure from dots - now THAT'S a contribution. Between the aoe fear, psychic screams and the stuns from the prot you've got a lot of space for peels and control.
You not staying in your paladins LOS is not the problem, it's a priest forcing a PS, getting 3 chain burns on your paladin, whilst a rogue locks you down, or a prot warrior stuns you.
The point about going prot is that you take less damage, either indirectly or directly - which means less mana usage of the priest, allowing him to take a more aggressive roll in assisting burst.
Paladin warrior is just too static, you're just going to be subject to control and being forced into bad positions, especially at this level where the paladin has no holy shock - there's no utility apart from hof and bop.
The point about the shaman is this - the shaman can kite all day long allowing you to get your hamstring and rend off, then purge and assist burst. The game should be essentially the dps chasing the shaman, being kited, and the warrior sticking on their ass. All this eventually means is that their dps is forced to fight you as they are kited into los, and if you WERE a prot this is where you could wait for a revenge, then your concussion blow - 16 seconds of stun time with fear, 10/11 if one is trinketed whilst your shaman is in los, assist bursting.
Still, disc priest
If you're not attacking a prot warrior, he can't revenge you and he won't be generating any rage. Even if he bloodrages, his damage is dismal outside of conc blow, which isn't guaranteed to hit (or crit).
prot is way too gimmicky and loses its luster when people know how it works
this is just an example of something that counters paladins. i could just as easily bring up a rogue/rogue vs warrior/priest example to say that priests have problems
AsEeL
OG
Shaman
7 enhancement / 23 restoration
(18% crit on heals)
Watershield (+-100 mana restore on hit) or on crit heals
tidal force (60% crit heal)
Nature's Swiftness (instant heal)
Totems (stoneclaw shield glyph ftw)
Purge lol / interupt lol almost no CD
instant ghostwolf
Healingstream totem or mana totem +- 40 hp a second!
Drenai racials healing spell (+- 190 hp restore every 3 seconds)
The extra healeffect for your wpn does +- 70 healing every 3 sec also when it procs
Guess who wins in a paladin / warrior vs shaman / warrior
I have screen at home were i killed holy paladin and retri paladin in arena lol, 15k dmg done and was at 40% mana at the end (mana restore ftw)
I upload it this evening (europe)
My friend is full twink rogue
2300hp insane crit and ap with dual mongoose and hitcapped.
Haven't won single battle yet against him.
Criple and healingreduction by 50% is insane combined with the great dps.
Starts:
Opens with a stun, dmg dmg dmg, Kidneyshot dmg dmg dmg,
When i finaly come out, he blinds me, he disapears, and does same again.
If he still did not get me down he will vanish and start over.
If i use trincket on blins he and manage to get away i cant do anything
Sprint, kick, gaughe
Lol insane
rogue again best class in all twink brackets.
7 enhancement / 23 restoration
(18% crit on heals)
Watershield (+-100 mana restore on hit) or on crit heals
tidal force (60% crit heal)
Nature's Swiftness (instant heal)
Totems (stoneclaw shield glyph ftw)
Purge lol / interupt lol almost no CD
instant ghostwolf
Healingstream totem or mana totem +- 40 hp a second!
Drenai racials healing spell (+- 190 hp restore every 3 seconds)
The extra healeffect for your wpn does +- 70 healing every 3 sec also when it procs
Guess who wins in a paladin / warrior vs shaman / warrior
I have screen at home were i killed holy paladin and retri paladin in arena lol, 15k dmg done and was at 40% mana at the end (mana restore ftw)
I upload it this evening (europe)
My friend is full twink rogue
2300hp insane crit and ap with dual mongoose and hitcapped.
Haven't won single battle yet against him.
Criple and healingreduction by 50% is insane combined with the great dps.
Starts:
Opens with a stun, dmg dmg dmg, Kidneyshot dmg dmg dmg,
When i finaly come out, he blinds me, he disapears, and does same again.
If he still did not get me down he will vanish and start over.
If i use trincket on blins he and manage to get away i cant do anything
Sprint, kick, gaughe
Lol insane
rogue again best class in all twink brackets.
elesian
OG
Place searing totem and clense at start, save only trinket for the blind, don't trinket the kidney. Your health is a bit low when it comes to surviving rogue openers. After the Kidney wait for abolish proc and natures swiftness. Try not to use frost shock and grounding together, kite him around your totems, thats around, not away. If you play properly, a rogue will have to take out totems in his kidney rotation, then it's just of out lasting his cooldowns.
I play 39 rogue*** in MYL, keeping an eye out for you.
I play 39 rogue*** in MYL, keeping an eye out for you
.I eat rogues for breakfast... Nom nom nom, no I actually dont but lately I'v been able to take them on reasonably well considering rogues are the bane of shamans. Im 5 and 0 with a rogue on Emberstorm named Pewpewpew at the moment. I never thought shamans were underpowered and I'v been playing mine for over a year.
useabandage
OG
whats with all this crap about priests going oom fast....are you on crack?
