84's are probably just better (PvP)

[Amaya]

We (80 only players who despise 81+) have been lucky so far in that 99% of 84s are out and out terrible and don't min max at all, but as soon as good 84s with maxed out gear start appearing there will be nothing we can do other than quit (with the exception of possibly certain ranged casters).

Resil scaling helps a lot with combating 84's massive health pools, but it is not enough. The maximum effective health for an 80 Prot Warrior is around 400,000. For an 84 is 550,000...backed by 10k AP, more than any PvP geared melee DPS will have.

Even though it appears as if 84 secondary stats are inferior they do have an advantage in at least one regard, they can gem in 1280 PvP Power (roughly 16%) with Blacksmithing. The trade off being an equal loss of resil.

Still a properly geared 84 should be looking at 250k effective health and 16% PvP Power. Getting that much effective health at 80 without gimping offensive capabilites severely is nearly impossible. A TG Fury Warrior can get around 225k, but that is only due to the massive amount of stats gained from a second Door Breaker. Most other classes will be under 150k effective health and 10% PvP Power.

I don't want to deter people from playing, but people should be aware that a shift towards dominance could occur in the near future. Just a warning for those about to invest a great deal of time in twinks.

 

[CatdogFx]

Doesnt matter when the noobs dnt play with a pvp trinket and get globalled in a fist of justice anyway )

 

[Amaya]

I haven't seen a single BiS Warrior/DK/Paladin running around yet at 84. I can pretty much guarantee that you're not killing a 170k+ HP, 40% resil+, 50% armor+, melee in a FoJ at 80.

 

[CatdogFx]

40% ressi would be irrelevant seeing as thats just base ressi now so, and 80 rets can hit hard as hell, a good geard 80 twink if not a healer cant survive a FoJ without trinketing if a ret uses wings. After that being said seeing as your only counting base ressi into theyre defense pretty much , what about warlocks? they do SICK Dmg due to scaling on 80, im sure a lock could kill an 84 aswell, besides the ppl that play 84 normally are the ones that got owned on 80 and try to take the advantage of being 84 in the bracket to get more HP. Played 80 twink since the start of cata pretty much and I have never seen a good 84 twink, yes theyre have been good geard ones but not a Good player.

 

[RedRussian]

84 bis warlock has the same % of mastery as his 80 counterpart and 14k spd. What 80 dominance you're talking about?

 

[CatdogFx]

Who said i talking about mastery?

 

[RedRussian]

84 lock still deals a way more damage than 80.

 

[CatdogFx]

Perhaps yes, but just stating that 84s dont dominate 80s like the topic is about and prob never will, even with all the new gear

 

[Sixpence]

An 84 warlock's chaos bolt almost certainly 1 shots any level 80 twink until they hit about 70% resi, assuming the warlock doesn't have mastery or crit windsong procs up. Then you have the instant incinerates, conflags and shadowburn execute.

There is a huge circlejerk about how much better a level 80 is, but with the release of MoP gear, 84's are just superior in pvp.

Doesnt matter when the noobs dnt play with a pvp trinket and get globalled in a fist of justice anyway

If the 84's you're playing against don't use a PVP trinket, you're really in no place to comment on their blatant superiority.

 

[CatdogFx]

An 84 warlock's chaos bolt almost certainly 1 shots any level 80 twink until they hit about 70% resi, assuming the warlock doesn't have mastery or crit windsong procs up. Then you have the instant incinerates, conflags and shadowburn execute.

There is a huge circlejerk about how much better a level 80 is, but with the release of MoP gear, 84's are just superior in pvp.



If the 84's you're playing against don't use a PVP trinket, you're really in no place to comment on their blatant superiority.

My point exactly, the 84s are played by dumb 12 year old kids who stack pure dmg glass canon 84s, ye sure they might 1 shot u with a chaosbolt but the skill lvl of them is like playing against a backpeddling 1k rated scrub. Most ppl playing 80s are far more superior skill wise and brainwise lol, show me a good 84 twink and ill accept the fact that they are better. (Not talking about gear, cause lets face it gearing your twink is based on how much RNG luck and gold in your pocket you have)

Edit: P.S If your not smart enough to avoid a chaosbolt with w/E class you are, your quite dumb aswell seeing as if your in the twink bracket you have to realize that spell hits like a truck

 

[The Saint]

80 twink if not a healer cant survive a FoJ without trinketing if a ret uses wings.

came to ask if this bracket had got better since MOP, thanks for the answer

 

