19s combat/plays tyles discussion

[Mocha]

Well, I wanted to possibly discuss, with whomever is willing to share their opinion(s), how combat is going right now/recently in our bracket.



Personally I feel every class has currently too much burst. I feel in most cases 19s have abilities far beyond their levels, drastically changing combat. I feel like rogues now are all about getting an opener and being able to shadowstep everywhere to get their kb (lawl). Also I feel that hunters now have no reason to stop kiting etc.



Also I notice a lot of tactics that were once frowned upon for being terrible. I feel like no one tries to play how they used to. Personally I see no fake-healing or fake-jumping any more, little back-strafing and a huge lack of awareness. I would say too much burst is the cause of most of these problems.



It is simply sad to see even great players not try, by using the tactics that once made them good, and as a result we all suffer... Now skill in my opinion has drastically evaporated.



For example, duels now last about 25 seconds because no one feels the need to evade combat, FA when possible, los etc. Sure every class has their ability that crits for over 600, obviously shortening combat, but I think that everyone has forgotten that skill should come before everything else (except latency)



What do you guys think? Please feel free to share some opinions etc, try to stay away from the hatespam etc (even though I get loads of amusement reading it, especially when directed to me) and try to keep this open and on topic.

Cheers, Mocha

 

[Nit]

Too much has changed for it to be like it ever use to be. I give mad props for the ones sticking 19s out, but it's all nostalgia at this point. 70s is my new 19s... feels much like it did there as 19s did years ago, but as I said, props to those that are riding it on out!

 

[Grizzlefoot]

I feel that healing and damage are both too high for the amount of HP's everyone has. People can go from 1% to full in a couple flash heals and people can go from 100% to dead in 5 seconds, both would need to be toned down for 19s to be more balanced imo

 

[Evade]

TLDR version:this bracket is fucking up the asshole hardcore

 

[Curley]

From switching from 4.0+ to WotlK it was completely different when i went on hamcake land to retail. Fights are way quicker on retail. I agree no1 fakes really funny

 

[Evade]

From switching from 4.0+ to WotlK it was completely different when i went on hamcake land to retail. Fights are way quicker on retail. I agree no1 fakes really funny

hey you can't say that, your goin to jale



(sorry wannabe trolls, I know how to spell jail)

 

[Udiesoon]

I think there are some specific mechanics, besides too much healing and too much burst, that are corrupting the bracket. For example, a priest bubble absorbing 500+ dmg negates some of the need to fake heal when there is no penalty of death for a silience.



Hunters, honestly, make me sad. A 40 yard ranged highest DPS class with NO downtime and INFINITE SLOWS is stupid. When 2 ticks of explosive shot out dmg my ambush, you know something is wrong. I've played this bracket for 6 years, and now is the only time ive ever considered quitting it. There is no way to outplay a hunter. 1 second downtime on concussive shot, disengage, scattershot, ranged bat stun, wingclip... as a melee, I see no positive outcome.

 

[Spectre]

I agree, Mocha, that's why I play as a combat rogue. I get a lot of eyebrows, but it's still a viable spec. More fun, too. Subtlety is just too boring. Combat doesn't have stellar burst damage, but it has consistently high dps. The most annoying thing is having a good 1v1 with someone employing skill, such as back-jumping, FA, gouges and all that jazz, just to have some sub spec rogue shadowstep behind me and ambush me before either I or the other guy can finish each other off. Bravo, rogue, clearly you have proved yourself to be a worthy opponent. /eyeroll



I can't complain too much about that, though, WSG is a team effort, so I'm not saying rogues shouldn't help, but without arenas no one gets to do 1v1's, 2v2's, etc., so I like getting the chance to in WSG when I can. My biggest problem with rogues is that most of them just shadowstep-ambush-sprint away-restealth. It just seems like the most obviously cowardly play-style (no offense intended, I get that that's the point of sub spec, but come on. You have to admit it's the pussiest tactic).



As far as fake healing/fake spell-casting, I have no problem with people not doing that anymore... XD



EDIT: I really want to stress I'm not trying to flame on sub rogues or anyone in particular, though it might offend some people. This is just my opinion and I know other people think the same thing. I'm just voicing that point of view in a hopefully rational discourse.

 

[Yayo]

I still back-jump but I dont see many others do it.

 

[Nohealsforju]

i still fake cast it is fun doing it. And fake jumping do you mean lag hacking? IE: some one looks like they fell but actually lag hack so people chase him down and he is still up.



Also, eventually(hopefully soon) Blizzard can fix their mistakes and scale attacks and heals properly so there is not so much burst because then it will end up like the 80 bracket (10 second monkey shit fights) w/no skill and no tactics just button smash and watch pretty yellow crits in the air.

 

[Mocha]

Totally agree about hunters but when have they not been op as hell? Now it's pretty bad, but I'm still not very tempted to quit.... as pointed out before, my nostalgia for oldschool 19s won't let me quit lol. But I totally agree about the sub spec, hence why I'm combat on my most played rogue. It just seems wrong going from intense duels with dodges and sick stuff like that and bandaging between garrote ticks, to a 2 button tactic: shadowstep, ambush, repeat. I brought up the point a while ago is if they nerfed everyone's damage... sounds terrible at first to most, but I'd rather that than for blizz to introduce more resil at lower levels.... that's a terrible idea.... and if they fixed some of the obvious things in need of fixing (i.e. the fact that SS does less damage than white hits unless combat)... and I feel like shadowstep is too op for a level 10 rogue to handle... and still too high-leveled of a move for a 19... also I miss when druids knew how to not be in cat for the entire duration of a wsg game... and when warriors had shields equipped... and when rogues were 90% based on dodge... those are some things that, to me, are how they should always be...

