EU+US Balance Druid Simulations (looking for input)

[Odjur]

Summary:
Given that players in the XPoff brackets (and PvPers as a whole) tend to have poorly optimized gear, and are thus at a disadvantage before even stepping into a BG, I wanted to do the world a favor and help prospective players gear their characters. For that reason, I developed Chardev (available on Curse).

However, while knowing how gear scales is necessary, to make use of that information one would have to know exactly how useful a given stat is to them. At level 100, this is particularly easy as a given character's primary stat scales linearly with their secondary stats, allowing them to gear based on stat "weights." The concept of stat weighting does not really exist at level 29 though, as players have the option of gearing in a way that causes their primary stats not to scale linearly with their secondary stats (i.e. gearing straight Intellect). For this reason I have begun experimenting with simulations on SimulationCraft in an attempt to understand fundamentally how gear impacts performance at any given level. This will eventually become a feature of Chardev at some point down the road, but for now I am simply doing initial testing with Balance Druids, as their rotation and role as a DPS in a BG is relatively simple: do as much damage as possible.

The following information will take different pieces of gear, of which every possible combination of those gear choices will be calculated, and build simulations holding a number of things constant to test which gear combination does the most damage in a BG scenario.

The Problem:
Why is the issue of choosing gear so difficult? Can we not just say that Intellect > Haste > Crit and call it a day? The answer to that is "sort of." While that priority holds for much of the time, there are a plethora of nuances that it fails to address, causing the ideal gear set to be difficult to identify.

If we were to abide by that stat priority exclusively, an item with 1 Intellect would be better than an item with 5,000 Crit. Obviously this is not the case, so the next step is to create stat weights; that is, to say exactly how much Intellect 1 Haste or 1 Crit is worth. This is not truly possible at level 29 as explained above, but lets break it down further than that what that explanation had to offer.

When we have 0 Intellect, 0 Haste, and 0 Crit, Intellect is the most valuable stat by a long shot, with a stat weight valuing it a bit above 3 times what Haste or Crit are valued at. This means that 1 Intellect > 3 Crit, but 1 Intellect < 4 Crit.

Now lets imagine that we have 1,000 Intellect, 0 Haste, and 0 Crit. For the sake of simplicity, lets say that 1 Intellect always causes our spells to do 1 more damage, and that 1 Crit always causes our critical strike chance to go up by 0.1%. In our first example, adding 1 more Crit when we had 0 Intellect and 0 Haste would have increased our overall damage per spell by (0 Intellect + base damage) * (0.001 * 1 Crit). If our base damage for a given spell was 5, then the damage increase of 1 Crit would be 0.005 per spell. However, in our second example the equation would be (1,000 Intellect + base damage) * (0.001 * 1 Crit). If our base damage was again 5, then the damage increase of 1 Crit would be 1.005, causing 1 Crit in our second example to be 201 times better than the Crit in our first example, and causing 1 Crit > 1 Intellect to hold true. While the majority of this example is hyperbole, it serves as a good explanation as to why stat weights are relative to your characters current stats, and cannot be treated as a foolproof guide for gearing non-level 100 characters.

To further the difficulty a bit, one must also take into consideration the future effects of adding stats to the stat total. 1 Intellect may have a certain value at a certain stat level, but it will also cause future Crit and Haste (in addition to any other stats) to be better with respect to overall damage.

The Specifics:
All non-specified settings are set to their default values.

Options > Globals

• Length (sec) = 150
• Vary Length % = 10
• Fight Style = LightMovement
• Num Enemies = 8
• Target Level = Max Player Level
• PVP Crit Damage Reduction = Enable
• World Lag = Super Low - 25 ms

Buffs/Debuffs

• Attack Power Multiplier (disabled)
• Spell Power Multiplier (disabled)
• Critical Strike (disabled)
• Versatility (disabled)

Simulate

• druid=G_X
• specialization=balance
  
• race=pandaren
• level=29
• talents=2000000
• glyphs=shapemender/grace
• [this is where the action priority list goes; more on that below]
• main_hand=wX,stats=Aint_Bcrit_Chaste,enchant=elemental_force

