Mistweaver General ideas / help before sub runs out

JadeFire said:
If you take the lot of BC gem gear, put all INT/whatever gems into it - and take all the random/trash stats (seriously half that trash has Critical strike on it :p) on that gear instead of Mastery... you Surging/Vifiy will do less than stacking Mastery on slotted i28 greens by about 300-400... and you will lose all your burst on other heals just like I said (which is more important).
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I really am not sure why so many of you are discounting crit as a stat. I did not try healing on a level 20 yet, so I guess I might be not seeing something obvious, but I am also not exactly a noob and if arguments against crit are things along the lines of "it's unreliable", then that's nothing new and that's a solved issue (and have always been such at max level): if you rely on high values of crit for throughput and are worried about reliability, you have to use more ticking heals and have to start big heals earlier. The analysis above of "if I waste a lot of stats on crit, my non-crit heals are smaller" is a bit strange, because of course your non-crit heals are smaller, but you get crit heals more often. So, if crit is better for throughput than all other stats (maybe it isn't for mw, but I don't see any comparisons so it seems like nobody measured anything and crit just got braced off as "bad") and the margin is significant, then, well, its best to stack crit. Even if you are a healer. But, again, maybe it's something specific to level 20 or whatever and I am not seeing it due to lack of experience.
 
accel said:
I really am not sure why so many of you are discounting crit as a stat. I did not try healing on level 20 yet, so I guess I might not be seeing something, but I am also not exactly a noob and if arguments against crit are something along the lines of "it's unreliable", that's nothing new and that's a solved issue (and have always been such): if you rely on high values of crit for throughput, you have to use more ticking heals and have to start big heals earlier. The analysis above of "if I waste a lot of stats on crit, my non-crit heals are smaller" is a bit strange, because of course your non-crit heals are smaller, but you get crit heals more often. So, if crit is better for throughput than all other stats (maybe it isn't for mw, but I don't see any comparisons so it seems like nobody measured anything and crit just got braced off as "bad") and the margin is significant, then, well, its best to stack crit. Even if you are a healer. But, again, maybe it's something specific to level 20 or whatever and I am not seeing it due to lack of experience.
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20 is different than end game pvp, some of these S tier guys with i44 or i49s do bonkers damage... Here I want consistent BIG ASS HEALS to keep my dps up so when they get nuked they are back at full hp in a second or less... I don't want to have to rely on what MIGHT happen. AT best crit will NET you the same results or less as trying any other non mastery build over the coarse of a game... so why mess with anything random if its not better by a significant margin?

There are too many times in a game where "I need this next heal to do 1k".. and when it does not, your DPS peeler just got his face ripped off and you are next for lunch.
 
Well, this I understand, but the question is - is it better or worse, and if it is better, what is the margin? I agree that crit has to exceed other stats significantly in terms of throughput (eg, 20%+) to start trying to stack it. I am wondering whether crit was rejected as bad with or without measurements. (Not asking anyone to measure anything, just wondering whether this is a gray area or a known thing.)
 
accel said:
Well, this I understand, but the question is - is it better or worse, and if it is better, what is the margin? I agree that crit has to exceed other stats significantly in terms of throughput (eg, 20%+) to start trying to stack it. I am wondering whether crit was rejected as bad with or without measurements. (Not asking anyone to measure anything, just wondering whether this is a gray area or a known thing.)
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It's not that crit is worse by a huge margin its this: "There are too many times in a game where "I need this next heal to do 1k".. and when it does not, your DPS peeler just got his face ripped off and you are next for lunch."

Again thought I am only talking about Mistweaver here, because Mastery is just a flat baseline increase to all heals.

 
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All due respect, this is the "crit is unreliable" argument. Did anyone measure the throughput values for secondaries for mistweaver or not? On level 20. If not, fine. If yes, what are they?
 
accel said:
All due respect, this is the "crit is unreliable" argument. Did anyone measure the throughput values for secondaries for mistweaver or not? On level 20. If not, fine. If yes, what are they?
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You can, and I await your data. I suggest you buy all Decimator gear with a socket, so you can start with a pure base. You should have about 45% Crit in a BG... this is assuming you slotted int/crit gems.

I don't know how you are defining "unreliable", but If I had a gun to your head and said "roll this 100 sided die"... on a 1-55 I execute you. Not sure if you would roll it, especially when I had another option where you get better results with no threat of dying (mastery).
 
Thanks for the answer. Yes, if I end up rolling a mistweaver (it's one of the options I am considering), I'll measure and post. The juxtaposition of crit as "threat of dying" and mastery as "no threat of dying" is bogus. Even if you don't take crit, the enemy will, that factors in as well. All outcomes are always in probabilities. But yes, obviously, crit might lose to, say, mastery, simply on throughput. Before unreliability even factors in.
 
accel said:
All due respect, this is the "crit is unreliable" argument. Did anyone measure the throughput values for secondaries for mistweaver or not? On level 20. If not, fine. If yes, what are they?
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With the usual "speaking generally" caveats in place...

