85 Simcraft Discussion

Givecake

Legend
Jonqui said:
Wellllllllllllllllllllllll.... judging since dancing steel has no cd's it can proc almost 100% of the time which them = to about 3200 agil - even with my character having over 70% res and about 50k +, I CANT LIVE.. I don't know that the mastery is greater here, also due to there's a chance that mastery proc will even go off......
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Got curious on what's what so i did some simming on a 80 twink i found in one of the threads here on the forum. (This guy!). 25k iterations on a 100 sec patchwerk fight, just to see numbers. Deterministic rng: check. Target: level 80 (player lvl) humanoid. No buffs or debuffs enabled.

Dancing/windsong peak dps: 49996 dps . Highest hit: 4228832.2 . Avg dps: 35367 dps
Dancing/dancing's peak dps: 50032 dps . Highest hit: 4211813.91 . Avg dps: 35365 dps
Windsong/windsong peak dps: 49964 dps . Highest hit: 4232424.21 . Avg dps: 35366 dps

Remember this is a target without resi, also using pot/flask. Still, some information is better than no info and the above should give some sort of hint. I'm not familiar with rogue and i'm also curious, with the 3 variations of enchants this close together, which would be most preferable?
 
Re: 80 Twink

Givecake said:
Got curious on what's what so i did some simming on a 80 twink i found in one of the threads here on the forum. (This guy!). 25k iterations on a 100 sec patchwerk fight, just to see numbers. Deterministic rng: check. Target: level 80 (player lvl) humanoid. No buffs or debuffs enabled.

Dancing/windsong peak dps: 49996 dps . Highest hit: 4228832.2 . Avg dps: 35367 dps
Dancing/dancing's peak dps: 50032 dps . Highest hit: 4211813.91 . Avg dps: 35365 dps
Windsong/windsong peak dps: 49964 dps . Highest hit: 4232424.21 . Avg dps: 35366 dps

Remember this is a target without resi, also using pot/flask. Still, some information is better than no info and the above should give some sort of hint. I'm not familiar with rogue and i'm also curious, with the 3 variations of enchants this close together, which would be most preferable?
Click to expand...

Mastery buffs finishers by more than dancing steel does. But why do you keep using 100sec patchwerk fight? I know fights don't last long with MoP gear but that isn't an effective way of measuring DPS, just because of early cooldowns and proc uptimes(especially using trinkets like DBW)
 
Re: 80 Twink

Splosion said:
Mastery buffs finishers by more than dancing steel does. But why do you keep using 100sec patchwerk fight? I know fights don't last long with MoP gear but that isn't an effective way of measuring DPS, just because of early cooldowns and proc uptimes(especially using trinkets like DBW)
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I know what you mean, i'm not about scoring highest dps possible for e-peen or w/e but learning what i should wear to perform most optimally on a fight i may encounter. There's no sense in simming a 6 minute fight and using those stat weights when i'll never be in a 6 minute fight, don't you agree?

What i want to use on my DK for example differ alot depending on fight length. If the fight lasted ~12 minutes then i'd want 4x 320 haste gems, but since no fight i'll encounter will last longer than ~100 seconds, i want to gem towards that 100 sec fight, which makes crit gems pull ahead (for my 2h frost spec).
 
Re: 80 Twink

Givecake said:
Got curious on what's what so i did some simming on a 80 twink i found in one of the threads here on the forum. (This guy!). 25k iterations on a 100 sec patchwerk fight, just to see numbers. Deterministic rng: check. Target: level 80 (player lvl) humanoid. No buffs or debuffs enabled.

Dancing/windsong peak dps: 49996 dps . Highest hit: 4228832.2 . Avg dps: 35367 dps
Dancing/dancing's peak dps: 50032 dps . Highest hit: 4211813.91 . Avg dps: 35365 dps
Windsong/windsong peak dps: 49964 dps . Highest hit: 4232424.21 . Avg dps: 35366 dps

Remember this is a target without resi, also using pot/flask. Still, some information is better than no info and the above should give some sort of hint. I'm not familiar with rogue and i'm also curious, with the 3 variations of enchants this close together, which would be most preferable?
Click to expand...

wouldnt personally trust any dk who puts critgems into his gear


btw, plain numbers
windsong mastery 98% more finisher damage
windsong haste 45~ (wow adjusts downwards, otherwise it would be 45,7) energy in 12 seconds for free + additional hits (rupture/garrote ticks? dont know if it scales)
crit is crit, 33~%

eviscerate scales with ap, dancing steel gives agility, before kings it gives 1650*1.3*2 AP, additionally to your AP (4290), this is without kings.
rogue needs 83,15 agility for 1% of physical crit (agility only gives physical crit). so 19,80%

regarding burst damage windsong should be atleast in 2/3 cases the leading choice, crit windsong is, by no means, inferior, as you will probably end up with 11x - 12x %, depending on your gear.
 
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Re: 80 Twink

digitalizm said:
wouldnt personally trust any dk who puts critgems into his gear
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Feel free to check sim my dk and check. I know the general concensus is haste > crit > mastery, but what is the right prio may change due to various variables. My spec/gear sims with crit gems102987 dps vs haste gems 102351 dps on a 100 sec fight. I don't do PvE, i barely play my DK at all. When i do PvE, i do 5 man heroics. Safe to say those will never live longer than 100 sec, alas, i'm doing it right.
 
