29 Rogue - Daggers or Swords?!

What you guys argue about is a whole other story.

Hitcapping in PvE means: none of your attack is ever going to miss. None. Whitehits included

Hitcapping in PvP means: none of your styles/skills or w/e you want to call them is ever going to miss. Missing a blind, gouge, CS or KS is deadly, even though most of it won't apply for 29s. So hitcapping for PvP =/= hitcapping for PvE

@Tidal: Yeah, it does. But in some cases you'd have to swap 20 AP for 1 hit for example. Hit is the most viable stat, but hitcapping does not necessarily mean you deal more DPS. All talking PvE here, but it applies for PvP aswell. There are just some situations where you have to chose to be 0,3% under the hitcap in order NOT to lose to much DPS. That's just because of how gear is designed.
 
I'm saying, dont sacrfice important stats for some hit. As it were, it is not common to miss alot as a lowbie.



Some hit cant hurt, but Blizz never intended for people to hit stack hit as a lowbie, or have to hit stack in pvp. Particularlly true for rogues.



During TBC, the hit cap was roughly in the area of 350. However, top raiding rogues only stacked hit to around 260 to 290 range, because the hit stacking, verses stacking agi was a loss past a certain point. It is good to hit, but not so much so that you hit like a feather.



During Wrath, the hit cap is around 700. However, most rogues only go to around 300 some hit - enough for their poisons and most special moves.
 
ok



HE IS TALKING ABOUT HIT CAPPING MAINHAND/SPECIAL ATTACKS FOR PVP



NOT HIT CAPPING BOTH WEAPONS IN PVE



THEY ARE NOT EVEN REMOTELY RELATED



DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW, OR DO YOU NEED A PRETTY VENN DIAGRAM OR PIE CHART?
 
In PVE, Mobs are certain level higher than you - so some classes are hit capped. For example, on my Hunter at 70 raiding I got the Hit cap very easily, It was 144 or something. But! my 70 rogue friend, was about half the hitcap that rogues needed, as this was stupidly high due the Duelwield.



I appreciate there's a certain point at which it's madness, But IF im relying on doing mainly sword damage, Im not talking about hitting bosses in PVE in which they're a higher level than me, the highest person I fight is going to be my level. So do I NEED the hit cap, or is it maybe 3% that determines if i'll hit a level 29 (My level)
 
JimOw said:
I appreciate there's a certain point at which it's madness, But IF im relying on doing mainly sword damage, Im not talking about hitting bosses in PVE in which they're a higher level than me, the highest person I fight is going to be my level. So do I NEED the hit cap, or is it maybe 3% that determines if i'll hit a level 29 (My level)
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Most forums/discussions on it have concluded that hit cap in pvp is 5% for all abilities for melee and ranged classes, and 4% for casters. Being .3% off in return so you don't sacrafice something much more inclusive to damage isn't as bad as people seem to portray here, especially in lower brackets. It is true that a sacrifice like that at higher levels is probably not an intelligent decision, but I would tend to agree that blizzard never meant for people to hit stack in lower brackets.
 
Thanks :)



Okay, so the Enchant on Gloves and Boots, 20 hit rating in total is all I really need, 0.3 is nothing. So now, I need a spec! I intent to do very little Stealthy Tricks, I can only just fish in WoW, let alone ambush and backstab ;)
 
ok serious post.



if you wanna do "stealthy tricks", i suggest going Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. basically you're going to be running a bleed spec, which is about as "stealthy" as it gets at 29, lol. you'll do your damage by garroting and rupturing your opponents and kiting them/restealthing.



glyphed ghostly strike is really funny at 29. a lot of people don't focus on the fact that you can hit 100% dodge with evasion up at 29 with ghostly strike. that's pretty big. "the ghost", as i like to call it, is extremely good when you're forced to fight a warrior, ret pally, or rogue toe-to-toe.



open on a hunter, dismantling immediately so he cant disengage, get bleeds up, and then vanish the disengage before he can get a serpent sting up on you. he will be crippling snared with bleeds up, you'll be moving quickly with the vanish glyph. you re-open, evasion/ghostly strike if you want to, and finish him off. you can virtually 100-0 a hunter at 29 this way.



anyways, got sidetracked. go a bleed/ghostly strike spec at 29 if you wanna do "stealthy shit".



edit: make sure to get the improved stealth enchant to cloak as well.
 