 

[Yayo]

Totally agree about hunters but when have they not been op as hell? Now it's pretty bad, but I'm still not very tempted to quit.... as pointed out before, my nostalgia for oldschool 19s won't let me quit lol. But I totally agree about the sub spec, hence why I'm combat on my most played rogue. It just seems wrong going from intense duels with dodges and sick stuff like that and bandaging between garrote ticks, to a 2 button tactic: shadowstep, ambush, repeat. I brought up the point a while ago is if they nerfed everyone's damage... sounds terrible at first to most, but I'd rather that than for blizz to introduce more resil at lower levels.... that's a terrible idea.... and if they fixed some of the obvious things in need of fixing (i.e. the fact that SS does less damage than white hits unless combat)... and I feel like shadowstep is too op for a level 10 rogue to handle... and still too high-leveled of a move for a 19... also I miss when druids knew how to not be in cat for the entire duration of a wsg game... and when warriors had shields equipped... and when rogues were 90% based on dodge... those are some things that, to me, are how they should always be...

I miss before Travel form and ghost wolf.

 

[Tikxlongshot]

i agree with the balancing of damage and healing, Nothing more annnoying going 1v1 with a Holy pally, just for him to pop 3 flashes and start all over again...

 

[Spectre]

But I totally agree about the sub spec, hence why I'm combat on my most played rogue. It just seems wrong going from intense duels with dodges and sick stuff like that and bandaging between garrote ticks, to a 2 button tactic: shadowstep, ambush, repeat... and I feel like shadowstep is too op for a level 10 rogue to handle... and still too high-leveled of a move for a 19...

You're right about shadowstep being OP for 19's. We should set up a 1v1 between our combat rogues some time. I miss old school rogue duels so I'd look forward to doing that again. I generally play at night and when I do I'm usually on the public vent, if you're ever on and see me (vent name: spectre) stop in and say "hi" and maybe we can do that.

 

[Spectre]

And fake jumping do you mean lag hacking? IE: some one looks like they fell but actually lag hack so people chase him down and he is still up.

Hehe, I remember when I discovered that. It was fun to grab the flag and "exit" tunnel, let all the heat run down midfield and then appear behind them to go a different direction. I'm such a bastard (I don't/can't do that anymore though).

 

[Rivfader]

Wrath warriors were the perfect class, good mix of utility and viable damage without being OP. They had a high skill cap and an answer to almost every situation without having too many abilities. I wish all classes could be that balanced right now.

 

[Rivfader]

I agree, Mocha, that's why I play as a combat rogue. I get a lot of eyebrows, but it's still a viable spec. More fun, too. Subtlety is just too boring. Combat doesn't have stellar burst damage, but it has consistently high dps. The most annoying thing is having a good 1v1 with someone employing skill, such as back-jumping, FA, gouges and all that jazz, just to have some sub spec rogue shadowstep behind me and ambush me before either I or the other guy can finish each other off. Bravo, rogue, clearly you have proved yourself to be a worthy opponent. /eyeroll



I can't complain too much about that, though, WSG is a team effort, so I'm not saying rogues shouldn't help, but without arenas no one gets to do 1v1's, 2v2's, etc., so I like getting the chance to in WSG when I can. My biggest problem with rogues is that most of them just shadowstep-ambush-sprint away-restealth. It just seems like the most obviously cowardly play-style (no offense intended, I get that that's the point of sub spec, but come on. You have to admit it's the pussiest tactic).



As far as fake healing/fake spell-casting, I have no problem with people not doing that anymore... XD



EDIT: I really want to stress I'm not trying to flame on sub rogues or anyone in particular, though it might offend some people. This is just my opinion and I know other people think the same thing. I'm just voicing that point of view in a hopefully rational discourse.

You're looking at sub too one-dimensionally that initial burst may be great but it's true strength is mobility. Sure you can ShS>ambush bads down in no time but if you blow ShS just for the extra damage against a decent twink then you will probably get shit on. Combat is very one-dimensional and is certianly a better spec for people who are only concerned with damage, the better players, however, will find that it lacks far too much utility.

 

[Spectre]

You're looking at sub too one-dimensionally that initial burst may be great but it's true strength is mobility. Sure you can ShS>ambush bads down in no time but if you blow ShS just for the extra damage against a decent twink then you will probably get shit on. Combat is very one-dimensional and is certianly a better spec for people who are only concerned with damage, the better players, however, will find that it lacks far too much utility.

Haha, oh damn, calling me out. I agree, sub has much better utility, Blade Flurry is far less useful compared to Shadowstep, but I find it less fun personally. Sub is probably much better for WSG objectives in returning the flag and such, but my experience with sub rogues is that they just like to hang out in mid and gank anyone they come across. The better players, like you said, know what they're doing and make better use of their spec however.

 

[Rivfader]

True, most sub rogues just ShS>ambush people at low HP, that doesn't mean the skill cap is much higher though.

 

[Spectre]

The way I look at it, if I and a sub rogue are working the efc and my higher dps manages to get his health low enough before some stupid shit happens (ie priest fear, tauren stomp, what have you), the sub rogue can shadowstep as the fc tries to escape, finish him off and return the flag which may not have been possible if it had instead been two sub rogues. I think it's smarter to diversify your team with multiple builds rather than having all your eggs in one basket, if you will. Which is why I stressed that I meant no disrespect to sub rogues. I may not respect the spec much, but I will respect the player.