85 Simcraft Discussion

[digitalizm]

It was even without tentacles possible to deal 50k~ or even more and I am talking about dragonsoul heroic gear, not even weapons beyond 470 (or 480).
Frost Death Knight rankings for Ultraxion - Dragon Soul - World of Logs
closest to a patchwerk fight, so I'd assume with a lute or even a boa spear the possible output in combination with 450 items or 463 alchi stone (which is even at 90 better than quite a lot comparable items) is way higher.
+ 30% of fight heroism, pre + infight pot (mogu also way more strength than golemblood), mop flask + 250str food. dunno, they may be exaggerated up to 5-10%~, but possible? probably


those logs look btw pretty pre-MoP-prepatch
#1 dk is 17/04, which is before they buffed 2h to be on par

should be way more even with dragonsoul heroic gear nowadays

 

[Amaya]

Any spec dk has 1 sec gcd since MoP hit. Since haste lowers the rune recharge rate it leads to more obliterates, meaning more rime procs meaning more runic power meaning more frost strikes meaning more runic empowerment procs meaning for obliterates, repeating in a glorious cycle of carnage. It also lowers the weap swing timer causing killing machine to proc more often.

Mastery is prio #1 for dual wield so i assume crit is > mastery for 2h due to the insane damage obliterate does with might of the frozen wastes (+40% OB dmg if using 2h).

Blood Tap is better than Runic Empowerment...

Edit: And I could have sworn I was sustaining 60k DPS as 2H Frost without a Sun Lute on a ??? Target Dummy.

 

[digitalizm]

as dualwield yes, there isnt a noticable difference as 2h, atleast if you are capable of using blood tap (there arent many players who are).
calculations can be found somewhere on ej, cba looking for it.

 

[Splosion]

BT isn't better for 2H for the simple fact that every rune 2H gets can be used on obliterate. BT is better for DW because it provides more death runes -> more howling blasts.

Issue with the linked logs is that 90% of those DKs are DW frost, as the deathwing axes were just plain better than gurthalak.

Even if 60k is sustainable on a 93 dummy by an 85 (wat, you need a massive amount of extra hit so I doubt it), 105k seems a little outlandish, even for ~50% BL uptime.

 

[Givecake]

Kek. TDLR version.

I've never used BT. Highest dps spec by far is Mists of Pandaria - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft And chill with the uncalled for cursing.

If you have bloodlust > 4x 320 crit wins.

If you don't have BL > 4x 320 haste gems wins. This difference is in the few hundreds range.

What my dk (sig) use + Sun-Lute is BiS for fights around 80-120 seconds. 2pc t13 is a ~1100 dps gain on a 400 second fight.

If you use 2pc t13 use shoulders + legs with 50 str gems. Forge the legs to expertise.

Self buffed is about ~83k dps. All buffs/debuffs (no lust) is ~10k more and using all + BL is 105k dps (my current setup). Recalled numbers for giving you an image on the benifits of using said buffs.

I've been as high as 160k on the last boss in Vortex but these heroic bosses don't last long enough for lust to end so they're worthless for measurement.

There's some sort of treshold i don't know what to do with when simming 4x 320 haste/crit gems using no bloodlust.on 100 sec... raid bosses iirc. Crit jumps up and surpasses haste by crazy numbers (close to that of prime stats), with haste being utterly worthless - yet following the stat weights and changing gems equals a dps loss.

I think it's an important lesson to be learned here that stat weights means jack zip, really. Sim your character and find what's the best for your gear setup or suffer the deeps loss like a newb.

 

[Splosion]

Kek. TDLR version.

I've never used BT. Highest dps spec by far is Mists of Pandaria - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft And chill with the uncalled for cursing.

So you're linking a spec that has a whole two dps talents? We already said RE was better for 2H because there's no benefit to BT at all.

I think it's an important lesson to be learned here that stat weights means jack zip, really. Sim your character and find what's the best for your gear setup or suffer the deeps loss like a newb.

No, not at all. Stat weights are exactly what you gain from simming your character. There isn't any point that stat weights from somewhere are going to match every single setup of gear, because that isn't how the stats in the game interact with one another.

