Feel free to rip me a new one, but...

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There is no point in searching for a new meta, you can no longer split O and D, with the addition of individual rez's, its become pointless not to win mid, its super easy for someone new to learn and can be played in a manner where u can dominate easily. just gotta accept that rdruid is the only fc that can be used competitively, no one would gimp themselves, because its "too fast".

just gotta adapt man
 
Allybeboba said:
Great, then you know the strategies that we employ at endgame to curtail Druid FCs already. Many of those strategies can be modified to work in this bracket as well. Such as the 7-3, the 6-3-1, 10-0 Zerg. Most people just go willy-nilly when pugging and have no basic concept of any of these.
On maps with multiple GYs we should be splitting rezzes, or not splitting them.
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You still are not understanding what this thread is about. No one is complaining about RDruids and are requesting a ban. No one wants to discuss strats to beat Rdruid. It is to think about how much more diverse the games could be if rdruid wasnt a required FC.

Again i ask... If rdruids were out of the picture, what fc would you run?
 
what do you honestly see in every game you've been in at 39 so far? everybody meets mid while a druid goes stealth to flag(albeit alliance has i think 1 fc druid so usually our fc is whoever has highest health willing to do it)

once the druid has the flag they basically run like retards straight through the middle of everybody fighting because who cares if dps gets on them they just shift/displacer forward to heals and voila now you have the "lets wait for 6 stacks" dance until a return/cap and rinse and repeat. If you think there is ANY different gameplay going on then you clearly just don't actually pay attention in bgs.

If i can tell you EXACTLY how a bg will play out every time then something is boring about that meta and needs some spice added to it. I'm not saying ban druids either but the meta this game has turned into for wsg is stale at best. It is sad but unfortunately thats what the game is now.

Selaya I've abided by that "game theory" as well but at a point the game needs to be enjoyable for not only high end competition but also the average player so as to garner continued growth or sustainability for the bracket. If all people do is play the most OP/the same strategy then people will get bored and leave. Why do you think brackets have died in the past? It isn't JUST because of blizzard changes, it is in part also due to people getting bored of doing the SAME thing over and over. I know of at least 30 twinks that quit for that very reason...


on the point of the actual topic though, One of my favorite fc's was always a paladin. Toastage on pali was always a beast if anybody remembers that guy haha
 
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Pattern said:
Bm... if guard was unbanned. Other tank specs are severely gimped by blizz, bm has movement and 7k shields. Also haven't seen anyone run a dodge set yet.
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Guard is allowed for FCs actully. The problem is if they stack stam it turns into a 2k shield which is still better than nothing.
 
Skrubform said:
what do you honestly see in every game you've been in at 39 so far? everybody meets mid while a druid goes stealth to flag(albeit alliance has i think 1 fc druid so usually our fc is whoever has highest health willing to do it)

once the druid has the flag they basically run like retards straight through the middle of everybody fighting because who cares if dps gets on them they just shift/displacer forward to heals and voila now you have the "lets wait for 6 stacks" dance until a return/cap and rinse and repeat. If you think there is ANY different gameplay going on then you clearly just don't actually pay attention in bgs.

If i can tell you EXACTLY how a bg will play out every time then something is boring about that meta and needs some spice added to it. I'm not saying ban druids either but the meta this game has turned into for wsg is stale at best. It is sad but unfortunately thats what the game is now.

Selaya I've abided by that "game theory" as well but at a point the game needs to be enjoyable for not only high end competition but also the average player so as to garner continued growth or sustainability for the bracket. If all people do is play the most OP/the same strategy then people will get bored and leave. Why do you think brackets have died in the past? It isn't JUST because of blizzard changes, it is in part also due to people getting bored of doing the SAME thing over and over. I know of at least 30 twinks that quit for that very reason...


on the point of the actual topic though, One of my favorite fc's was always a paladin. Toastage on pali was always a beast if anybody remembers that guy haha
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Tostage is the warlock "Destroyerx" that has been in games as of late . Yeah I miss wrath pally FCs
 
Guard isn't banned for FC BMs :)

I agree that it's the most likely candidate for the "most OP, must run this only" FC, but even then BM monk FCs are played almost FRONTLINE even as FCs, which is, IMO, extremely interesting.

I've seen shook use his ele as an FC to moderate success, with over 10k HP, ghost wolf, self heals and tstorm.

I'm just experimenting myself, but I slapped together a possible FC set for my arms war, that still had enough bite to be effective in mid. I have the more standard gear in bags, like green tower/faerie dragon, or leather/cloth gear with more stam, but I'd like to maintain a high armor rating and have the strength for rend ticks/executes to matter, letting me get more victory rush procs. Defensive stance, enraged regen and spacegoat racial are all really nice :D

Ohdontmindme @ Sargeras - Community - World of Warcraft
 
Skrubform said:
what do you honestly see in every game you've been in at 39 so far? everybody meets mid while a druid goes stealth to flag(albeit alliance has i think 1 fc druid so usually our fc is whoever has highest health willing to do it)

once the druid has the flag they basically run like retards straight through the middle of everybody fighting because who cares if dps gets on them they just shift/displacer forward to heals and voila now you have the "lets wait for 6 stacks" dance until a return/cap and rinse and repeat. If you think there is ANY different gameplay going on then you clearly just don't actually pay attention in bgs.