Thanks for the over reaction Lloydganks.



Anyways, good info all about.
 
Lloydganks said:
ok serious post.



if you wanna do "stealthy tricks", i suggest going Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. basically you're going to be running a bleed spec, which is about as "stealthy" as it gets at 29, lol. you'll do your damage by garroting and rupturing your opponents and kiting them/restealthing.



glyphed ghostly strike is really funny at 29. a lot of people don't focus on the fact that you can hit 100% dodge with evasion up at 29 with ghostly strike. that's pretty big. "the ghost", as i like to call it, is extremely good when you're forced to fight a warrior, ret pally, or rogue toe-to-toe.



open on a hunter, dismantling immediately so he cant disengage, get bleeds up, and then vanish the disengage before he can get a serpent sting up on you. he will be crippling snared with bleeds up, you'll be moving quickly with the vanish glyph. you re-open, evasion/ghostly strike if you want to, and finish him off. you can virtually 100-0 a hunter at 29 this way.



anyways, got sidetracked. go a bleed/ghostly strike spec at 29 if you wanna do "stealthy shit".



edit: make sure to get the improved stealth enchant to cloak as well.
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I meant little stealthy tricks, as In mainly I want to be out using my swords. I really don't have the latency to be messing around trying to ambush people and backstab. but GhostlyStrike is nice, Yep. But I was thinking more like Improved Eviscerate and Sinister Strike?
 
well....i mean, do you want to be doing "stealthy tricks" or do you wanna just go 20 combat with swords and go back to basics and sinister strike/eviscerate people over and over?



i personally never had any issues with my lag when i was bleed/ghostly strike specced. but i can definitely tell you that going 20 combat on a 29 rogue is pretty damn easy/straightforward, so you might wanna try that for a while to get some practice in.



i'd suggest something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. with a 2m cd on sprint + imp sprint + sprint glyph, you should have an easier time with hunters. pretty much all you need to do is make a riposte/ss macro, mash it, occasionally gouge or kick, and sprint a lot.
 
Ahh right, Sorry I didn't realise them first points in Sub aided the bleed effects. Thanks for the input :) so basically I'de be going for big openers with daggers, then swapping to Swords and using Garrote and what not. Thanks!
 
JimOw said:
Ahh right, Sorry I didn't realise them first points in Sub aided the bleed effects. Thanks for the input :) so basically I'de be going for big openers with daggers, then swapping to Swords and using Garrote and what not. Thanks!
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Garrote can only be used while stealthed and behind the target. The spec he is suggesting is a bleed kiting spec which involves constantly restealthing and generally playing like an arse. It's very annoying for others, but fun and will get people really po'd at you. Rupture is the bleed ability based on combo points you can use in combat.



Edit: LOLOL BLADE FLURRY AT 29! Too bad it's not possible :(
 
you can't get blade flurry at 29, dawg. did i post the wrong spec? i might have accidentally put an extra talent point in there or something.
 
Lloydganks said:
you can't get blade flurry at 29, dawg. did i post the wrong spec? i might have accidentally put an extra talent point in there or something.
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Lol oh my bad, I was tired as shit when I posted that rofl. I went to take a nap and came back and realized I made a mistake I was looking at the 3 points in MoD and thinking man 1 in Blade Flurry would be sick.
 
lloyd, I've got a few questions...as I'm going trying to decide what I want to do, as well. And because I see that you've tried multiple spec's and aren't retarded, I'm hoping you provide some good insight. I'm currently an untwinked 28 rogue. I'm basically BGing to get my AB/WSG gear, and then hitting 29 and finishing the job.



So far, backstab spec has been pretty lackluster to me. This could be for one of 4 reasons--I don't like the spec, I'm not high enough level/well-geared enough for it to reach efficiency, I've spec'ed or I'm playing the spec incorrectly. I come from having played a 39 hemo rogue which is much different, and might be shadowing my experience.



Right now...I'm CSing into a backstab, as opposed to ambushing. I hear a bunch of people saying they always open with ambush...but with a ~20% crit, it doesn't seem that efficient. I'm also only critting backstabs for 300-340. I know this number will go up when I finish gearing...and would go up if I spec'ed into lethality, which I'm not currently. But I can't see it going much higher than 450 or so. And with that, an ambush/crit BS will only take away 1/2 of any decent twink's health--leaving me pretty flacid and out of energy.



