29 dagger rogue ideal dps spec
- Thread starter summa
- Start date
summa
OG
i ended up posting the math on the cyclone forums, so ill copy it here -
ok so for the sake of calculation i used my 29 rogue
[char=Magtheridon]Stunlockd[/char]
he has 388 ap and 22.35 crit (without malice, numbers in thgis calculation will assume he has malice).
the numbers actually arent perfectly specific to my rogue because i assumed he had 5% base hit which most rogues do(with hit to gloves and boas or w/e), but it really doesnt matter.
anyways, obviously:
total dps = white dps + special dps = mhdps + oh dps + special dps
for the sake of this calculation i assume all energy is being devoted to backstab, which is unrealistic, but just go with it (assuming energy is spent on other things would only favor 8/8/4 more).
an important note for offhand dps is that it only deals 50% damage (if you dont believe me check your character sheet stats).
here is the template for calculating each dps number
mh dps = ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate) + ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(crit rate)
oh dps = ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(offhand penalty) + ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(crit rate)*(offhand penalty)
the offhand penalty refers to that 50% damage reduction due to offhand damage, which is instead 75% damage reduction with 5/5 dual wield spec. (5/5 dw spec gives 50% more offhand damage, so .5* .5 = .25 more damage... thats why its 75% with 5/5 dw as opposed to 100).
special dps = (backstab damage) * (backstabs per second)
energy is generated 10 per second, so 600 per minute, so backstabs per second is 1/10. i ignore 100 starting energy and vigor because the benefit of these depends on how long a time frame you are dealing with, and as the time frame grows longer their benefit shrinks, converging to 0.
backstab damage = ((1.8* wep dmg) + 69)*(special hit rate) + ((1.8* wep dmg) + 69)*(special hit rate) * (backstab crit rate) * (crit modifier).
the crit modifier is just the difference made by leath, so its 1.3 with leath, 1 without. (its not included in the white damage templates because its just 1).
im not going to go into weapon damage because i feel thats been beaten to death enough in other threads, but again, if anyone wants to see it calculated, say so and ill post it later.
also note that white attacks have a base 24% miss rate on same level enemies, while specials have only a 5% miss rate on same level enemies.
so here is the dps calculation for each of the specs:
16/0/4
mh dps = ((25.6) + (27.7))* (.81) + ((25.6) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.2735) = 43.173 + 11.8 = 54.98
oh dps = ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.5) + ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.5)*(.2735) = 18.9945 + 5.194996 = 24.19
special dps =(.1)* (((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1.3)) = (.1)*(232.8 + 173.564) = 40.6364
so total dps = 54.98 + 24.19 + 40.6364 = 119.8
8/8/4
mh dps = ((25.6) + (27.7))* (.84) + ((25.6) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.2735) = 44.772 + 12.245 = 57.02
oh dps = (19.2) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.75) + ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.75)*(.2735) = 29.547 + 8.081 = 37.63
special dps = (.1)* (((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1)) = (.1)*(232.8 + 133.511) = 36.631
so total dps = 57.02 + 37.63 + 36.631 = 131.28
% difference = (131.28 - 119.8) / ((131.28+119.8)/2) = 11.481/125.54 = 9.15%
so it isnt quite 10% like i guessed before, but things like offhanding TP with 8/8/4 and the fact that not all energy goes toward backstabs would make it a much greater difference than 10% i think.
so yeah, please post any questions you have about the math i posted here.
ok so for the sake of calculation i used my 29 rogue
[char=Magtheridon]Stunlockd[/char]
he has 388 ap and 22.35 crit (without malice, numbers in thgis calculation will assume he has malice).
the numbers actually arent perfectly specific to my rogue because i assumed he had 5% base hit which most rogues do(with hit to gloves and boas or w/e), but it really doesnt matter.
anyways, obviously:
total dps = white dps + special dps = mhdps + oh dps + special dps
for the sake of this calculation i assume all energy is being devoted to backstab, which is unrealistic, but just go with it (assuming energy is spent on other things would only favor 8/8/4 more).
an important note for offhand dps is that it only deals 50% damage (if you dont believe me check your character sheet stats).
here is the template for calculating each dps number
mh dps = ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate) + ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(crit rate)
oh dps = ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(offhand penalty) + ((weapon dps) + (dps from ap))*(hit rate)*(crit rate)*(offhand penalty)
the offhand penalty refers to that 50% damage reduction due to offhand damage, which is instead 75% damage reduction with 5/5 dual wield spec. (5/5 dw spec gives 50% more offhand damage, so .5* .5 = .25 more damage... thats why its 75% with 5/5 dw as opposed to 100).
special dps = (backstab damage) * (backstabs per second)
energy is generated 10 per second, so 600 per minute, so backstabs per second is 1/10. i ignore 100 starting energy and vigor because the benefit of these depends on how long a time frame you are dealing with, and as the time frame grows longer their benefit shrinks, converging to 0.