Even considering that, is it really necessary to go that far? You're talking about content that was on farm on heroic from the start (unlike ICC, even at 30% the end bosses of that shit were hard), and was completely puggable on heroic in the few months that led to the end of cataclysm.

Sure simcraft and all that, but you're talking about the difference between a few hundred dps (you've not said the exact settings you're using in simcraft, or as to why your dps output is nearly double what was good on the patchwerk boss way back when), over fights where dps does not matter at all.

 

[Givecake]

So you're linking a spec that has a whole two dps talents? We already said RE was better for 2H because there's no benefit to BT at all.

So less posting and more moving on.

No, not at all. Stat weights are exactly what you gain from simming your character. There isn't any point that stat weights from somewhere are going to match every single setup of gear, because that isn't how the stats in the game interact with one another.

Exactly. So sim your character and find what's best for your character and your setup.

Even considering that, is it really necessary to go that far? You're talking about content that was on farm on heroic from the start (unlike ICC, even at 30% the end bosses of that shit were hard), and was completely puggable on heroic in the few months that led to the end of cataclysm.

Let's all copy this satisfactory mindset for mediocrity and see how many BiS lists produced. And what ungodly thing did you smoke to get the genius idea to complain about min/maxing going on in a SimulationCraft thread?

Sure simcraft and all that, but you're talking about the difference between a few hundred dps (you've not said the exact settings you're using in simcraft, or as to why your dps output is nearly double what was good on the patchwerk boss way back when), over fights where dps does not matter at all.

Refer to post #11 .

 

[Splosion]

Exactly. So sim your character and find what's best for your character and your setup.

So you're agreeing with me, except a second ago you were saying stat weights mean nothing? I don't even...

Let's all copy this satisfactory mindset for mediocrity and see how many BiS lists produced. And what ungodly thing did you smoke to get the genius idea to complain about min/maxing going on in a SimulationCraft thread?

Sigh. Besides min-maxing, and only counting for extremely short fights (which is all you're counting on for your extremely nerfed content, right), what exactly is this for?

Refer to post #11 .

Gonna sim this for myself because I've got nothing else to do. But, you still aren't quite answering my question.

 

[digitalizm]

Kek. TDLR version.

I've never used BT. Highest dps spec by far is Mists of Pandaria - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft And chill with the uncalled for cursing.

I imported your character, so - you tell me I am lying and changed it on purpose? Why would I? Where would be my point? "trolling" ? No, that seems to be your point.

If you have bloodlust > 4x 320 crit wins.

If you don't have BL > 4x 320 haste gems wins. This difference is in the few hundreds range.

ikr, its called hastecap for a reason and nothing new

What my dk (sig) use + Sun-Lute is BiS for fights around 80-120 seconds. 2pc t13 is a ~1100 dps gain on a 400 second fight.

If you use 2pc t13 use shoulders + legs with 50 str gems. Forge the legs to expertise.

Self buffed is about ~83k dps. All buffs/debuffs (no lust) is ~10k more and using all + BL is 105k dps (my current setup). Recalled numbers for giving you an image on the benifits of using said buffs.

I've been as high as 160k on the last boss in Vortex but these heroic bosses don't last long enough for lust to end so they're worthless for measurement.

There's some sort of treshold i don't know what to do with when simming 4x 320 haste/crit gems using no bloodlust.on 100 sec... raid bosses iirc. Crit jumps up and surpasses haste by crazy numbers (close to that of prime stats), with haste being utterly worthless - yet following the stat weights and changing gems equals a dps loss.

I think it's an important lesson to be learned here that stat weights means jack zip, really. Sim your character and find what's the best for your gear setup or suffer the deeps loss like a newb.

You just throw in words and arguments which have not even a proof, do you even understand what you are talking about?
Crit cannot surpass haste besides a fight where you'd have 50% BL uptime, because haste loses value (hastecap anyone?).
Besides that, as we already concluded, simcalc for 85s means nothing, because the mechanics arent calculated correct.

also crit devalued as frost because of km.

tl;dr u make me fucking mad


/e: sidenote
gem spirit and reforge spirit, you will surpass 100k anyway in a fight with all buffs + 50% bl uptime, I know what I am talking about, playing the class since wotlk.