Action Priority List (Default Rotation):

actions.precombat=moonkin_form
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/starfire
actions+=/call_action_list,name=aoe
actions.aoe=sunfire,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<8
actions.aoe+=/moonfire,cycle_targets=1,if=remains<12
actions.aoe+=/starsurge,if=(buff.lunar_empowerment.down&eclipse_energy>40&charges>1)|charges=3
actions.aoe+=/starsurge,if=(buff.solar_empowerment.down&eclipse_energy<-40&charges>1)|charges=3
actions.aoe+=/wrath,if=(eclipse_energy<=0&eclipse_change>action.starfire.cast_time)|(eclipse_energy>0&cast_time>eclipse_change)
actions.aoe+=/starfire

To provide some explanation for the above setting choices:

• The fight length is set to 150 seconds (2 minutes, 30 seconds). The assumption this is making is that it is a skill-intensive fight that is not over in 30 seconds after one team slaughters the other.
• The fight length varies by 10% (plus or minus 15 seconds). This is very important for creating a wide berth of different fight types with a solid median result.
• The fight style is set to LightMovement. This is defined as 7 seconds of movement with an 85 second cooldown.
• There are 8 enemies in the fight. This should represent the average number of enemies attackable in a given Warsong Gulch team fight.
• The target level is set to the maximum player level. This is overridden to level 29.
• Damaging critical strikes in PvP are reduced by 50%.
• The fights are happening with 25 ms of world latency. What is the point of simulating laggy fights?
• The buffs and debuffs section is assuming that your team can provide all of the available buffs and debuffs, and that a hunter on your team has chosen to bring The Kurken for Ancient Hysteria.
• The simulation profile specifies a level 29 Pandaren Balance Druid taking Displacer Beast, Glyph of the Shapemender, and Glyph of Grace. This allows for a very generalized profile that is not faction-specific (Pandaren), and should apply for most people. The implications of this are that the numbers may be a bit different for other races, given that Pandarens have no passive racial traits that modify stats, and that NO race-specific gear will be considered in the simulations.
• X is a positive integer (ranging from 0 to some other positive integer). It is an arbitrary number denoting what simulation the program is on. A, B, and C are positive integers representing the total aggregate stats of Intellect, Crit, and Haste respectively from external sources.

Stat Choices:
This is the section that houses the "differences" between each simulation. As a reminder, the goal with this set of simulations is to find a sort of "glass cannon" build that focuses on doing as much damage as possible, but NOT to do things that would jeopardize the viability of your character.

The following items will not be considered:

• race-specific items
• items that require a paid service to obtain
• unavailable items
• time-of-year-exclusive items

Universal gear-enhancement choices:

• Enchant Neck - Gift of Haste
• Greater Crane Wing Inscription
• Enchant Cloak - Gift of Haste
• Enchant Chest - Glorious Stats
• Enchant Bracer - Superior Spellpower
  
• Enchant Gloves - Major Spellpower
  
• Greater Cerulean Spellthread
  
• Enchant Boots - Minor Speed
• 2x - Enchant Ring - Gift of Haste
  
• Enchant Weapon - Elemental Force
• Enchant Off-Hand - Major Intellect

Universal consumables:

• Elixir of Wisdom
  
• Minor Wizard Oil

Head:
Spellpower Goggles Xtreme
Preened Tribal War Feathers

Neck:
Eternal Horizon Choker
Grounding Choker / Grounding Choker
Temperature-Sensing Necklace

Shoulder:
Lasting Feralheart Spaulders
Darkcloth Shoulders of the Invoker

Back:
Ancient Bloodmoon Cloak
Cloak of Rot

Chest:
Vest of Flowing Water
Preened Ironfeather Breastplate
Robes of Koegler
Black Velvet Robes

Wrist:
Emissary Cuffs of Intellect

Hands:
Vigorous Handguards of the Vision

Waist:
Vigorous Belt of the Vision
Keller's Girdle

Legs:
Preened Wildfeather Leggings
Silk-Threaded Trousers

Feet:
Scarlet Sandals
Corpse Rompers
Acidic Walkers

Finger:
Charged Gear of Intellect
Lavishly Jeweled Ring

Trinket:
Inherited Insignia of the Alliance / Inherited Insignia of the Horde
Discerning Eye of the Beast
Rune of Perfection

Main Hand:
The Blessed Hammer of Grace

Off Hand:
Musty Tome of the Lost
Mystic Tome
Tranquility of Furien

Note: As a general guide to suggesting gear pieces, follow 1 Intellect > 1 Haste > 1 Crit, and most other stats fall beneath Haste. If there is a piece of gear that is strictly better already listed, do not suggest yours.

