19 Warrior - Crusader Vs. Lifestealing?

[Theme]

Given say, 20% melee crit and say, 20% mitigation, crusader isn't going to see much change in overall dps benefit from the fact that it scales with mitigation and crit.

What I meant was that the difference going from 15% armor and 5% dodge priest to a 45% armor and 14% dodge and 5% parry warrior is quite huge for crusaders scaling. Its over twice as good against the priest than its against the warrior. Nowdays scaling with crit and haste arent that much of a point since after proff/enchant nerfs crit/haste levels are pretty standard or vary very little, thats true.



Applying rend or using op during crusader increases its value as well as using thunder clap. On the otherhand using those during the proc means increased chance to refresh the proc while old proc is still on, making it less useful. As said its not straightforward.



Also 2h benefits more from crusader trought overpowers used during the procs. Also without maths you cannot say the increase in amount of procs is worth the same for both enchants (for example, more procs means more overslapping for crusader). Again hardly straightforward.

 

[Ymir]

What I meant was that the difference going from 15% armor and 5% dodge priest to a 45% armor and 14% dodge and 5% parry warrior is quite huge for crusaders scaling. Its over twice as good against the priest than its against the warrior. Nowdays scaling with crit and haste arent that much of a point since after proff/enchant nerfs crit/haste levels are pretty standard or vary very little, thats true.



Applying rend or using op during crusader increases its value as well as using thunder clap. On the otherhand using those during the proc means increased chance to refresh the proc while old proc is still on, making it less useful. As said its not straightforward.



Also 2h benefits more from crusader trought overpowers used during the procs. Also without maths you cannot say the increase in amount of procs is worth the same for both enchants (for example, more procs means more overslapping for crusader). Again hardly straightforward.

Yes, it's clear that crusader benefits more from hitting low armored targets, but that's irrelevant in a comparison with lifestealing, because, as I mentioned, it also scales with melee crit, minimizing the net variance. Avoidance is a complete non issue, as both enchants scale with it.



Refreshing the proc while the proc is still active is also less of an issue than you make it out to be, as unless you are taking back to back procs of each (something that would occur about once for every 250 sets of swings for crusader with BAR, less than 1 in 250 for any other weapon) as your example, you are still gaining partial benefit from the refresh, with a low chance of it even happening.



In short, you're making a lot of fuss over details that add up to minimal dps variance.



Basically, unless you're going to try to mathematically challenge something that has been common knowledge for years, arguing against it looks a little foolish. I can understand why you would choose not to waste your time with such a mathematical exercise, however, feel free.



Also, a 2h does not benefit more from overpowers during the proc, as without access to improved overpower or taste for blood at level 19, overpower is simply a second chance to take a swing that was avoided. You're simply making up for the damage that you lost from that swing. 2h loses more damage from being dodged, gains more from overpower, no net difference.





Crusader for damage, lifestealing for healing, same as ever.



If you want to challenge the research that has already been done to death on the subject, the onus is on you, not me, to provide math I'm afraid.

 

[Theme]

Avoidance is a complete non issue, as both enchants scale with it.

Both scale with it, but crusader scales alot more as I explained already, when your procing it and while you have the actual proc.

Also, a 2h does not benefit more from overpowers during the proc, as without access to improved overpower or taste for blood at level 19, overpower is simply a second chance to take a swing that was avoided. You're simply making up for the damage that you lost from that swing. 2h loses more damage from being dodged, gains more from overpower, no net difference.

Overpower can proc from dodged hamstring for example so it does not equal a dodged swing.



Originally I mentioned the maths when someone clearly tried to oversimplifie them and draw false conclusions from them. But yes I am personally intrested in how the enchants actually work thats why Ive been keeping this conversation up. Ive not challenged anything just been discussing.

Crusader for damage, lifestealing for healing, same as ever.

Lifestealing actually does more dmg on high armor/avoidance targets.

 

[Ymir]

Lifestealing actually does more dmg on high armor/avoidance targets.

You know what, you're wrong.