Twinks are so over stat-ed in relation to their base level spells that crit, historically, hasn't been much of a worry for twink healers. The heals are big enough if you got enough int, just gotta get them out faster. And now with mastery improving those heals even more, crits just kind of a lost stat. It's not that its unreliable so much as its a lot of random overhealing.

I remember Tence saying once that "your dps doesnt die because your heals werent big enough, they die because your heals didnt get there fast enough" and while Im not much of a healer, I fumbled around with one last xpac and generally found that to be true.
 
Chops said:
The heals are big enough if you got enough int, just gotta get them out faster.
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Aha, that might indeed be what I was missing (hp pools aren't big enough compared to average heals with lots of int that you are going to stack anyway). Thanks.
 
I remember Tence saying once that "your dps doesnt die because your heals werent big enough, they die because your heals didnt get there fast enough" and while Im not much of a healer, I fumbled around with one last xpac and generally found that to be true.
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That does sum it up... and again, why I like Mastery, because you are just adding on 400 INSTANT healing to all of your abilities. As I mentioned before being able to open up with Enveloping Mists and get that big burst, is unarguably worth it. Turing Renewing Mists into a 400 instant heal + the over time is also unarguably worth it. You are removing all of the down sides that a MW has and AT WORST performing the SAME as any other build.

The only thing I take that most people will argue against is I take Mist Wrap... I like "shields" and more often than not, set it and forget it takes care of the job. I just don't think Chi Wave does enough in Shadow Lands, Fist Weaving is just not where it was in BFA.
 
This post isn't directed at any one post specifically- more of a response to a few observations.

I think devaluing crit is not, objectively, good. It is actually very consistent on MW as a result of how split apart MW's healing is. However, I think the main point to bring up is the value of vers on MW & how important haste is.

Based off experience, I like haste- it's fun. However, based off of wargame experience, it's not ideal to stack too much. This is because there is normally a 'sweet spot' between 13% and 16% out of BG that translates into not losing any globals and gaining other stats. There is the argument that perhaps there could be a couple globals gained, however, I would deem this null since MW actually has a lot of free globals if played well. In fact, MW doesn't gain nearly as much benefit from haste as other healers do because of how soothing mist & surging mist have a short GCD.

Additionally, if we're actually looking to min-max, MW actually wants a specific amount of haste (I do not know the numbers) since for every haste point a certain amount of healing is added on top of the last tic of enveloping mist until it reaches an new tic. Haste doesn't actually increase the tic's healing itself; it works towards making a new tic, consequently affecting the tooltip. This last tic can be very impactful and sometimes completely useless; food for thought.

Then, for vers, I think it's a bad idea to not stack any whatsoever. It's not even the damage reduction, albeit MW is actually a prime dive target due to roots & stuns on a leather class that generally isn't tanky, but the fact that vers increases the massive healing output of MW by a significant percent. Plus, vers magnifies mastery healing- which seems to be the OP's main focus.
 
Kakakaka said:
This post isn't directed at any one post specifically- more of a response to a few observations.

I think devaluing crit is not, objectively, good. It is actually very consistent on MW as a result of how split apart MW's healing is. However, I think the main point to bring up is the value of vers on MW & how important haste is.

Based off experience, I like haste- it's fun. However, based off of wargame experience, it's not ideal to stack too much. This is because there is normally a 'sweet spot' between 13% and 16% out of BG that translates into not losing any globals and gaining other stats. There is the argument that perhaps there could be a couple globals gained, however, I would deem this null since MW actually has a lot of free globals if played well. In fact, MW doesn't gain nearly as much benefit from haste as other healers do because of how soothing mist & surging mist have a short GCD.

Additionally, if we're actually looking to min-max, MW actually wants a specific amount of haste (I do not know the numbers) since for every haste point a certain amount of healing is added on top of the last tic of enveloping mist until it reaches an new tic. Haste doesn't actually increase the tic's healing itself; it works towards making a new tic, consequently affecting the tooltip. This last tic can be very impactful and sometimes completely useless; food for thought.

Then, for vers, I think it's a bad idea to not stack any whatsoever. It's not even the damage reduction, albeit MW is actually a prime dive target due to roots & stuns on a leather class that generally isn't tanky, but the fact that vers increases the massive healing output of MW by a significant percent. Plus, vers magnifies mastery healing- which seems to be the OP's main focus.
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If you take all Haste/Master Gear (outside of Neck/Rings - which should just be mastery). Your haste will be about 16% in BG and your Mastery will be 180ish.

As far as healing goes - Mastery is more effective than Versatility by a significant margin. IMO Versatility is much less important in Shadowlands FOR MISTWEAVERS than in BFA because 1) Mastery is just better for more healing 2) Shadowlands has much more high burst damage which lessens the value of Versatility (taking 3000 instead of 2900) is rarely relevant. When a Twink like Pxx pops a trinket and goes for the old suicide Turbo Fists... you having 10% reduction is not going to prevent your death... having some burst heals will/might.