Points of Contention:
Any of the above choices can be contested, but as a TL;DR, here are the things I am most interested in get feedback about:

• fight length
• amount of movement in a fight (this can include crowd control time)
• the number of enemies in a fight
• whether or not Ancient Hysteria should be used (and if not, whether or not another buff be used in its place)
  
• whether or not Berserking should be used by the Druid
• whether or not Enchant Weapon - Elemental Force should be considered a universal gear-enhancement
• additional universal consumables
• additional gear choices

Please add at least a short description of why you feel the way you do about changing any of these things.

Later Simulations:
For the sake of completion, future simulations will include different races, race-specific items, items that require a paid service to obtain, and time-of-year-exclusive items. They may also consider situations that are not part of the mid-"team fight." This is all in hopes that enough information is gathered to create a systematic method of gearing characters that can be added as functionality to an addon in the future.

 

[Yapah]

I did the math for stat prioritization a while back and got something around 1 int = 2 haste = 3 vers = 4.5 crit for a caster in the 20-29 bracket. Although these are very rough numbers and can go up or down 10% due to the stat prioritization changing depending on how much spellpower you stack.

There are acceptions to this like 29 rdruid because of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=48500/living-seed in which its around 1 int = 2 haste = 2 crit = 3 vers

Also, there is no such thing as 100% BiS, for example do you go with 5 SP wrist enchant or 4 intellect which also gives 4 AP in cat/bear form. Do you use 6 SP to gloves or use 12 stamina because 6 SP won't give AP in cat/bear? Do you use main hand + off hand for the extra spellpower, or do you use heirloom staff because your abilities will do A LOT more damage in cat form with a 2h? These things are subjective and can't be figured out with any type of math.

For your simulation, if I were you I would gear towards 1 int = 2 haste = 3 vers = 4.5 crit and then work upon that to optimize your gear.

It would look something like this (if we don't take any consideration ANY stamina)
Head: 18 int engi
Neck: grounding chocker (haste)
Shoulder: heirloom (4 int 1 crit)
Cloak: 10 int worgen or cloak of rot (haste)
Chest: 15 int 6 stam or 11 int 8 stam 8 haste (not sure which is better) (+2 stats)
Wrist: 10 int 6 arcane resist gnomer wrists (5 SP)
Weapon: haste loom mace (ele force)
Offhand: 10 int (6 int enchant)
Gloves: 10 int 2 stam 5 haste satchel (6SP)
Belt: killers girdle
Legs: loom (5 int 3 crit)
Boots: walking boots (3 haste or 2 crit 2 haste)
Ring: 10 int gnomer ring (haste)
Ring: 10 int gnomer ring (haste)
Trinket: 9 int heirloom
Trinket: 9 int heirloom

 

[Odjur]

@Yapah

Are you serious?

Listen, for any prospective contributors, I totally understand if you do not grasp the content of my post. If that is the case, ask questions, or just do not post. Either is fine with me. The purpose of my work is mostly to get the information out there and help others in the future with gearing once the work has been done.

But please do not come to this post telling me that I am wrong when you clearly read or understood less than 1 out of 15 words from it.

I would rather not have to spend time disemboweling the posts of those who are ill-educated on the subject matter, and frankly, it's a bit insulting.

 

[Yapah]

Since you cannot grasp such a simple concept, I'll dumb it down as much as I possibly can for you.

Stat prioritization simply put is how much damage increase a certain stat gives.

Let's assume that starsurge is 500% spellpower.

This would mean that if you have 100 spellpower, starsurge would do 500 damage. You get add 1 spellpower and starsurge does 505 damage. Therefore, we can say at 100 spellpower, 1 intellect will increase your damage by 1%.