You're also wrong about crusaders scaling with avoidance being different, for the same reason you were wrong about 2h crusaders scaling with OP being different.



I suggest you actually do the math, since we don't seem to be communicating well here, as it's quite challenging to explain things that are really just common sense, such as the OP scaling.

 

[Theme]

You know what, you're wrong.

Thats intresting if its true, would you like to tell why do you think so?

 

[Ymir]

Thats intresting if its true, would you like to tell why do you think so?

Like I said, it's been done to death. If you want to argue against 4 years of math, you might want to present some conflicting evidence, rather than just saying 'hey the sky is green'.



Unless you're talking about targets with 60% mitigation, in which case, hey, you're right, but who cares? It's irrelevant.



In fact the intention of the post was to get you to put something on the table other than constant repetition of arguments that were disproved 4 years ago, however, true to form, you're avoiding it again. If you had something to back up your statement, I gave you the perfect opportunity to demonstrate it. You clearly don't.

 

[Theme]

Like I said, it's been done to death. If you want to argue against 4 years of math, you might want to present some conflicting evidence, rather than just saying 'hey the sky is green'.

Yeah right thats very valid argument. There is nothing like "4 years of math" Ive been in twink community a bit over year now and Ive not seen a single post with even near valid maths about the subject (or any else subject, community doesnt really appreciate math too much as far as I can tell).



But let me try. Lets say 270 seconds of fight. Enemy is a warrior with 45% mitigation and 12% dodge 5% parry (ignoring block). We are a warrior with 20% crit and a sf with 2.7s speed, hit capped. Lets assume for example 3 specials/10 seconds.



Lifestealing: 6ppm, 6/(60s/2.7s)=27% proc chance

Crusader: 1ppm, 1/(60s/2.7s)=4.5% proc chance



270s/2.7s=100swings and 27*3=81 specials --->181 proc chances.

Ignoring possible overpowers: 21.72 dodges, 9.05 parries, 150.23 proc chances.



Lifestealing: 150.23*0.27=40.5621 procs ignoring resists/crits thats 1216.863dmg



Crusader: 150.23*0.045=6.76035 procs. Ignoring overslapping: 101.40525s uptime.

(Attack Power / 14) * Weapon Speed = Damage, thats the formula for dmg increase per swing. So: 200/14*2.7=38.5714dmg



Now during crusader: 101.40525s/2.7s=37.5575 swings.

4.5069 dodges, 1.877875 parries, 7.5115 crits and 23.661225 hits.

That makes 23.661225*38.5714dmg+7.5115*38.5714dmg*2= 1492,160902185dmg

Add in armor 1492,160902185dmg*0.55= 820.6885dmg



Now we could argue if tcs/rends/ops add enough for crusader but I doubt it and I am too tired to do the maths. This is where I got my argument now you could prove it wrong or show yours.

 

[Ymir]

Yeah right thats very valid argument. There is nothing like "4 years of math" Ive been in twink community a bit over year now and Ive not seen a single post with even near valid maths about the subject (or any else subject, community doesnt really appreciate math too much as far as I can tell).



But let me try. Lets say 270 seconds of fight. Enemy is a warrior with 45% mitigation and 12% dodge 5% parry (ignoring block). We are a warrior with 20% crit and a sf with 2.7s speed, hit capped. Lets assume for example 3 specials/10 seconds.



Lifestealing: 6ppm, 6/(60s/2.7s)=27% proc chance

Crusader: 1ppm, 1/(60s/2.7s)=4.5% proc chance



270s/2.7s=100swings and 27*3=81 specials --->181 proc chances.

Ignoring possible overpowers: 21.72 dodges, 9.05 parries, 150.23 proc chances.



Lifestealing: 150.23*0.27=40.5621 procs ignoring resists/crits thats 1216.863dmg



Crusader: 150.23*0.045=6.76035 procs. Ignoring overslapping: 101.40525s uptime.

(Attack Power / 14) * Weapon Speed = Damage, thats the formula for dmg increase per swing. So: 200/14*2.7=38.5714dmg



Now during crusader: 101.40525s/2.7s=37.5575 swings.