I'm thinking that swords might be more of my style considering that's my experience at 39. And I really like your bleed build. I'm just curious what I should expect when changing. Better 1v1 capability (including arena), it would seem. More flexible use of energy, I would think. But how much less effective will I be in WSG/AB? Overall, which would you choose?



Edit: also, why not 2/2 imp. SS, as opposed to 2/3 serrated blades?
 
nosoup4crr said:
lloyd, I've got a few questions...as I'm going trying to decide what I want to do, as well. And because I see that you've tried multiple spec's and aren't retarded, I'm hoping you provide some good insight. I'm currently an untwinked 28 rogue. I'm basically BGing to get my AB/WSG gear, and then hitting 29 and finishing the job.



So far, backstab spec has been pretty lackluster to me. This could be for one of 4 reasons--I don't like the spec, I'm not high enough level/well-geared enough for it to reach efficiency, I've spec'ed or I'm playing the spec incorrectly. I come from having played a 39 hemo rogue which is much different, and might be shadowing my experience.



Right now...I'm CSing into a backstab, as opposed to ambushing. I hear a bunch of people saying they always open with ambush...but with a ~20% crit, it doesn't seem that efficient. I'm also only critting backstabs for 300-340. I know this number will go up when I finish gearing...and would go up if I spec'ed into lethality, which I'm not currently. But I can't see it going much higher than 450 or so. And with that, an ambush/crit BS will only take away 1/2 of any decent twink's health--leaving me pretty flacid and out of energy.



I'm thinking that swords might be more of my style considering that's my experience at 39. And I really like your bleed build. I'm just curious what I should expect when changing. Better 1v1 capability (including arena), it would seem. More flexible use of energy, I would think. But how much less effective will I be in WSG/AB? Overall, which would you choose?



Edit: also, why not 2/2 imp. SS, as opposed to 2/3 serrated blades?
Click to expand...



daggers are just bad at 29 when you're going up against other twinks. daggers are great for pugging bgs and killing lowbies fast, but not really much else. good in some arena setups, too. and people "opening with ambush" and switching to swords is news to me, too.....opening with ambush on anyone but a lowbie at 29 makes no sense at all unless you're fully specced for ambush. don't listen to that.



speccing for bleeds is one legit way to play at 29. you will be very strong in 1v1s, and it's alright in arena depending on the team you're with/against. and yes, it's a lot more flexible. but just going straight combat with something like the 0/17/3 spec i posted is also pretty flexible. you can go either way.



i get serrated blades instead of imp ss because imp ss is a pretty mediocre talent now for pvp. ever since energy regen was changed from ticks to continuous regen, that talent really doesn't mean much because you won't have to wait for an extra tick sometimes to ss. i'd rather have 20% more damage on my rupture (that scales on top of blood spatter, i believe). your bleeds will seriously do a ton of damage at 29.
 
Lloydganks said:
daggers are just bad at 29 when you're going up against other twinks. daggers are great for pugging bgs and killing lowbies fast, but not really much else. good in some arena setups, too. and people "opening with ambush" and switching to swords is news to me, too.....opening with ambush on anyone but a lowbie at 29 makes no sense at all unless you're fully specced for ambush. don't listen to that.



speccing for bleeds is one legit way to play at 29. you will be very strong in 1v1s, and it's alright in arena depending on the team you're with/against. and yes, it's a lot more flexible. but just going straight combat with something like the 0/17/3 spec i posted is also pretty flexible. you can go either way.



i get serrated blades instead of imp ss because imp ss is a pretty mediocre talent now for pvp. ever since energy regen was changed from ticks to continuous regen, that talent really doesn't mean much because you won't have to wait for an extra tick sometimes to ss. i'd rather have 20% more damage on my rupture (that scales on top of blood spatter, i believe). your bleeds will seriously do a ton of damage at 29.
Click to expand...



I plan on doing arena with a balance druid, combined with the druids pretty big crits, I think a bleed spec would be best, as I dont want to blow all my CD's to keep doing contant damage.



And about swapping to swords, After playing 19 forever and seeing it done alot, I presumed it was done at 29 ;)
 
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