Now let's say you stack up a full intellect build and manage to get 200 spellpower. Starsurge would do 1000 damage. You add 1 spellpower and starsurge does 1005 damage. Therefore, we can say at 200 spellpower, 1 intellect will increase your damage by 0.5%.

Now, what does this mean? The more of a base stat you stack, the less percentage damage increase it will give. So by adding 1 spellpower to your current gearset, you can easily calculate how much damage increase 1 intellect gives you.

Now we must find the damage increase 1 haste gives, 1 crit gives, 1 vers gives.

Crit is simple. One crit gives 0.17%. Since we know in PvP that 1 crit does 50% damage, we can easily say that 1 crit = 0.085% damage increase.

Vers is simple. One vers gives 0.15% damage increase since it's just a base damage increase.

Haste is a bit more complicated, the reason being haste is not linear. The more haste you get, the less valueable it becomes. A very simplified example of this would be, at 10% haste your 1.5 second cast spell will have a cast time of 1.364 seconds. So 10% haste gives you 0.136 seconds off your GCD.

If you are at 40% haste and wish to gain 10% haste (the same number of haste) to 50% haste. Your 1.5 second cast spell will be 1.071 cast time at 40% haste and 1.0 second cast time at 50%. Therefore, the same 10% haste gives you 0.071 seconds off your GCD. That is nearly half the time as the first 10% you gained.

Now, let's say your druid is at 25% haste (for simplicity). This would mean your 1.5 second cast spell is 1.2 seconds. Now, if you add 1 haste rating, you will be 25.22%. This would make your 1.5 second cast 1.19789 seconds long. If you simply divide the first cast time you go with the new spell cast time, you will get the amount of time that 1 haste saves you. 1.2 / 1.19789 will give you 0.176%.

So we can say, at 25% haste, 1 haste rating will reduce your spell cast time by 0.176%.

Now, we have all the numbers we need in this hypothetical Druid of ours.
1 SP = 0.5% damage increase at 200 SP
1 crit = 0.085% damage increase at any crit rating
1 vers = 0.15% damage increase at any vers rating
1 haste = 0.176% damage increase at 25% haste

Now, on this hypothetical Druid of ours, with the current haste rating and spellpower he has, we can easily say from these numbers that
1 int = 2.84 haste
1 int = 3.33 vers
1 int = 5.88 crit

This stat prioritization is ONLY for that Druid in that current gearset, if he changes ANY piece of gear, he can recalculate and find his new stat prioritization.

With this method, you don't need to do your little test, any person can find their stat prioritization for their CURRENT gearset. Therefore, like I said, you should use the 1 int = 2 haste = 3 vers = 4.5 crit template that I gave you. You can work on that, and find the best stat prioritization using that that as your base gearset.

Now, I don't know why you got offended, but you should step back and take some suggestions rather than attacking the person who tried to give some legitimate advice.

 

[Odjur]

I suppose I am obligated to reply to this now.

First of all, I do not even disagree with the majority of what you said (other than the fact that your information merely acknowledges diminishing returns rather than addresses it).

Second of all, I did not ask for a gear set suggestion, nor did I ask for a stat priority or stat weights. As I so meticulously explained above gear stat weights are extremely fragile. If you were to go about the process of gearing a character and thought to yourself "I am going to start from the top down, at the helm, with this stat priority I so carefully crafted at 0 Intellect, 0 Crit, 0 Haste etc." you would find yourself with the Spellpower Goggles Xtreme being the best choice. However, if you started from the other direction, you would have substantially more Intellect and substantially less Haste when you got to the Helm, telling you that the Preened Tribal War Feathers are the best choice. Not to mention the fact that you can drop and add stats on pieces of gear in so many different ways (literally thousands) that it is totally impossible to review them all in a way that a set of stat weights can be meaningful. The only time definitive stat weights are relevant for level 29 characters is if they magically managed to pick out all but one piece of gear, and can calculate stat priorities for that last piece of gear (and even then it may not actually be a definitive choice).

