80 Hunter - Grace of the Herald vs. H DBW

Would you mind explaining why you fancy Careful Aim so much?

It provides 60% additionnal Crit Chance with Aimed Shot and Steady Shot on targets above 90% health.

You only get benefit when you open on a target with Aimed Shot. I almost always open with Chimera Shot, very rarely with Aimed Shot. It could be worth it to swap that loose point in Sick 'Em! to Careful Aim (since 2/2 would be a waste anyways, considering we run around with 70% crit). But yeah, it's not awesome.

P.S. What about Bombardement? I could see 20 Focus Multi Shots pomp a LOT of damage in BGs when horde is all stacked up (expecially with 80% mastery). I'll try it out, too.

Healers tend to keep targets at full hp in bgs and arenas. Even if you don't open with aimed, you let the healer heal your target, then hit them with the free, instant aimed from the master marksman talent. It's a good thing to have.

Bgs tend to be rather faceroll at this level, so I'm not so sure if bombardment is a great idea (survival loves the skill, marksmanship not so much).

As for the mastery vs crit thing. You have near-crit cap in full pve gear, so I'd advise going for more haste or mastery straight away, even considering dropping crit. I've seen mastery-stacked hunters kill fairly geared healers in a silencing shot during bgs, so it's perfectly viable. As for haste, I'd wager if you head further out from crit into both haste and mastery, you'd end up with more overall damage.

Shikaari, I wouldn't completely use that guy's armory as BiS. if you want PvE BiS, there's one in my sticky. Reasons for that are fairly simple. the 4set bonus is really nice for MM, and the halion trinket is terrible for hunters in general (Grace of the herald or DBW are far superior to it). Also, the ashen band isn't great either. I'd roll with the halion one (signet of twilight) in its place.
 
Healers tend to keep targets at full hp in bgs and arenas. Even if you don't open with aimed, you let the healer heal your target, then hit them with the free, instant aimed from the master marksman talent. It's a good thing to have.

Okay, I haven't started to do arenas so I couldn't really tell.
 
how exactly is oathbinder better than berto. why wouldnt you use bertos with 130 agi and have a bertos with pyrium weapon chain for those scenarios instead of an oathbinder with a titanium chain
even if youre strictly talking for wearing a chain, berto has more stam crit haste and hit for only 27 less agi
 
how exactly is oathbinder better than berto. why wouldnt you use bertos with 130 agi and have a bertos with pyrium weapon chain for those scenarios instead of an oathbinder with a titanium chain
even if youre strictly talking for wearing a chain, berto has more stam crit haste and hit for only 27 less agi

You cannot use a pyrium chain until 81. Oath binder is only better because of the usage of chain. If you didn't use one, bertos is far better.
 
You cannot use a pyrium chain until 81. Oath binder is only better because of the usage of chain. If you didn't use one, bertos is far better.

id only use 284 oathbinder if i already had one, and even then maybe not. bertos with a titanium chain will still have more mastery, haste, crit and stamina for only 27 less agi
comparison

What about Agility vs. Mastery?

agi should be loads better seeing what 1 agi provides vs 1 mastery rating, but i guess splosion is still working on the math
in the case of weapon chain weps tho, even if agi is better it would have to be better by farrr for oathbinders 27 agi to outweigh the ~50 more secondary stats (mastery/haste/crit) a bertos w/ titanium gives + the 50 additional stam
 
Did a quick test, 90 Mastery food vs. 90 Agility food

(Marksmanship spec, as survival agility would give superior bonus obviously)

90 Agility gave me:
+1.15% Crit chance
+209 Attack power (2631-3306 Ranged Damage ---*> 2674-3350 & Chimera Shot Bonus Damage 7974 --->8127)
+0.75% Dodge (Irrevelant to me)

90 Mastery Rating gave me:
+1.96 Mastery
+4% Chance to fire an additionnal arrow


We just need to do the math to see how revelant 209 Attack Power is
 
Did a quick test, 90 Mastery food vs. 90 Agility food

(Marksmanship spec, as survival agility would give superior bonus obviously)

90 Agility gave me:
+1.15% Crit chance
+209 Attack power (2631-3306 Ranged Damage ---*> 2674-3350 & Chimera Shot Bonus Damage 7974 --->8127)
+0.75% Dodge (Irrevelant to me)

90 Mastery Rating gave me:
+1.96 Mastery
+4% Chance to fire an additionnal arrow


We just need to do the math to see how revelant 209 Attack Power is

I'm working on it, it's just tricky given some of the available masteries.

Does the Marksmanship mastery work like the arms one? Or is it a hit that presumably scales with AP, but with no other skills (for example, the arms mastery is based off what procced it, it deals exactly the same damage, whereas the combat rogue mastery is a static attack, that only varies from AP.)
 