Re: 80 Twink

Lichborne @ Kazzak [EU] - WoW Reforge Calculator
http://i.imgur.com/ZUm0MqP.png
assumption seems quite correct, besides a weird expertise/hit ep, which could also occur because it assumes the boss is 92 instead of 87 (which iam not even sure of), this maybe sth i could look into, but even if it would be the fact (which would result into some other problems), the plain stat rankings as haste > crit > mastery, are correct.
100s fight, heroic dungeon boss, 10k iterations

also, on a sidenote, simcalc for level lower than max level characters is wrong, it already feels wrong for max level because its calculations are too plain.

who told you crit would be stronger in short fights than haste? (besides blowing ERW there is nothing which could affect haste as stat, regardless of duration)
is your crit higher? is your haste lower?
killing machine is a ppm, iirc 20% for 2h frost, ppm scales with haste, the window of a minute shortens, so it wont higher your chance of km procs, it shortens the window of calculations, which higher the occurence of km procs.
it lowers your rune depletion ("rune speed"), which also gives you higher rp/second (more runes to spend, more rp to spend, more bt, more runes again).
its not a matter of 85-90, its a matter of understanding the class and the game mechanics. crit being stronger than haste is nothing than an illusion, crit cannot be stronger than haste, except if you are runecapped (you cant spend the runes you regen), which you arent



oh, btw haste is a cheaper rating/% itemstat than crit :]



/e: wheres gripalot when i need him?
 
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Re: 80 Twink

He's banned.

Tbh, I can't really see any massive reason to still be playing 2H frost in PvE atm. Unholy scales HUGELY better with gear, and doesn't devalue crit at all. Besides, in 5.2 it'll probably be better because we can't get the t15 set bonuses either.

However, you should never take simcraft as absolute because a) at low iterations it can produce strange results and b) it doesn't tend to work very well with twink brackets (they remove a lot of the out-of-date procs and stuff to make the program less bloated).

Incidentally, why not using 2pc t13 for either DPS spec? It's remarkably good, and makes haste an even better stat for both specs.
 
Re: 80 Twink

Splosion said:
He's banned.

Tbh, I can't really see any massive reason to still be playing 2H frost in PvE atm. Unholy scales HUGELY better with gear, and doesn't devalue crit at all. Besides, in 5.2 it'll probably be better because we can't get the t15 set bonuses either.

However, you should never take simcraft as absolute because a) at low iterations it can produce strange results and b) it doesn't tend to work very well with twink brackets (they remove a lot of the out-of-date procs and stuff to make the program less bloated).

Incidentally, why not using 2pc t13 for either DPS spec? It's remarkably good, and makes haste an even better stat for both specs.
Click to expand...

My findings is that t13 shoulders + legs is BiS for a frost dk, earning me some 1.5-2.5k dps (this was on a long fight). I'm just having troubles acquiring the pieces. :)

Reason i run frost over unholy is 1) frost sims higher by quite a few thousand dps on any length fight and reforge. 2) In the raids i've been in, the bosses die too fast to warrant the ramp up time on ghoul transformations + the runic power req on gargoyle.

When i'm as unholy have ghoul/gargoyle and am ready to bring some the hurt, it's probably in between pre-pot > pot cd wait time, my alchemy trinket is on icd and the boss is probably near death. Playing frost, i'm good to go from the first second of the pull.

About the whole crit vs haste debate. I've simmed and simmed and simmed, i've spent hours upon hours looking at my generated stat weights (which are incredably close, and crit really does pull ahead on a short fight), comparing and theorycrafting as well as testing it by playing. I don't want to go further into the discussion since it's both off topic and i know i'm right.

The short version, in hopes i soothe you at least a bit digitalizm is that shorter the fight, the less runes returned by the increased haste, which in my case of 4x 320 gems is roughly 0.4 sec. Over a longer fight, the more runes, the more obliterates, the more RP, the more damage, you know the drill.

Since i'm fighting the fights i'm fighting - which don't last more than a minute or two - the extra haste don't get the chance to equal or overcome the weight of my current extra ~13% (or what it was) crit.
 
Re: 80 Twink

Givecake said:
Dancing/windsong peak dps: 49996 dps . Highest hit: 4228832.2 . Avg dps: 35367 dps
Dancing/dancing's peak dps: 50032 dps . Highest hit: 4211813.91 . Avg dps: 35365 dps
Windsong/windsong peak dps: 49964 dps . Highest hit: 4232424.21 . Avg dps: 35366 dps
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused by those "Highest hit" numbers 0.o Is it just me or does that say 4.2mil? Surely that can't be right.

digitalizm said:
besides a weird expertise/hit ep, which could also occur because it assumes the boss is 92 instead of 87 (which iam not even sure of)
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You can tell Simcraft to use a different player or target level by putting this in the Overrides tab:
Code: 
level=85
target_level=87
That will override the level in the Simulate tab, so you don't need to change it everytime you import.
 
