29 dagger rogue ideal dps spec

[summa]

think its 16/0/4? well you are wrong. i just finished the math, and 8/8/4 is actually a significantly better spec for dps (the 8 combat being dual wield spec and precision). yes, dual wield spec. one more time, dual wield spec. and before someone says "precision does nothing if you have hit to gloves", ill inform you that the hit rating has a soft cap at 5%, where specials no longer miss, however white attacks have a base 24% chance to miss against same level targets, so hit rating still improves white dps til that cap.



i do have math to support this conclusion, but based on the response (or lack thereof) to my last math related post, im not going to waste the time posting it here. if someone wants to see the math, i can post it, but please dont bother asking me to post it because you want to throw some nerd rage fit because i can prove that the cookie cutter dagger build isnt good for overall damage.



i havent played around with the numbers much, but its also probably true that you should be off handing torturing poker with this spec, but again, i dont know that part for sure yet.



8/8/4 worked out to be 12 dps better than 16/0/4, which may not sound like a lot, but thats right around 10% better, which i think is a lot.



and once more, i know people hate hearing that cookie cutter builds arent good, and i honestly dont care. dont bother getting angry at me because i can show the spec that the best rogue on your bg or all the best rogues on your bg use isnt good, i really dont care if the best rogues on your bg spec wrong. so for the last time, please dont post stupid comments saying that im wrong unless you have some really good mathematical justification to support your position.

 

[Deva]

IMO - dagger spec is for high burst - instagibbing flag carriers, healers, b4 day can actually react - not for constant DPS. And 16/0/4 is an ideal spec for this.



And this is not a stupid comment, this is my opinion.

You will never be hid capped on your oh, high hit is only needed in raid conditions, especially for combat potency. Being 5% hit capped always worked fine for me, as in most situations you rely only on backstab/sinister HITS, and OH dmg is not very impressive, especially with vendetta equipped.



And BTW OH torturing poker? What is the purpose of this?

 

[Bansil]

And BTW OH torturing poker? What is the purpose of this?

if DW specced, a high dps OH is viable.

ok, but gettin hit over the cap can not be viable. 1% more white dmg is not worth itemization or spending talentpts. (i don't want to believe it)

too bad i have no recount charts to do the math.

 

[summa]

if DW specced, a high dps OH is viable.

ok, but gettin hit over the cap can not be viable. 1% more white dmg is not worth itemization or spending talentpts. (i don't want to believe it)

too bad i have no recount charts to do the math.

this is pretty much the exact post i said i didnt want, so im ignoring it. the explanation of why id use oh TP is right tho.



to the burst argument, one can always argue for burst damage having greater value than sustained damage... but to what extent? leathality causes my average backstab to do 34 more damage to a 0 armor target (less difference on a target with armor). the different spec however makes up a 10% damage difference, which is a really big improvement. so unfortunately it is left up to opinion, but i dont see how someone could choose burst over sustained in this case, the tradeoff is just awful.

 

[Kazin]

You're obv missing the point of going daggers. If you want high sustained dps, roll swords (or a hunter) If you want burst you roll daggers.



Burst is hard to heal through, while sustained dps is not. Burst kills FC's, sustained dps does not.



I dont need to do more dmg over time when I cheapshot, backstab, thistle tea, backstab backstab. Still alive? Eat a grenade or a sapper.



There's a reason the cookie cutter is the cookie cutter.

 

[summa]

You're obv missing the point of going daggers. If you want high sustained dps, roll swords (or a hunter) If you want burst you roll daggers.



Burst is hard to heal through, while sustained dps is not. Burst kills FC's, sustained dps does not.



I dont need to do more dmg over time when I cheapshot, backstab, thistle tea, backstab backstab. Still alive? Eat a grenade or a sapper.



There's a reason the cookie cutter is the cookie cutter.

its retarded posts like this that make me regret sharing this kind of information with people.

 

[Fìalotta]

I understand u summa the substain dmg specc(8/8/4) your useing works gr8 whit double tp but i can also say ppl use 16/0/4 coz they cant get double tps anymore

 

[Lloydganks]

i dunno, i pretty much agree with kazin. like i said before, summa, the whole point of going daggers at 29 is for the massive burst. a dagger rogue can get kited/cc'ed an entire arena and do absolutely nothing, but then make it to a target in a HoJ and do their 2 600 backstabs and a couple white hits and drop somebody.



and if you're doing pug battlegrounds, you pretty much have to drop people fast before you get swarmed by 100000 hunters. the sustained damage really doesn't matter. and i'd just go swords anyway if i wanted a well-rounded build.



so i can't see many situations where you would actually want to rock a 8/8/4 spec, but i am sure they're out there. random duels maybe? lol, you can spec a lot of funny stuff for duels at 29 as a rogue.