backstab damage = ((1.8* wep dmg) + 69)*(special hit rate) + ((1.8* wep dmg) + 69)*(special hit rate) * (backstab crit rate) * (crit modifier).
the crit modifier is just the difference made by leath, so its 1.3 with leath, 1 without. (its not included in the white damage templates because its just 1).
im not going to go into weapon damage because i feel thats been beaten to death enough in other threads, but again, if anyone wants to see it calculated, say so and ill post it later.
also note that white attacks have a base 24% miss rate on same level enemies, while specials have only a 5% miss rate on same level enemies.
so here is the dps calculation for each of the specs:
16/0/4
mh dps = ((25.6) + (27.7))* (.81) + ((25.6) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.2735) = 43.173 + 11.8 = 54.98
oh dps = ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.5) + ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.81)*(.5)*(.2735) = 18.9945 + 5.194996 = 24.19
special dps =(.1)* (((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1.3)) = (.1)*(232.8 + 173.564) = 40.6364
so total dps = 54.98 + 24.19 + 40.6364 = 119.8
8/8/4
mh dps = ((25.6) + (27.7))* (.84) + ((25.6) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.2735) = 44.772 + 12.245 = 57.02
oh dps = (19.2) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.75) + ((19.2) + (27.7))*(.84)*(.75)*(.2735) = 29.547 + 8.081 = 37.63
special dps = (.1)* (((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1)) = (.1)*(232.8 + 133.511) = 36.631
so total dps = 57.02 + 37.63 + 36.631 = 131.28
% difference = (131.28 - 119.8) / ((131.28+119.8)/2) = 11.481/125.54 = 9.15%
so it isnt quite 10% like i guessed before, but things like offhanding TP with 8/8/4 and the fact that not all energy goes toward backstabs would make it a much greater difference than 10% i think.
so yeah, please post any questions you have about the math i posted here.
summa
OG
ps. im ignoring kazins posts because the things he says are stupid enough to make my head hurt, so if anyone actually thinks hes right and im wrong in something he posted, please post in your own words w/e point he brought up so i can try to clarify it for you. i make these kinds of posts to help people learn more about class/game mechanics, and people like him that refuse to accept that they can learn anything are a waste of my time and i wont argue with them. again however, people that are willing to try to understand what im saying , if you have questions, or think im wrong (even if you agree with kazin for some reason), post your questions so i can try to resolve them for you.
Conrose
OG
I'm gonna do my own quick calculations.
(((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1.3)) =
((163.8 + 69) * (1) + (163.8 + 69) * (1) * (.5735) * (1.3)) =
(232.8 * (1) + 232.8 * (1) * (.5735) * (1.3)) =
(232.8 + 173.56404) = 406.36404
406.36404 is the amount of damage of your average Lethality Backstab based on your math.
You start out at 110 Energy for the sake of Arguing Burst.
110 - 60 + 10 = 60
60 - 60 + 10 = 10
(Thistle Tea GCD) 10 + 100 + 10 = 110 (Energy Capped)
110 - 60 + 10 = 60
60 - 60 + 10 = 10
That's 4 Backstabs over the course of 5 seconds... 1625.45616
Using your results for 16/0/4, your white damage would be as follows:
((54.98 + 24.19) * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
(79.17 * 5) = White Damge over 5 seconds
395.85 = White Damage over 5 Seconds
395.85 + 1625.45616 = Total Average Damage over 5 second Burst
2021.30616 = Total Average Damage over a 5 second Burst
For 8/8/4
(232.8 * (1) + 232.8 * (1) * (.5735) * (1.0)) =
232.8 + 133.5108 = 366.3108.
366.3108 * 4 = 1465.2432
((57.02 + 37.63) * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
(94.65 * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
473.25 = White Damage over 5 seconds.
1465.2432 + 473.25 = Total Average Damage done over 5 seconds
1938.4932 = Total Average Damage done over a 5 second burst
Then again... of course... your build doesn't include Vigor
(((1.8*91) + 69)*(1) + ((1.8*91) + 69)*(1)*(.5735)*(1.3)) =
((163.8 + 69) * (1) + (163.8 + 69) * (1) * (.5735) * (1.3)) =
(232.8 * (1) + 232.8 * (1) * (.5735) * (1.3)) =
(232.8 + 173.56404) = 406.36404
406.36404 is the amount of damage of your average Lethality Backstab based on your math.
You start out at 110 Energy for the sake of Arguing Burst.
110 - 60 + 10 = 60
60 - 60 + 10 = 10
(Thistle Tea GCD) 10 + 100 + 10 = 110 (Energy Capped)
110 - 60 + 10 = 60
60 - 60 + 10 = 10
That's 4 Backstabs over the course of 5 seconds... 1625.45616
Using your results for 16/0/4, your white damage would be as follows:
((54.98 + 24.19) * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
(79.17 * 5) = White Damge over 5 seconds
395.85 = White Damage over 5 Seconds
395.85 + 1625.45616 = Total Average Damage over 5 second Burst
2021.30616 = Total Average Damage over a 5 second Burst
For 8/8/4
(232.8 * (1) + 232.8 * (1) * (.5735) * (1.0)) =
232.8 + 133.5108 = 366.3108.