2/3 Pathing vs. 2/3 One with Nature? ---*> 152.4 AP vs. 2% Haste

figure out how much haste = 1%
then weigh that against 1ap
 
which spec bonus, BM? its 30% ap not 5% agi, no?
and you didnt factor in might which is 10% more ap...so it should be 66*1.05*2*1.1*1.3 for what lets call 200 ap. so if agi and haste are equal, 66 agi (or 200ap) would outweigh 2% haste (or 66 rating)
point for point agi should be stronger since 1 haste rating is a 33rd of a haste %, which is negligible at best vs 1 agi which, with kings might and bm spec, is 3 ap and a tiny amount of crit

if you ment surv spec you still get 10% agi so 66*1.05*1.1*2*1.1 for ~168ap. if ur mm with buffs its only ~153ap due to no spec bonus
 
He didn't specify a spec, and I do not remember hunter specs offhand. Every spec gets 2x 5%, as I speak of armor bonus.

1 agi would be lucky to equal 3 ap, based on that you have to get a 50% buff from somewhere. It'd be closer to 2.5. This is completely theoretical, as it is haste in the comparison , which would be equal to roughly 132 ap, non scaling.

I've got the secondary stat math incoming, and its rather interesting.
 
1% haste = 32.78999 rating. 2% = 65.57998 rating. Let's call it 66 rating. 66 haste rating = 66 agility, which gets both kings and spec bonus, which means 5% increase twice, so 66 * 1.05*1.05*2 (agi to AP conversion) and you have 144.6 AP.

So your conclusion is: 2% haste is valued as 144.6 AP which is inferior to 152.4, therefor One with Nature > Pathing.
And I forgot to specifie MM Spec which is +15% auto-shot damage. I don't think it change anything here.


Can't wait to see stats math!
 
He didn't specify a spec, and I do not remember hunter specs offhand. Every spec gets 2x 5%, as I speak of armor bonus.

ooooo, should have said armor bonus then imo. spec confused me, but not a big deal

1 agi would be lucky to equal 3 ap

1 agi.....then take mark, might and be BM thats 1*1.05*2*1.1*1.3 which is 3ap. as mm 1 agi is 2.4ap since theres no 30% ap buff or agi modifier (other than buffs and armor). as surv 1 agi is 2.67ap, which might get rounded up; idk

interested to see your initial math b/c itd be hard for a secondary to beat primary for class/specs with generous primary modifiers (f druids, bm/surv hunters, sub rogue, uh dk,). especially the agi based classes that gain ap dodge and crit from agi, whereas a secondary stat only increases that one area.
wouldnt be surprised if int doesnt hold a large advantage over 2ndarys. i mean, int does give sp, mana, crit and (ooc) regen...but 2ndary stats for casters have insane scaling&benefits, whereas mana should not be an issue and the crit int gives is tiny compared to the crit scaling.
 
From what I'm seeing at the moment, secondaries don't. It's a scaling issue mainly, because AP always provides the same amount (an increase of X to your dps, non-scaling). Secondaries however, are (spec permitting), get better with gear. a 1% crit increase (again, spec permitting) at 10k dps is 100 dps (1% crit is 1% uptime on 100% more damage, so 1% more damage overall). if the AP from the itemisation is worth less than 100 dps (possible), it becomes better to favour crit.

Attack power never really stops being good, it's more that the secondaries scale up, being multiplicative bonuses. Part of my original math was trying to work out if socket bonuses were worth it or not, and it kinda spiraled out of control from there (I have like...2 spreadsheets with craploads of formula in them). We're not quite a the level of attack power where secondary stats start to get silly-valuable (unholy dks and tanks in dps gear can reach this threshold, but nobody else can currently, and it's a very small gain even for those). Switching gems to all secondaries also fucks up the whole scaling, as when you swap, the primary stats instantly become more valuable again. The available itemlevel just isn't there. Perhaps if 80s were in 330/340 gear we'd reach it, but not in 277/300 gear. It's enough to push the balance towards sockets (14 str 10 haste being more valuable than 20 str for example, and this applies across the board)

Currently, I'm ignoring all defensive/regen-type mechanics. level 80s don't usually have regen problems, so that puts max mana and stuff at the side. Similarly, dodge or parry aren't useful in a PvE setting (which is mainly how I'm working), so they can be basically ignored.

As for crit from agi/int...well that's a little tricky. It does buff the strength of the stats, but from what I've seen only really affects the specs that love crit. It's a small dps increase that favors crit-y specs over others. But as we've already seen in this thread, some just have waaaay high crit already (I have made a subtlety chardev with 92.5% crit without procs), and secondaries (besides avoidances) don't diminish at all.

I'll get the math up over the weekend hopefully, I've got some time off to sit down and fix the last few things. Expect there to be a whole new thread detailing how the stats scale, and if I have time I'll add spec specific parts too, so you know where to look if you're confused about gemming.

As for the haste vs AP thing, unfortunately you can't exactly weight it quite the same (at least from these talents). Given that you didn't apply any of your math to the original 154.2 AP, it's more important to choose the unmodified figures, so we can see it more easily. In this case, the AP talent is just that bit stronger, at least for MM.
 

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