Powerglove
OG
Magrim said:
other specs won't leave you rage starved and useless if people decide not to attack you
Arock
OG
Lmao... There are a lot of clueless people on these forums. ;[ Let me clear a couple things up.
Concussion Blow does not crit for 1300 damage.. Try 800, on a good day. I guess prot works alright against incompetent players who focus the prot warrior in an arena... If those are the people you are trying to defeat, you could go most any spec and succeed.
Prot does not work because it does TERRIBLE damage when not being attacked, and even then, meh. As a holy pally myself, I have done some 2's with a prot warrior. Whenever I was focused, the most he could do, was dual wield, and play like a fury warrior without any talents. ;] Prot cannot put out enough pressure to force the enemy team to play defensively.
Warrior/ Paladin IS the best 2's comp for a warrior. The pally is what makes the comp work because of its efficiency and ability to regen mana at an excellent rate. The warrior can hunker down and play defensively and then put out excellent burst at clutch moments (As ARMS)It is is a great outlasting comp and um, really hard counters Hunter/ Pally... >.> <,<
And to answer your question Powerglove, Enhance shamans in spell gear are very potent now in the hands of a talented player. In the hands of an average player, you probably won't notice that much of a difference.
P.S. I have a 39 warrior, paladin, and shaman.
Concussion Blow does not crit for 1300 damage.. Try 800, on a good day. I guess prot works alright against incompetent players who focus the prot warrior in an arena... If those are the people you are trying to defeat, you could go most any spec and succeed.
Prot does not work because it does TERRIBLE damage when not being attacked, and even then, meh. As a holy pally myself, I have done some 2's with a prot warrior. Whenever I was focused, the most he could do, was dual wield, and play like a fury warrior without any talents. ;] Prot cannot put out enough pressure to force the enemy team to play defensively.
Warrior/ Paladin IS the best 2's comp for a warrior. The pally is what makes the comp work because of its efficiency and ability to regen mana at an excellent rate. The warrior can hunker down and play defensively and then put out excellent burst at clutch moments (As ARMS)It is is a great outlasting comp and um, really hard counters Hunter/ Pally... >.> <,<
And to answer your question Powerglove, Enhance shamans in spell gear are very potent now in the hands of a talented player. In the hands of an average player, you probably won't notice that much of a difference.
P.S. I have a 39 warrior, paladin, and shaman.
Alteffour
OG
Shammys have always been very solid....the people playing shammys have not always been very solid.
see the difference?
They did get a good boost though from the most recent patch, and not just from the buffs to ghost wolf.
Id prefer War/Sham over War/Disc imo, I play both. Ive done pretty well in 2s as War/Disc in NF since I xfered my priest, but I dont believe the same comp would do nearly so well in Cyclone. While I agree with useabandage that a priest can last mana wise a long long time, generally speaking they still arent going to outlast a pally the majority of the time (all skill being equal between both the heals and dps).
But I agree your best bet is probably War/Pally.
Prot is great for WSG...dunno about arenas tho. Maybe...MAYBE with a priest or shaman that is DPSing a ton also, but you can read what rock and power said about them being bad if not focused.
see the difference?
They did get a good boost though from the most recent patch, and not just from the buffs to ghost wolf.
Id prefer War/Sham over War/Disc imo, I play both. Ive done pretty well in 2s as War/Disc in NF since I xfered my priest, but I dont believe the same comp would do nearly so well in Cyclone. While I agree with useabandage that a priest can last mana wise a long long time, generally speaking they still arent going to outlast a pally the majority of the time (all skill being equal between both the heals and dps).
But I agree your best bet is probably War/Pally.
Prot is great for WSG...dunno about arenas tho. Maybe...MAYBE with a priest or shaman that is DPSing a ton also, but you can read what rock and power said about them being bad if not focused.
Powerglove
OG
Alteffour said:
non-paladin healers also go oom way faster if theyre dpsing
i tried prot in arena recently. most of the teams i faced had rogues (which i guess you can expect in this bracket), and in those cases, i still died just as fast when i got focused. the only difference was i couldn't land any attacks
point is - as prot you're stuck going defensive the entire game. as arms or fury, you can choose when to pressure and when to d up. on my warrior i have agm, lifeblood, shield block and shield wall. i dont need help staying alive under pressure.
also, I only had 20% crit as prot in my full dps gear. that's 80% chance for my conc blow to not crit if it happens to land
mossholder
OG
Powerglove said:
Some changes to spec (and more appropriate glyphs) would help quite a bit I think.
New here, and my link to wowhead's talent calc isn't working. help?