 

[Mangone]

its retarded posts like this that make me regret sharing this kind of information with people.

Summa, your post is entitled 29 Dagger ideal spec. If you don't want to hear what the best dagger spec is then don't ask.

Kazin is the best on these forums when it comes to rogue knowledge. If you want the best spec then listen to him. Don't be an ignorant stuck up prick.



A rogue with daggers building a spec for non burst damage is just going to be an easy target. You won't help your team at all.

 

[Conrose]

think its 16/0/4? well you are wrong. i just finished the math, and 8/8/4 is actually a significantly better spec for dps (the 8 combat being dual wield spec and precision). yes, dual wield spec. one more time, dual wield spec. and before someone says "precision does nothing if you have hit to gloves", ill inform you that the hit rating has a soft cap at 5%, where specials no longer miss, however white attacks have a base 24% chance to miss against same level targets, so hit rating still improves white dps til that cap.



i do have math to support this conclusion, but based on the response (or lack thereof) to my last math related post, im not going to waste the time posting it here. if someone wants to see the math, i can post it, but please dont bother asking me to post it because you want to throw some nerd rage fit because i can prove that the cookie cutter dagger build isnt good for overall damage.



i havent played around with the numbers much, but its also probably true that you should be off handing torturing poker with this spec, but again, i dont know that part for sure yet.



8/8/4 worked out to be 12 dps better than 16/0/4, which may not sound like a lot, but thats right around 10% better, which i think is a lot.



and once more, i know people hate hearing that cookie cutter builds arent good, and i honestly dont care. dont bother getting angry at me because i can show the spec that the best rogue on your bg or all the best rogues on your bg use isnt good, i really dont care if the best rogues on your bg spec wrong. so for the last time, please dont post stupid comments saying that im wrong unless you have some really good mathematical justification to support your position.

At 8/8/4, how much damage can you do in 3 seconds vs how much 16/0/4 can do in 2?

 

[summa]

ok, ive answered the argument about losing burst already in the thread, so seeing nothing other than nerd rage posts about how im wrong despite 0 mathematical evidence, i dont think i have anything else to respond to.

 

[Druiddroid]

so, can we conclude that 8/8/4 is better long term, while 16/0/4 is better for burst?



if you want to take out someone quickly, such as a debuffed FC, 16/0/4 is better. if you're trying to take out a high health FC without the debuff though, you might want more sustained DPS.



edit: i don't see much, if any nerd rage in this thread.

 

[summa]

so, can we conclude that 8/8/4 is better long term, while 16/0/4 is better for burst?



if you want to take out someone quickly, such as a debuffed FC, 16/0/4 is better. if you're trying to take out a high health FC without the debuff though, you might want more sustained DPS.



edit: i don't see much, if any nerd rage in this thread.

well, i guess what you said is true, about one spec being better than the other in certain situations. the problem is that people cant respec for w/e situation they find themselves in. so it becomes a question of which spec is better overall, and as i said already (might have been in another thread tho?) leath increases the average backstab by 34, 8/8/4 increases overall dps by 10%. the decision of which to go with is purely subjective, but id take the 10% damage over an insignificant amount of damage on my backstabs, seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Druiddroid]

well, i guess what you said is true, about one spec being better than the other in certain situations. the problem is that people cant respec for w/e situation they find themselves in. so it becomes a question of which spec is better overall, and as i said already (might have been in another thread tho?) leath increases the average backstab by 34, 8/8/4 increases overall dps by 10%. the decision of which to go with is purely subjective, but id take the 10% damage over an insignificant amount of damage on my backstabs, seems pretty clear to me.

certainly that 15-25 extra damage backstab will do (considering armor) isn't a whole lot, and in most situations 8/8/4 would be better. for many people though, the point of a 16/0/4 spec is to kill people within a matter of seconds.



what would be best for sustained DPS, 8/8/4 daggers, or the 'best' swords spec? i don't know much about rogues, but i would think the swords spec would come out to be better sustained DPS.



so by that logic, 8/8/4 daggers is probably the best spec for a cookie cutter, 16/0/4 daggers is best for burst, and swords is best for sustained DPS.



to each their own then. it's purely subjective which is best.