4.5069 dodges, 1.877875 parries, 7.5115 crits and 23.661225 hits.

That makes 23.661225*38.5714dmg+7.5115*38.5714dmg*2= 1492,160902185dmg

Add in armor 1492,160902185dmg*0.55= 820.6885dmg



Now we could argue if tcs/rends/ops add enough for crusader but I doubt it and I am too tired to do the maths. This is where I got my argument now you could prove it wrong or show yours.

Thanks



Wish it didn't take so long, I almost went and did it myself as it was getting to be like pulling teeth to get you to back up your statements.



Numbers look good, lifestealing > crusader vs FCs etc. In fact probably even vs several other classes as that's a significant difference.



The lack of an instant attack feedback loop really makes a difference.



You know you could have made it all much easier by saying 3.5 (crusader autoattack dps increase) x 1.2 (for 20% crit) x .55 (for 45% mitigation) < 3 (lifestealing autoattack dps increase). All the numbers were right there for you.

 

[Theme]

You know you could have made it all much easier by saying 3.5 (crusader autoattack dps increase) x 1.2 (for 20% crit) x .55 (for 45% mitigation) < 3 (lifestealing autoattack dps increase).

I am not really sure am I following you with this. This seems to ignore the fact that crusader scales negatively with avoidance since your attacks during the proc can be dodged, whereas your lifestealing proc cannot. Yes it might prove my point but doesnt really tell anything. Id say its quite oversimplification. My way its also quite easy to add the instant attack dmgs to the end sum once I cba.



Ive not been pulling any teeths here, I were waiting you to show me those "4 years of maths" so I could fix my own maths if they really were wrong. But obviously you dont have anything to prove your arguments, actually I am not sure at all what your argument is at this point.

 

[Fcadin]

I am not really sure am I following you with this. This seems to ignore the fact that crusader scales negatively with avoidance since your attacks during the proc can be dodged, whereas your lifestealing proc cannot. Yes it might prove my point but doesnt really tell anything. Id say its quite oversimplification. My way its also quite easy to add the instant attack dmgs to the end sum once I cba.



Ive not been pulling any teeths here, I were waiting you to show me those "4 years of maths" so I could fix my own maths if they really were wrong. But obviously you dont have anything to prove your arguments, actually I am not sure at all what your argument is at this point.

lifestealing beats crusader, hands down, read youre own math, (unless you copied and pasted it which you probably did) sader has 812 damage lifestealing has roughly 1200, whats to argue?

 

[Theme]

lifestealing beats crusader, hands down, read youre own math, (unless you copied and pasted it which you probably did) sader has 812 damage lifestealing has roughly 1200, whats to argue?

I am not sure what your talking about here? I claimed that lifestealin>crusader on high mitigation/avoidance target. Ymir disagreed and asked for maths. I did maths. Thats it.



P.s. Yeah for god sake ofc I copy pasted them, Id need to be a real genius to handle that level of math right? I mean seriously all that multiplying is so terribly hard, not mention that dividing, phew.

 

[shanker]

in 19 bracket, LS has been coming back huge, especially after patch 3.1. i see alot of warriors and paladins especially with LS on butcher slicer sword. now on some paladins they also roll with 30SP on a butcher slicer. the glow on that enchant looks near the same as LS

 

[Omgimarogue]

if we're talking WSG, LoS, running out of melee range, and down time are all factors here. LS hits for 30 27% of hits. Crusader hits 4.5% (both on a 2.7 weapon) With LS, you'll proc at least ~1/4 hits Sader is much different. Every hit you have a .045% chance to proc sader (keep in mind this is on a 2.7 weapon) Keeping this in mind LS is an obvious choice for 1h, while sader has the most burst potential because of the huge imp damage for that 15s. LS 1h Sader 2h imho

 

[Ymir]

I am not really sure am I following you with this. This seems to ignore the fact that crusader scales negatively with avoidance since your attacks during the proc can be dodged, whereas your lifestealing proc cannot. Yes it might prove my point but doesnt really tell anything. Id say its quite oversimplification. My way its also quite easy to add the instant attack dmgs to the end sum once I cba.