Main changes are to lose all 5 tier 6 talents, go 5/5 toughness, and move 2 more into fury so you can have 3/3 AttT and 4/5 Cruelty.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LZhLZmIzbg0zb:hbZM
On my unfinished alliance twink (which has much worse gear than yours), I have 796 ap self buffed with a mallet and shield then 996 w/ crusader proc. Add kings and your ap moves well over 1k. 1k ap = 750 unmitigated non-crit concussion blow useable in any stance and on a 30 second cooldown.
Your crit isn't 20% its 20.95%
! Pick up the 4 points in cruelty and you're back up to 25/28 % crit.I know this will change a bit if you swap out some gear/enchants for more strength and armor, but honestly the largest difference between prot and arms crit rating is the 5% in poleaxe. What you are missing most is the 2 points in improved overpower and the ability to use it on casters with taste for blood.
With the above spec and a shield, you should have 3600 armor which is 49.25% reduction and 100 free AP. Rogues shouldn't be able to burst you down easily.
Of course, you should take this with a huge grain of salt as I don't arena yet on my 39. I just have found that prot is a different beast than the other specs, and needs a bit different gear and playstyle.
p.s. I only tried to kill bandage once. Kinda like spitting into the wind.
Powerglove
OG
mossholder said:
Conc blow burst doesn't matter when you're not going to be doing any damage outside of it. I crit people for >900 with HS/cleave as arms.
And what are your other stats? If your AP with battle shout is 796 and your gear is worse than mine, you probably don't have nearly as much crit/hp as I do.
Your crit isn't 20% its 20.95%
I know this will change a bit if you swap out some gear/enchants for more strength and armor, but honestly the largest difference between prot and arms crit rating is the 5% in poleaxe. What you are missing most is the 2 points in improved overpower and the ability to use it on casters with taste for blood.
My crit modifier with yellow attacks as arms is 237%. It's 200% as prot without 1h spec. I also miss out on weapon mastery (godly talent at 39) and 0 rage sweeping strikes. Imp overpower is also the only thing that lets me keep pressure on rogues in arena.
I have something like 46% with a shield on as arms, and I have 5% more avoidance as arms (5% parry) if I'm not speccing into anticipation.
All I can say is trying to dps someone as a warrior with gimped overall damage, no anger management and no sweeping strikes makes you want to commit suicide.
I may try it again with different glyphs just for kicks, but I definitely won't play it as a serious spec.
mossholder
OG
My main purpose of proposing a different spec was to show a way to make more use of your 2h weapon and get out of defensive stance without losing all the benefits of talents used in the prot tree.
By choosing passive or multi-stance talents, you become less dependant on sword and board but maintain the benefits and utility of most of the tree.
A 900 2h crit w/ arms spec is still a 760 crit as prot, but yes that is gimped. (unless 900/2.37 is wrong math?)
Reasons I <3 the prot tree - 0/7/23
3 second silence to stop instants (battle / defensive)
5 second stun (all)
10% more armor (mitigation from front and back)
30% reduced snare for free ( ^ )
11 rage aoe slow + damage (battle / defensive)
3 second stun w/ free HS (defensive)
Last Stand (all)
15% HS TC Cleave crit +
I'm not attempting to convince you that you should switch away from arms. I've seen a couple of your vids, and you're a beast.
I'm just attempting to communicate what has worked for me and show an alternate playstyle for those arms wars out there (90% of them are it seems), that can't keep up with Ari or yourself and might find success bringing something different to the BG.
Protection doesn't mean defensive/shield 100% of the time. It's like what Magrim quoted from Bruce Lee
"When the opponent expands, I contract. When he contracts, I expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it hits all by itself."
By choosing passive or multi-stance talents, you become less dependant on sword and board but maintain the benefits and utility of most of the tree.
A 900 2h crit w/ arms spec is still a 760 crit as prot, but yes that is gimped. (unless 900/2.37 is wrong math?)
Reasons I <3 the prot tree - 0/7/23
3 second silence to stop instants (battle / defensive)
5 second stun (all)
10% more armor (mitigation from front and back)
30% reduced snare for free ( ^ )
11 rage aoe slow + damage (battle / defensive)
3 second stun w/ free HS (defensive)
Last Stand (all)
15% HS TC Cleave crit +
I'm not attempting to convince you that you should switch away from arms. I've seen a couple of your vids, and you're a beast.
I'm just attempting to communicate what has worked for me and show an alternate playstyle for those arms wars out there (90% of them are it seems), that can't keep up with Ari or yourself and might find success bringing something different to the BG.
Protection doesn't mean defensive/shield 100% of the time. It's like what Magrim quoted from Bruce Lee
"When the opponent expands, I contract. When he contracts, I expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it hits all by itself."
Powerglove
OG
mossholder said:
Well if you're talking bgs, I think prot would be a great spec. There's a ton of utility offered with decreased snare duration/silences/stuns/howl. On top of that, I'd rather take another rogue or hunter than an arms/fury war
I like that quote btw =p