[Sixpence]

My point exactly, the 84s are played by dumb 12 year old kids who stack pure dmg glass canon 84s, ye sure they might 1 shot u with a chaosbolt but the skill lvl of them is like playing against a backpeddling 1k rated scrub. Most ppl playing 80s are far more superior skill wise and brainwise lol, show me a good 84 twink and ill accept the fact that they are better. (Not talking about gear, cause lets face it gearing your twink is based on how much RNG luck and gold in your pocket you have)

Edit: P.S If your not smart enough to avoid a chaosbolt with w/E class you are, your quite dumb aswell seeing as if your in the twink bracket you have to realize that spell hits like a truck

Just because you haven't faced a competent 84(which is what the OP is talking about and very clearly specified so), does not mean they are inferior to a level 80.

84's are just better in any PVP environment. As far as not interrupting chaos bolt, you're trinketing the first shadow fury, what happens on the next one when your partner is in a blood fear? Don't be dumb.

 

[CatdogFx]

Just because you haven't faced a competent 84(which is what the OP is talking about and very clearly specified so), does not mean they are inferior to a level 80.

84's are just better in any PVP environment. As far as not interrupting chaos bolt, you're trinketing the first shadow fury, what happens on the next one when your partner is in a blood fear? Don't be dumb.

What im trying to say is after playing in this bracket for 2 years soon I have not faced a competent 84 twink, and please dont talk about tactics regarding my statement about chaosbolt intterupting whole thing is situatioal ofc, but your example was a prime example of a lock who thinks thats enough to kill ppl.

And ofc if a competent 84 twink would come along, yes i agree he would prob dominate the bracket, but as OP also stated he posted it as a warning to 80 twinks that how i understood it, may quit the bracket due to these twinks which i find highly unlikely due to the facts i just layed down.

Ofc if for example ppl I twinked with and other good ppl would go 84 the bracket would be basicly fucked (not bragging) just saying ppl who understand the whole twinking 80 pvp scenario

 

[Sixpence]

and please dont talk about tactics regarding my statement about chaosbolt intterupting whole thing is situatioal ofc, but your example was a prime example of a lock who thinks thats enough to kill ppl

I don't like talking about PVP "on paper" either, but a single Chaos Bolt certainly is enough to kill you. I was always under the impression that EU was more active in twink brackets, the fact that you haven't fought a single BiS 84 warlock yet is odd, to say the least. I really can't stress enough that a single Chaos Bolt is 100% of your HP bar.

Ofc if for example ppl I twinked with and other good ppl would go 84 the bracket would be basicly fucked (not bragging) just saying ppl who understand the whole twinking 80 pvp scenario

Yeah, you and your friends are the only good players at 80, sorry. Last expansion I 100% agree 80 was better except for blood DKs when vengeance was working in PVP. Now though, 84's have just gotten too far ahead in gear, it's you that doesn't understand the PVP scene anymore and you're stuck in your circlejerk of "everyone who plays an 84 is bad, therefore 84's are bad".

Most 84's are bad. Pro tip: Most 80's are bad, most of the playerbase is trash also. Just because you're yet to see a competent 84 this expansion in i420-i450 gear, does not mean they are a poor choice.

84 twinks, in full i420-i450 are so far beyond what any level 80 is capable of, Amaya is really just warning you. Sigh.

 

[CatdogFx]

Lets agree to disagree and that playerbase is bad

 

[Amaya]

BiS 84 Warlock Chaos Bolt should be hitting between 180k-190k.

Even with 50,000 HP and 70% resil you only have around 167k effective health.

Even if someone survives that, unless they have over 250k effective HP they're just going to die to Conflag Shadowburn a few seconds later. Shadowburn scales higher than Chaos Bolt as well, does 100k hits/200k crits. Conflagrate will be doing 40k+ hits.

So here is the low end situation.
180k Chaos Bolt
40k Conflagrate
If you have under 275k effective HP you are now under 20% HP
100k Shadowburn

320k damage in under 6 seconds, two of which are instant spells.


This is all WITHOUT buffs up. Fully buffed /w trinkets, procs, and Dark Soul you get to stupid amounts of damage.

Buffed /w trinkets, Dark Soul, and procs you get to 19,483 spellpower+ 80% crit+100% mastery+

That is 400,000 Chaos Bolt crits. Max effective HP in the bracket is <600,000. With PvP damage buff, CB can get over 500,000 damage.

Destruction CAN two shot ANYTHING in this bracket.