Ive not been pulling any teeths here, I were waiting you to show me those "4 years of maths" so I could fix my own maths if they really were wrong. But obviously you dont have anything to prove your arguments, actually I am not sure at all what your argument is at this point.

My argument is that you need to show some evidence when you make a statement that goes against common perception. Fair enough you haven't been around long enough to know that it was the common perception however.



And it says exactly the same as your maths says, just a lot easier. The advantage to all this 'oversimplification' you keep talking about is you don't make things so complex that you forget basics like how overpower works (yes I'm still surprised at that).

 

[Theme]

My argument is that you need to show some evidence when you make a statement that goes against common perception. Fair enough you haven't been around long enough to know that it was the common perception however.



And it says exactly the same as your maths says, just a lot easier. The advantage to all this 'oversimplification' you keep talking about is you don't make things so complex that you forget basics like how overpower works (yes I'm still surprised at that).

So when you said that crusader does more dmg than lifestealing you didnt actually mean it or did I got this all wrong?



I am really confiused about the overpower, you might want to explain it. How I see it is for example: 15sec crusader 7 white attacks. None gets avoided but your hamstring gets dodged. You use that overpower during the crusader and whop it does more dmg thx to crusader and your crusader has gained more value compared to lifestealing. Simple as that, Id consider it as any other extra instant attack, now I ask you to show me how is this wrong?

 

[Cliche]

Overpower is not just another white attack, its an instant attack and its normalized. An overpower should hit for less than a white attack. If you can keep sader up more often, then it is better than LS. WIth a slow weapon, say bar, you have a 6.33% chance of having sader proc. Now with say 10 white swings due to losing some from range, and 15 instants within a minute, you have a 1 - binomcdf(25,0.19/3,1) = 47.59% chance of sader proccing twice. Now I personally use a lot more than 15 instants a minute making that % higher but I am oversimplyifying somewhat and ignoring overlaps. This is partly because an overlapped sader is basically 200 free health in a small periiod of time, benefiting you anyways.



Again using a bar:

Using that same number of 10 auto attacks and 15 instants, your average healing returned on a 2hander would be 158.33 healing with sader. With LS your average healing returned is 285. Ls always heals more than sader which is why you use LS on a one hander.



Ls on a BAR will have that same 285 damage on average. Crusader will have:

200/14 = 14.2857

14.2857 * 3.8 = 54.2857 extra damage per swing obtained from the sader buff.

You get on average 1.5833 procs so 15*1.5833 = 23.75, the average amount of time per minute using 10 swings and 15 instants that (ignoring largely beneficial overlaps) that the sader buff will be up.

23.75/3.8=6 white damage swings you get while sader buff is up

6*54.2857 = 325.714 extra damage, just from white swings, you should get from sader.



Using a bar, 10 white swings and 15 instants:

Ls - 285 extra damage

Sader - 325 extra damage



Considering one handers, I would rather have the LS for the increased survivability as I have also shown that LS scales better with healing while worse with damage

 

[Acombs101]

Lol I left this post after about 2-3 replies.



I'm not rerolling another warrior, I was going to but I found a different realm to head to, so this is pretty much useless now. 5 more pages I never read, can we stop arguing over who's right about proc times etc? Lmao

 

[Cliche]

Lol I left this post after about 2-3 replies.



I'm not rerolling another warrior, I was going to but I found a different realm to head to, so this is pretty much useless now. 5 more pages I never read, can we stop arguing over who's right about proc times etc? Lmao

Erm, its a discussion about which enchant is better. I definitely think a thread like this is a good reference thread for people and i dont see the point of shutting down discussion even if I am right

 

[Maelstrom]

I have sader on my 1h and I'm a big fan of it. The proc combined with bash/stomp/bash on my Tauren usually leads to herb or agm being forced, or a dead healer.