You can stack all haste if you want to, I'm talking you can enter a BG with 50%+ if you go balls deep... the problem is this... you will heal about the same as any other build... you will have no burst... but you will go though mana 2x as fast... so you will just net less healing overall as you will OOM all of the time for no actual benefit.

***

This is not end game pvp. Considering MistWeaver only it seems like people want things to be true that are not actually what the numbers add up to/really effects a game. Not considering Intellect because you are getting that if you have on the correct gear/gemmed anyway... Mastery>Haste (to be honest I would give up all haste for max Mastery having see what it does in game - outside of slotting int/haste gems) is just the best thing you can do, Versatility is so far away from those two I honestly consider it a liability... and Crit is just well... we all know what it is.

The downside of Mastery is that you either have to buy the gear for 100s of thousands... or you have to farm it. So its hard to get people to do a proper comparitive test.

I just get to go blind reading about slotting BC gem gear... over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over........................................ and over..... and over... and over.
 
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JadeFire said:
If you take all Haste/Master Gear (outside of Neck/Rings - which should just be mastery). Your haste will be about 16% in BG and your Mastery will be 180ish.

As far as healing goes - Mastery is more effective than Versatility by a significant margin. IMO Versatility is much less important in Shadowlands FOR MISTWEAVERS than in BFA because 1) Mastery is just better for more healing 2) Shadowlands has much more high burst damage which lessens the value of Versatility (taking 3000 instead of 2900) is rarely relevant. When a Twink like Pxx pops a trinket and goes for the old suicide Turbo Fists... you having 10% reduction is not going to prevent your death... having some burst heals will/might.
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I think you misunderstood what I was depicting. I do mean 13-16% out of BG, and I am saying that you would trade the percent of haste for a percent of versatility which would prove much more value than gaining a few dead globals.
 
Kakakaka said:
I think you misunderstood what I was depicting. I do mean 13-16% out of BG, and I am saying that you would trade the percent of haste for a percent of versatility which would prove much more value than gaining a few dead globals.
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I understand what you meant now. The issue that I have however is that I would just rather have more Mastery. I would want more savant gear before I would want to start adding any amount of Versatility.

I don't have the best gear options to do a comparative study/I don't have uber stats from an i49 either... however.

190 int + 20% versatility +66% mastery + 16% Haste
Vivify does 351+178gust
Enveloping Mists does 1210tick + 189gust
Renewing Mists does 176 + 648tick

190 int + 3% versatility + 213% Mastery +22% Haste
Vivify does 286+434gust
Enveloping Mists does 1060tick + 478gust
Renewing Mists does 439+ 567tick

Versatility does not do a lot when compared to losing Mastery. You get this false sense of security "I'll live when I get hit for 2700 instead of 3000". And you lose all of your burst.

From that stand point alone, I would stipulate that all builds are pretty much equal in the output they can do just healing a dummy in town over the course of say 2 minutes... but the burst on all the abilities that Mastery provides is just a foolish thing to give up as it is just superior from the stand point of what BGs require, how burst healing saves people, and how effective you are overall.

The biggest advantage HANDS DOWN to Mastery is that you can lead much more often with Enveloping Mists and get that shield up knowing when you cast it your target gets out of the immediate danger zone... and also Renewing Mists becomes basically a free "Unleash Life" for your MW.
 
I think crit isn't so bad on MW, it just happens to be less valuable than any of the other stats. It still works. It's actually probably better than it is on other healers, because the constant stream of medium/small numbers smooths out the variability and results in more consistent and predictable throughput.
Counsel said:
Crit improves your mana efficiency.
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I mean yeah, so does every other relevant stat except haste. Everything that increases your healing without increasing mana expenditure increases efficiency.
 
CRIT IZ GUD! :B

Isn't there a way we can just ban the words/phrases crit, critical, criticleese, critimus, critastic, critolicious, critty, get-n-critty, merry-critmass, talk-shit-get-crit, count-critula, holy-crit, I-crit-my-pants, crit-head, and what ever other dumb-crit words/phrases there might be?

Stop saying critical strike is good, it is absolute dog-crit.
 
JadeFire said:
CRIT IZ GUD! :B

Isn't there a way we can just ban the words/phrases crit, critical, criticleese, critimus, critastic, critolicious, critty, get-n-critty, merry-critmass, talk-shit-get-crit, count-critula, holy-crit, I-crit-my-pants, crit-head, and what ever other dumb-crit words/phrases there might be?

Stop saying critical strike is good, it is absolute dog-crit.
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crit
 
Chops said:
With the usual "speaking generally" caveats in place...

I remember Tence saying once that "your dps doesnt die because your heals werent big enough, they die because your heals didnt get there fast enough" and while Im not much of a healer, I fumbled around with one last xpac and generally found that to be true.
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I feel so famous now! MOM GET THE CAMERA
 
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