Third, yes, there is such a thing as "best in slot" for a given scenario, which is solely the point of this thread. You see all of those conditions I listed? Those are to create an isolated scenario in which to test this hypothetical Druid. Nowhere in the action priority list (that is above for you to read now, given that you did not before) did I mention Cat Form. I do not care about Cat Form. I do not care about ganking an EFC or 3v3 arena or dueling or world events. I care about this specific situation in which there is a damage build that will do more raw damage than another build every time.

Fourth, none of your information actually makes sense with respect to my post. For example, if you were in an 8 enemy fight and had stacked up to 250 Spell Power without adding Haste yet, your haste stat weight would be over 125% what your Intellect stat weight was. Your Starsurge example is barely, if at all applicable to a multi-dotting scenario.

Am I not wrong to be insulted by your blatant disregard for the content of my post, and your high-and-mightiness assuming that whatever you decide to post here would be the definitive answers to my questions?

I knew within seconds of skimming your initial post that you had not read mine. None of the content you had posted resembled what I had outlined as points of contention, and you included both race-specific gear and unavailable gear in your gear suggestions, both of which I had outlined would not be considered.

 

[Yapah]

If you were to go about the process of gearing a character and thought to yourself "I am going to start from the top down, at the helm, with this stat priority I so carefully crafted at 0 Intellect, 0 Crit, 0 Haste etc." you would find yourself with the Spellpower Goggles Xtreme being the best choice. However, if you started from the other direction, you would have substantially more Intellect and substantially less Haste when you got to the Helm, telling you that the Preened Tribal War Feathers are the best choice.

Why exactly would you isolate an item and assume that you have 0 int 0 crit 0 haste?

Just looking at how much spellpower you have and how much haste you have won't tell you that heirloom head is the best choice. What you need to do is look at your entire gearset, see how much damage increase the extra SP will give, how much damage increase the extra haste will give and decide for the gearset and that gearset only. Like I said before, your stat prioritization will change for every item you change from your gearset. Stop looking at items individually and look at everything as a whole.

Not to mention the fact that you can drop and add stats on pieces of gear in so many different ways (literally thousands) that it is totally impossible to review them all in a way that a set of stat weights can be meaningful.

I agree with this, but there is a very simple solution to this, which I said in my previous post. Take a base stat prioritization (which I gave you 1 int = 2 haste = 3 vers = 4.5 crit), and gear towards this. Once you have your gearset prioritized to this, all you need to simply recalculate the stat prioritization for that gearset you just made.

I do not care about Cat Form. I do not care about ganking an EFC or 3v3 arena or dueling or world events. I care about this specific situation in which there is a damage build that will do more raw damage than another build every time.

So your gonna completely disregard one of your most powerful abilities?

Fourth, none of your information actually makes sense with respect to my post. For example, if you were in an 8 enemy fight and had stacked up to 250 Spell Power without adding Haste yet, your haste stat weight would be over 125% what your Intellect stat weight was. Your Starsurge example is barely, if at all applicable to a multi-dotting scenario.

Did you even read my post? Let me reiterate:
At 100 spellpower, 1 added spellpower will increase damage by 1%
At 200 spellpower, 1 added spellpower will increase damage by 0.5%
So, haste would be twice as good at 200 spellpower than it would be at 100 spellpower.

I took the stat prioritization in terms of 200 spellpower which 1 int = 2.84 haste
If I took the stat prioritization in terms of 100 spellpower, given that everything else stayed the same, it would be 1 int = 5.68 haste

So yes, I am aware that with more spellpower, haste will become more valuable, if you actually bothered reading my post carefully you could see, that is taken into consderation in the stat prioritization.

And yes, the Starsurge example is 100% applicable to a multi-dotting situation. Let me explain how:
We assumed that starsurge was 500% spellpower in my previous post, now lets assume that the dot is 400% spellpower over a given period of time.
This would mean, at 100 SP my damage is 400, at 101 SP its 404, again a 1% increase
This would mean, at 200 SP my damage is 800, at 201 SP its 804, again at 0.5% increase

Since my gearset is the complete same for my multi-dotting situation, my haste is again 0.176%, my crit is again 0.085%, my vers is again 0.15%

So? What do we get? 0.5% increase from 1 SP, 0.176% from 1 haste, 0.085% from 1 crit, 0.15% from 1 vers?