 

[summa]

certainly that 15-25 extra damage backstab will do (considering armor) isn't a whole lot, and in most situations 8/8/4 would be better. for many people though, the point of a 16/0/4 spec is to kill people within a matter of seconds.



what would be best for sustained DPS, 8/8/4 daggers, or the 'best' swords spec? i don't know much about rogues, but i would think the swords spec would come out to be better sustained DPS.



so by that logic, 8/8/4 daggers is probably the best spec for a cookie cutter, 16/0/4 daggers is best for burst, and swords is best for sustained DPS.



to each their own then. it's purely subjective which is best.

well first of all, i dont think swords will be anywhere near daggers in sustained dps, partly because torturing poker is really good.however, i do think combat swords is an overall better spec than any dagger spec for the utility it provides... but thats something that cant really be proven with math, just opinion.



and something i cant stress enough, the tradeoff between burst and sustained dps is really not good here ><. a really small amount of damage per backstab i dont think should compare to 10% damage. its not something i can prove with math, but just think about it, would you give up 10% hit for 20 damage on your backstabs? thats basically the same thing as speccing 16/0/4 over 8/8/4.

 

[Druiddroid]

and something i cant stress enough, the tradeoff between burst and sustained dps is really not good here ><. a really small amount of damage per backstab i dont think should compare to 10% damage. its not something i can prove with math, but just think about it, would you give up 10% hit for 20 damage on your backstabs? thats basically the same thing as speccing 16/0/4 over 8/8/4.

to each their own.



that extra ~100 damage (assuming it's an extra 20 non-crit backstab damage) from the burst that a 16/0/4 has can make the difference in killing an FC, or really any target.



some rogues like to kill stuff in seconds. nothing wrong with that.



8/8/4 might be better in most situations, but burst is always a good thing to have.

 

[Conrose]

Something I learned about sustained damage in PvP as a melee class during Arena seasons 2 and 3.



It means nothing without mobility. Combat swords spec at 29 has the extra option of imp sprint while your proposed spec has only vanish and trinket for root/snare breaks and Sprint to recover speed during a snare. Add to this that you are working around positional restrictions of backstab vs Combat's use of SS without said restrictions. You have a 4 second window to squeeze out damage through before your target can squeese out a counter. You can just forget about catching a mage (Case for all melee in the bracket). That said, any hunter will make sport of you regardless of their spec. You get snared, a backpedaller will get the upperhand after the increased chance to survive your opening burst saves them long enough to get a heal.



Dagger builds gamble on "Killing you before you or your team-mates notice I'm there"... alot of Twink builds across all brackets are built around this concept. The other types of damage builds are Mobility and survivability builds. If your build isn't focusing on killing someone in 2-4 GCDs, it better include tools to keep in melee. That all said... farm lots of magic dust and practice using grenades, you'll need to.

 

[summa]

i think you all blow this burst way out of proportion. ive pretty much never been in a situation with my rogue where i had to kill someone in 2 seconds, and was able to only because of an extra 20 damage per backstab (it is actually 34 per backstab before armor, so about 60 per backstab crit before armor).



if you wanted that though, you would be ambush spec with all ap gear... 2 crit ambushes will always be way more burst than 2 crit backstabs... not to mention crit ambushes come about way more. so the question is why arent all dagger rogues ambush specced? the answer is because they arent going for "all out burst", they are going for a balance between burst and sustained damage.



for what seems like the 50th time now, let me mention that going from 16/0/4 to 8/8/4 is a loss of burst for sustained damage, just like going from ambush spec to daggers. its a matter of how much burst one will give up for sustained damage, and all i can say is that the tradeoff in this case seems very favorable to 8/8/4.



to reiterate the same question, would you people give up 10% hit (assuming there was no soft cap) for 20 damage per backstab? i sure hope not.

 

[Conrose]

i think you all blow this burst way out of proportion. ive pretty much never been in a situation with my rogue where i had to kill someone in 2 seconds, and was able to only because of an extra 20 damage per backstab (it is actually 34 per backstab before armor, so about 60 per backstab crit before armor).



if you wanted that though, you would be ambush spec with all ap gear... 2 crit ambushes will always be way more burst than 2 crit backstabs... not to mention crit ambushes come about way more. so the question is why arent all dagger rogues ambush specced? the answer is because they arent going for "all out burst", they are going for a balance between burst and sustained damage.



for what seems like the 50th time now, let me mention that going from 16/0/4 to 8/8/4 is a loss of burst for sustained damage, just like going from ambush spec to daggers. its a matter of how much burst one will give up for sustained damage, and all i can say is that the tradeoff in this case seems very favorable to 8/8/4.



to reiterate the same question, would you people give up 10% hit (assuming there was no soft cap) for 20 damage per backstab? i sure hope not.