As I already said, SC is weird for 85 purposes. (thanks aelo :p)
Again, 50k Iterations, Level 85, Target 87, highered BT priority for more accurate results.
actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=daelos_final_words,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<1|dot.frost_fever.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>76
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=blood=2|frost=2|unholy=2
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&frost=0
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack<=10
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>=20
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

removed golemblood, as you will use mogu for max dps, calculated every stat.
will do statplots simcalc tonight, because it takes too long if i'd do it right now and i'd had to stop everything else for probably 2-3 hours. adding the chart afterwards.
besides, what splosion said, simcalc isnt really accurate, especially for lower levels, even, atleast partial, at maxlevel.

haste is good if you are able to stick on the target, its relative statweight will drop the more movement/dps-stop requirements a certain fight has. strength wont nor will crit.

chart

weird hit/exp ratios will remain, again. dayum
 
Aelobin said:
I'm a bit confused by those "Highest hit" numbers 0.o Is it just me or does that say 4.2mil? Surely that can't be right.
Click to expand...

Surely it can't. I saw a lengthy 400 something and assumed it was 400k, which made sense. I must've looked somewhere i shouldn't have.

digitalizm said:
As I already said, SC is weird for 85 purposes. (thanks aelo :p)
Again, 50k Iterations, Level 85, Target 87, highered BT priority for more accurate results.
actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=daelos_final_words,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<1|dot.frost_fever.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>76
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=blood=2|frost=2|unholy=2
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&frost=0
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack<=10
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>=20
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

removed golemblood, as you will use mogu for max dps, calculated every stat.
will do statplots simcalc tonight, because it takes too long if i'd do it right now and i'd had to stop everything else for probably 2-3 hours. adding the chart afterwards.
Click to expand...

You run BT over RE yet calls me out for gemming crit?! I'm almost offended.. :p

besides, what splosion said, simcalc isnt really accurate, especially for lower levels, even, atleast partial, at maxlevel.
Click to expand...

Probably. Though it's all we've got so there's not much else to do. :) The 2pc t13 bonus is at least still in the system.

Made an important discovery just now that 2pc t13 is only a dps increase on fights longer than 100 sec. Ghostforged shoulders/legs pull ahead of using the 2pc counterparts on a 100 sec fight by ~600 dps. Running 400 sec, the 2pc t13 pulled ahead by ~1100 dps. I used 25k iterations for these results.


All buffs and debuffs toggled, target lvl 87, 50.000 iterations, 80-120 sec fight, skill level elite with Deterministic RNG enabled is what i've used for all of the following.

Talents (the highest dps spec for frost 2h): Talent Calculator - Game Guide - World of Warcraft.

Action priority list. Note that i've moved Obliterate on KM on top over Howling Blast on Rime as it yields higher dps, which is in line with how far ahead OB is on the DPET chart, more than double that of frost strike.

Random useful bit of info - Using 2pc t13 does not make HB/Rime pull ahead, OB/KM prio yields a few hundred more dps than HB/Rime prio on a fight long enough to make t13 2pc worth using. (I used 400 sec here).

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=charbroiled_tiger_steak
actions.precombat+=/frost_presence
actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion
actions.precombat+=/pillar_of_frost
actions.precombat+=/raise_dead

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=daelos_final_words,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=blood=2|frost=2|unholy=2
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&frost=0
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack<=10
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up|buff.golemblood_potion.up)
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

Simming time!

Results using 4x 320 crit gems:

20130205-lsxp-78kb.jpg

Haste weights more, must gem haste. Let's gem haste.

Results using 4x 320 haste gems:

20130205-qfc2-79kb.jpg

Haste still weights more, always has been, yet gemming haste is a dps loss. Screw logic, let's gem crit and win.
 
Haste is a loss because you end up GCD capped and you waste resources. I don't see how crit > mastery though.
 
Amaya said:
Haste is a loss because you end up GCD capped and you waste resources. I don't see how crit > mastery though.
Click to expand...

Any spec dk has 1 sec gcd since MoP hit. Since haste lowers the rune recharge rate it leads to more obliterates, meaning more rime procs meaning more runic power meaning more frost strikes meaning more runic empowerment procs meaning for obliterates, repeating in a glorious cycle of carnage. It also lowers the weap swing timer causing killing machine to proc more often.

Mastery is prio #1 for dual wield so i assume crit is > mastery for 2h due to the insane damage obliterate does with might of the frozen wastes (+40% OB dmg if using 2h).
 
What buffs are you considering? If BL is involved, then haste almost immediately loses its value anyway. Thus, this discussion is moot in it's entirety.

However, haste does devalue itself because of resource capping. Chances are, you just happen to be on the threshold (I don't play frost anymore, so I don't care to check what that threshold is). But, 105k seems a little high for unbuffed dps, even on a fight that's less than 2 minutes.
 
105k dps does seem a bit high. Are you actually seeing 100k+ dps on single-target heroic bosses in-game (on a regular basis)?

Using my soloing gear in Frost (hit/exp caps > haste > mastery) only nets me about 50k-60k unbuffed, even with a Sun-Lute.
 
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