 

[Givecake]

So you're agreeing with me, except a second ago you were saying stat weights mean nothing? I don't even...

In retrospective my mention that stat weights meaning jack zip was a bit on the bold side (that's all you get from me!) These two parts are directly related to each other, i added the sentence gap to make the text blob easier to read. I don't recall what i simmed to get these results but the weights looked like this:

Strength: 4.71
Crit Rating: 4.63
Haste rating: 2.62

The decimals are roughly estimated since i've forgot the exacts but that was the gist of it all. Str = Crit > Haste > Mastery was my simmed prioroty, yet as mentioned, following this prio and replacing my 4x 320 haste gems with 4x 320 crit gems was a dps loss of a 200-400 dps or so. WIth this in mind it's we can see that stat weights aren't always trustworthy, and shouldn't be followed blindly. For best results one should consider all options available and simulate them thorougly.

Sigh. Besides min-maxing, and only counting for extremely short fights (which is all you're counting on for your extremely nerfed content, right), what exactly is this for?

The process of improving my characters gear is a joyment factor i hold in the highest regard playing any RPG and since i quit WoW raiding a long time ago, the only aspect of WoW offering me this is the twinking aspect of the game. This process cannot begin unless i know what my goal is. So what this all is for - it's to find the gear setup yielding the highest theorethical dps the database has to offer.

You are absolutely correct that using dps from simulations of fights with lengths even as low as SC's lowest 80 seconds are of no relevance as such a fight still is too long to correspond with reality.

I slap myself for what ever gibberish i've been practicing for the DK so far. What i did on my ele shaman to conclude BiS and what i should've done from the start of my DK sims is looking on how to reach the highest peak dps possible.

No fight will last SimCraft's assumed 80-120 sec, therefore using an average dps from this unrealistically long fight is only inaccurate and shouldn't be used as measurement for accuracy. The only thing i realistically can rely on is the fact that i in all fights will reach a peak in my dps, and from there gradually lose dps as the fight continues.

By working towards increasing my highest theorethical peak dps (as well as lowering the time to hit this peak, if possible) should be the most reliable way to know i'm dealing the highest numbers i can in the fights i'm fighting, which more accurately are of 15s to 60s in length. Asking anyone with an opinion - does this make sense?

 

[Splosion]

if an 80-120sec fight length (for 85 content) is too short (the entire point I was trying to make), then a 15-60sec fight would be even more ludicrous. I know DS has been nerfed but really, the later fights last much longer than that.

 

[Aelobin]

Dayum, it's getting hot in here.

If this is all for min-maxing 5man heroic DPS, wouldn't it be better to only sim with self buffs as you have no guarentee of what classes you'll be grouped with? Especially BL since it makes such a massive difference on a short fight.

Also, regarding stat weights and changing gems. Maybe those stat weights are only accurate for a small window of change (aka: the dps gain of crit might be higher with your current stats, but haste's value may be increasing at a faster rate). What I'm trying to say is, maybe it'd be worth changing just 1 gem at a time instead of a massive 1280 haste->crit.

 

[Givecake]

if an 80-120sec fight length (for 85 content) is too short (the entire point I was trying to make), then a 15-60sec fight would be even more ludicrous. I know DS has been nerfed but really, the later fights last much longer than that.

Target level has been 87 since page one, i assumed we're all on that page by now. Nevertheless, heroic 5 man bosses is what i assumed the 15-60s length on.

Digitalizm - The purpose of the tldr post was to share with anyone who's reading what i've learned using SimCraft so far. I do not lie, i do not troll and i do not make things up. That'd defeat the whole purpose of sharing knowledge - if it's false, i'm sure you can agree.

Anyone know on what % haste (using BL) rune capping becomes an issue?

 

[Aelobin]

Anyone know on what % haste (using BL) rune capping becomes an issue?

You won't be "rune-capped" until you hit 230% haste (200% with BL). That reduces your rune regen speed to 3s per rune, allowing you to spam Obliterate back to back indefinitely. I guess you mean including RP but I'm not sure there really is a "cap" (if there is it would be painful to calculate as you'd have to consider GCDs too).

Which reminds me, ERW on such a short fight will be devaluing haste a lot too (not just BL).