366.3108 * 4 = 1465.2432
((57.02 + 37.63) * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
(94.65 * 5) = White Damage over 5 seconds
473.25 = White Damage over 5 seconds.
1465.2432 + 473.25 = Total Average Damage done over 5 seconds
1938.4932 = Total Average Damage done over a 5 second burst
Then again... of course... your build doesn't include Vigor
Bansil
OG
kazin is a little bit...let's say "offensive" in almost every post.
that does not mean, that he is wrong with everything he has to add to the discussion.
if you ignore the 100 starting energy AND vigor, you ignore the strength of the entire spec. dealing a huge amount of dmg in the first 5-10 seconds of a fight is exactly what this build is focused on. ignoring at least the first 3 seconds is not a good way to discuss the pros'n'cons of 2 different builds.
after a few seconds the first big heals will arrive at your target and as a burst-machine you want to deal as much dmg as possible before this happens. add the dmg of a second dps class and the FC will be dead.
in every bracket there is one spec that is a little bit superior to any other. it will allow to do to one special thing. in 39 sub is the way to go, cause you can add a huge amount of control to the fight and make use of shorter CDs. besides this hemo is very energy efficient. in 29 the rogue tops every burst. this does not intend, that they are not capable of a high flat dps, but that is not what makes them different to others.
you can either make use of this high burst or not, but ~11,5 dps in the seconds of a fight almost every class/team will try to get the control of the fight is not what makes this spec superior in general. you will be feared away, stunned, rooted...or anything else. you have a limited timeframe to deal as much dmg as possible. after that your acting will be influenced by the strategy of your target/targets team.
i think what kazin was intended to say is, that a fight is not done on paper or with a calculator...
i had done the math to compare the 39 2Hers bonebiter and LoA. bonebiter wins, but the circumstances that benefit the BB are not given in every case, so it is a BB=LoA overall.
that does not mean, that he is wrong with everything he has to add to the discussion.
if you ignore the 100 starting energy AND vigor, you ignore the strength of the entire spec. dealing a huge amount of dmg in the first 5-10 seconds of a fight is exactly what this build is focused on. ignoring at least the first 3 seconds is not a good way to discuss the pros'n'cons of 2 different builds.
after a few seconds the first big heals will arrive at your target and as a burst-machine you want to deal as much dmg as possible before this happens. add the dmg of a second dps class and the FC will be dead.
in every bracket there is one spec that is a little bit superior to any other. it will allow to do to one special thing. in 39 sub is the way to go, cause you can add a huge amount of control to the fight and make use of shorter CDs. besides this hemo is very energy efficient. in 29 the rogue tops every burst. this does not intend, that they are not capable of a high flat dps, but that is not what makes them different to others.
you can either make use of this high burst or not, but ~11,5 dps in the seconds of a fight almost every class/team will try to get the control of the fight is not what makes this spec superior in general. you will be feared away, stunned, rooted...or anything else. you have a limited timeframe to deal as much dmg as possible. after that your acting will be influenced by the strategy of your target/targets team.
i think what kazin was intended to say is, that a fight is not done on paper or with a calculator...
i had done the math to compare the 39 2Hers bonebiter and LoA. bonebiter wins, but the circumstances that benefit the BB are not given in every case, so it is a BB=LoA overall.
Lloydganks
OG
well put actually, bansil
Pållynåtor
OG
summa said:
No.
Burst will win you duels way more than sustained. You may do 10% better over time, but not per hit. At 29s, you need to maximize the dagger hits because a good opponent will hardly let you behind them.
Pållynåtor
OG
summa said:
They aren't all ambushed spec because:
Backstab Glyph during cheap shot-20% damage, and they can't move.
You'll be LUCKY to get two ambushes
Sustained dps<Burst::
I play a healadin. If a rogue can't kill me before I successfully dispel mind numbing+crip and get away, i'll easily heal up. The 10% sustained won't kill me, I guarantee it.
I'd give up the hit, because with the hr chant, you will be specials capped. Sometimes the offensive bonus is better than wasting talents/stats for hit cap with whites. (See end-game rogues)
Pållynåtor
OG
Kazin said:
Summa casts disengage.
Summa casts Shadowmeld.
Pållynåtor
OG
./end late chain response posts
Kazin can you chat with me on vent for a few per chance? Have a couple questions, or if you have IM/MSN or something.
Kazin can you chat with me on vent for a few per chance? Have a couple questions, or if you have IM/MSN or something.
Kazin
OG
Pållynåtor said:
I'll be on skywall most of the day since I'm off work today. Most likely uddertastic on horde. Toss me a pst.
Also, for anyone who still isnt convinced, the math is skewed even more towards 16/0/4 since 8/8/4 relies heavily on white dmg, and white hits can be dodged/parried/blocked. Thats not even factoring in backstab glyph, which skews it even more towards the good spec.