Oh would you look at that,
1 int = 2.84 haste
1 int = 3.33 vers
1 int = 5.88 crit
THE EXACT SAME THING

 

[Odjur]

Let me blow your mind real quick. These were done with all of the above settings, and at 100 and 200 Spell Power respectively. If you really care, I can send you the .html file result of the sims.

 

[Yapah]

Let me blow your mind real quick. These were done with all of the above settings, and at 100 and 200 Spell Power respectively. If you really care, I can send you the .html file result of the sims.

How is this suppose to blow my mind?
This is exactly what I have been saying?
At 200 spellpower, haste is much more valueable than at 100 spellpower.

 

[Odjur]

The stat weight in the second simulation came out with 1 Intellect = 0.75 Haste.

You know what, none of this even matters. Why don't you just give me a gear set and I will come back to you with how many gear sets I can get to do more damage than it.

 

[Yapah]

Please tell me your joking
Please tell me you don't actually believe 1 int = 0.75 haste
Holy fuck man

 

[Odjur]

It depends on the environment and situation, but yes. If you were curious, I ran it again with 0.011% and 0.012% error respectively for adding 1 Haste and 10 Haste. From 829 DPS it moved up to 832 and 851 for a Haste scale factor of 2.22 (1 Intellect = 0.75 Haste). This is exactly what I would have expected to happen.

 

[2xtwinker]

Great thread however could you explain why both crit necks seem to be better than the haste neck?

 

[Odjur]

Great thread however could you explain why both crit necks seem to be better than the haste neck?

In terms of damage output, either Grounding Choker or Temperature-Sensing Necklace is superior to any other options, as the former has the highest Intellect value of any given options, and the latter has Haste as opposed to the full Crit of Eternal Horizon Choker. Realistically (as in, without a Warlock) Eternal Horizon Choker offers the most "throughput," as not having that CD is what many would consider jeopardizing the viability of your character.

Also, I do not know if I explicitly stated this anywhere, but if anyone has forgotten, most of this gear has stats that change when scaled to item level 34.

 

[Omghax]

The issue I see with the OP's approach is that it is too sterile. We're not talking raiding here. Yes you can see a 32dps increase over a specific timeline within specific parameters but are these simulations close enough to reality to be worthwhile? Plus this simulation also ignores other party member's damage, so how much of your direct damage is overkill?

I appreciate theorycrafting for sure, I just question if these simulations will get us any better understanding of stat synergies. After a pencil is sharp enough, further sharpening just reduces it's length.

Bob

 

[Dubeez]

TLDR. HOLY FUCK.

 

[Hashbrowns]

Right this has been a big focus of mine in the past. It's very hard to quantify BiS for PvP.

When it comes down to it all you can do is take a raiding approach. It's very easy to say well I like crit, it's very bursty. But that statement is susceptible to your own personal bias (you remember the good games that were crit heavy and forget the bad ones)

I will say that after I finished running my Mage through my own spreadsheets she was very haste heavy and it didn't feel right. It was solid damage just very flat, couldn't put any pressure on anyone. A crit can force someone to make a move, that could be countered. How do you quantify that? You can't really... I switched to the crit staff to up that a bit but again, that might be my personal bias.

I think it has it's place to get you really close. It's certainly something I still do and will continue too. But will probably tweek things based on play style once I'm in there.

Would love to see a Simulationcraft brought to 20s though It's something I wanted to add to F2PDev in the past, just got too busy with real life and a few expansions behind. Glad to see someone else taking the reigns.

 

[Hashbrowns]

On a side note, I'm unable to get CharDev to load any gear... what am I doing wrong? Does it need to scan my inventory first?

 

[Odjur]

Noop, it should just work as an item browser, similar in concept to WoWhead's. I will make a tutorial on its use and applications in the future, though for now, after the items finish loading you should be able to simply click search and check everything out. Right now it is pretty limited in its filtering capabilities, and the only real functionality is item level scaling.

Someone else had told me they were getting an error whenever they tried to search (and admittedly I haven't done any bug testing outside of my setup) so I would like to isolate any issues whenever they arise.