 

[glancealot]

not trying to steal your thunder but

regarding 80 vs 84. the only times when 80 is better than 84 is when you are a resil stacker

80's thread of 70s take Laoise back please

look at the date.

 

[Amaya]

And you were wrong. Under no circumstances is an 80 better than an 84 assuming BiS gear, professions, and equal skill.

The only potential exception could be for 80 Mages, Priests, FCs Healers, and Sacred Shield Paladins because resil drives up the value of heals and shields. Even then I don't know if matters that much.

 

[Jonqui]

I'm gonna put my input here as a warlock, I've dueled my 84 warlocks (won all), and I've killed many in bg's...

Yes 84's are superior to 80's if they both had BiS gear, and the same skill level.. it's obvious, the stats on the new MoP gear far surpass the amount of stats any of the cata or wotlk gear at 80 will give you, and many of the pieces stack higher than much of the cata epic gear at 85.
I have to agree with Catdog on one thing though.. You hardly ever see any good 84's in this bracket.. almost as if non exsistant.
84 warlocks are good yes, especially if geared right but where Amaya said that they have CB Conflag and SB the only spell that the warlock would prob get off is the conflag... and it ranges more around 20k-25k (with 70% res+).. (40k-50k base res)and would easily one shot many of the other "twinks" in the bracket.. most are ungeared scrubs with about 20k.

They'd only get off with about 1 spell is.. CB is easily countered or interrupted, the fact that it's a 2 sec+ cast... conflag is instant.
And both SB and CB cost burning embers, so if you do happen to get off a CB you can't cast SB due to lack of your embers.
If you can get a conflag off on a geared 80 with off heals or a res stack healer, it prob won't be able to do the job because their health won't be below 30% which is the only time SB can be cast.. and as you know any off healer in almost all the bracket can go fro 50% to 100% health whether it's a wog or a hot of some type.

I also have to say I don't think we'll be able to exclude melee classes, just about any class is still viable and believe will still be viable even when 84's do get big (if they ever do).. (if they do only about 1/16 of them will have any skill) Warriors have amazing burst damage that could drive an 84 with full MoP down to 0.. Due to the fact that most if not all 84's will only have their 40% base resilience, but this would also mean popping many if not all cd's.

And it'd be best not the mention the word *quit*.. we have a lack of players in this bracket as it is for pvp.. and I don't think just because 80 will be one shot is a real big deal for any of us that have been in this bracket.. we all know that it's all about burst.. Mages have ruled this bracket along with sub rogues all throughout cata.. they 1 shot or 2 shot.. but the thing is it's the same thing for them as well.. just about every single 80 in this bracket is a glass cannon.. it goes both ways..

This is a bit off topic too.. 80 stacking resilience such as a shaman or a druid can't be killed by an 84. I've seen 80 druids heal through about 3-4 geared 80's along with (not so geared 84's) and it's amazing, they'll go from like full to half to like 1k health and bounce back up, the hots are incredible.

We've still only been talking about warlocks idk why.. 84 mages are top or 84 hunters, burst and damage is stupid especially BM hunters (hopefully they nerf them over all)

I could probably write more but I have a feeling I'm going off topic with the thread title and purpose of this thread.
Yes thank you for the warning Amaya, 84's are superior if played right and geared right, but I think 80's still hold dominance in this bracket, for now as you said..

Call me out if I completely goofed on something.

 

[Amaya]

No, you sound pretty right for the most part. Only reason I continued discussing Warlocks is because I think they're the only spec/class that can literally one shot anything at 84. Hell, they might even have the highest direct damage in game.

Hunters are worse, the only 84s that have annoyed me are Blood DKs and hunters, but that is due mainly to lack of skill on the 84s part. 80s will continue dominate the bracket as long as 90%+ of the community prefers to play 80s and only bads and assholes go to 84.

That said a shift could occur at anytime. In all honesty in the games I've seen the top players have nearly always been 84s or 80 mages/death knights/spriests. There are skilled players active for all classes, but that's just what I've seen in general. Should good players move to 84 (some already are) and stay active the bracket is going to go the way of the 60s where 64s are flat out better as well.

The only hope I see is that 84's remain uncommon (doubtful) or that players do something to get MoP gear removed from 80-84 and we can go back to the days where 84s were obviously inferior and PvE wasn't a complete joke (see the EU 40m 25m Heroic ICC for example, only reason it took that long was because of RP and Gunship).

As it stands I think 85 is probably going to become a superior bracket for PvP purposes.