Because Ambush Spec falls into the category of "3 Minute *Class Name Here*" Like PoM Pyro was the 3 Minute Mage. It's reliant on a single moderately long cooldown (Though it gets shortened by talents) and is best utilized in Premades. With the change to Ambush it relies on a 3 attack burst of Ambush, Vanish + Ambush, Eviscerate. While vanish is on cooldown, they have a hard time killing anything. However, I've seen plenty of these types of rogues on the BGs. The balance between them is 16/0/4 is not as cooldown reliant and therefore capable of their primary burst combos more often... Ambush Specs have a much greater burst capacity, but not as often. 8/8/4 has sustainable damage over greater time frames, but is more liable to lose out an opportunity to finish off a target quickly if a healer is keeping tabs on them. I've seen plenty of times when I wished I could have gotten the kill in one or two seconds because they recieved their heal on the third.



Now something I want to know is what is your 8/8/4 build's sustained damage compared to a few of the combat specs out there, which gain plenty of sustained damage and can gain the benefit of extra mobility to maintain their sustained damage over a longer period of time.

 

[Kazin]

Sigh, i dont read the forums for a day and I get a billion posts to respond to. I really dont feel like going into everything, but I'll say this.



I'm guessing you've never been in a serious 10v10 premade because if you have you would realize the point of going daggers: Best 29 burst class. In a premade, everyone has very specific tasks. There are healers, dispelers, dpsers, burst classes, and cc classes. A priest wouldn't spec into holy, even though they can achieve better HPS, because their purpose is to play utility and dispel, manaburn, bubble etc. Pallys are usually the true "healers" of the group because priests have different roles to accomplish that they are better at.



DPSers are either sustained DPS or burst dps. The best sustained dps class at 29 are warlocks (by far) and then hunters. Also to a lesser extent sword rogues, but those are more for a utility standpoint by shutting down healers. If you want to roll a class that does insane sustained dps, roll a lock. The point of rolling a dagger rogue is because YOU ARE THE BEST BURST CLASS. You could argue balance drood or fire mage, but you would be wrong. Dagger rogues have a built in ability to get close to the FC (stealth) and then are able to burst down the FC in a short amount of time (before heals) then be close enough to return the flag, better than any other class. Since you hopefully understand everyone has a specific role in a premade, you should be able to wrap your mind around speccing to best accomplish this goal. Since rogues are the best burst, you naturally min/max to make them the best burst class they can be. If you really think an extra 60 dmg on a crit backstab isnt a big deal (which i'd love to see the math on, since I'm sure you forgot to calculate the glyph) then idk what to tell you. You're not just hitting them once. I usually hit the fc with 3 backstabs every very quickly, which by your calculations could be anywhere from 90 at the low end to 180 at the high end (which i again, would still love to see the math on) Usually at this point (or after the sapper lol), they are either dead, or I am feared/rooted/snared/somehow cc'd if their team is any good. You never let the rogue stay on your FC. GL finding that ideal situation where you're fighting someone with downs syndrome who is going to /sit after every other hit and give you their back the entire fight. It just doesnt happen. You get a limited opportunity to do as much burst as possible as quickly as possible. Hopefully if your team is any good, you will be helped out by a lock or hunter or a good SUSTAINED DPS class that will make the bursting down easier, and eat through some of the heals. They are able to SUSTAIN THEIR DPS. Because they can do it at a range, and arent as hindered by many cc's as a rogue is.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that in imagination land where everyone stands still and lets you backstab them, 8/8/4 is prob hella awesome. Back here in cold harsh reality though when your min/maxing to actually win a game, and your opponents prob wont be too happy about you backstabbing their FC, you need to spec the "good spec" to actually try to win games.



Rly though, post the math. Its retarded to say "I have this math that I'm not going to post" when you can just press ctrl c ctrl v. It's pretty simple rly. Also Idk what your talking about ppl not liking math posts. The only post I was ever thanked for on this forum was the one where I posted all the math for rogue chants.



Also I saw you posted this in the cyclone forums and got owned. It made me giggle.