If i can tell you EXACTLY how a bg will play out every time then something is boring about that meta and needs some spice added to it. I'm not saying ban druids either but the meta this game has turned into for wsg is stale at best. It is sad but unfortunately thats what the game is now.

Selaya I've abided by that "game theory" as well but at a point the game needs to be enjoyable for not only high end competition but also the average player so as to garner continued growth or sustainability for the bracket. If all people do is play the most OP/the same strategy then people will get bored and leave. Why do you think brackets have died in the past? It isn't JUST because of blizzard changes, it is in part also due to people getting bored of doing the SAME thing over and over. I know of at least 30 twinks that quit for that very reason...


on the point of the actual topic though, One of my favorite fc's was always a paladin. Toastage on pali was always a beast if anybody remembers that guy haha
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If you would but have understood everything, you`d agree that a RDruid FC ban would meet all the criterias outlined by Sirlin.
 
Allybeboba said:
No no... I did no state that that is all there will ever be. I stated Druids have been FCs for years. It is not as if this is anything new. All other brackets deal with it just fine and have devised strategies in dealing with Druid FCs. It is just a matter of doing it in this bracket as well.
The solution many people here is if they don't like it or they can't accomplish it then it must be (A) banned (B) cheating (C) Both.
Many here just don't want to take the time to devise a real strategy against a real competitive team. If they did, they would be playing end game. Instead, people want to make restrictions that suit their needs. Unfortunately that leads to culling down of players.

No one here has mentioned the $100,000 tournament today.
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Many people have already stated this isn't a thread discussing banning rdruid fc's, nor is it about countering them.
This thread is a discussion about a break from the meta.
It feels like you didn't read all of the OP. Because you keep coming back to, "You guys just want to ban Rdruids".
If you had read the OP you'd have seen that that was not the intention of this thread.

"I'm not asking for rdruid fcs to be banned, just maybe some testing or thought in general." - OP
 
what if we banned all fcs!
and banned anyone leaving their own base
and banned all weps
and banned mounts
and banned typing in game
and banned banning things
 
I feel like in pugs this is can be a issue because people don't work well enough together to stop the walsing by.

In premades this is definitely not need to be addressed. I remember when we real ID'ed JCM our rogue and hunter was able to stop the FC from even reaching ramp. It's just about communicating how to stop the EFC before he even has a chance to cross. And if a rogue hunter cannot do it for what ever reason. The rogue can line up CC for dayz so the team can get into position to finish the EFC before he even crosses.

I think as the meta is, rdruids are 100% needed, even in pugs. Just pugs need to adapt better in how to stop EFC. No point trying to switch druids when the druid FC when they going to be used in the TC. People need to learn how to stop EFC better.
 
This is interesting to think about for sure. I completely agree that the meta of CTF maps has become incredibly stale due to the midfight strat and druids being as slippery as they are. It's to the point where WSG and TP are honestly extremely boring to play for me, and I used to love playing WSG. I can only really tolerate 3-4 games on queue nights before I log out. However I think that problem is caused way more by the current meta as opposed to druid fcs.

Obviously rdruids are the best fcs by far, but even if they were banned and we forced people to use other fcs, im not sure a whole lot would change regardless. The strategies to get the flag might change slightly and teams will probably need to provide more support on flag picks, but at the end of the day controlling midfield will always provide your team with a massive advantage in flag play, and there is literally no way to play around it.

If one team wants to play mid, unfortunately you're playing mid too. Offense/defense strategies and any other form of splitting up your team loses every time to a team running around with everyone together the whole game. It's simple, just all about having the numbers. To an extent, turtling in your own base once you actually get the flag somewhat "counters" a good mid team by forcing them to split a bit of their team up (at least 1 healer with fc) but I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that turtling is even more boring.

Anyway, without a druid fc, the team that wins the initial mid clash has the freedom to just collapse their entire team on the opposing teams fc (and you'll know exactly where he is because he can't stealth) after both teams pick, and this is the reason why currently a druid is essential.

Mid fights are the cancer that is ruining CTF maps, but unfortunately I can't really think of anything reasonable to get rid of them somehow. You can't just tell people not to fight in mid or something.
 
I myself can't really see any way in which tweaking rules could alter the mid field meta. Allowing more stealthies on teams could give a team with no mid presence a chance but do you really want a game with 4 stealthies that instantly take a collective poop on your fc ? It's definatly something I enjoy thinking about ( I could talk meta and comp strats all day long ) but I really have a hard time seeing a way around the mid field . In order for te split comp to work you would have to have a field or terrain that allows 5 people to make it safely past 10 ppl . That just isn't very easy atm .
 
Selaya said:
If you would but have understood everything, you`d agree that a RDruid FC ban would meet all the criterias outlined by Sirlin.
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nobody said ban fc druids. clearly you are the one having issues with reading comprehension. I am willing to bet I have quite a bit more high end comp experience behind me than 98% of TI in its entirety so I know game theory pretty well.

I agree with it when it comes to playing competitively however this is a different issue when it is a determining factor of whether a bracket actually exists or not due to the "FUN" aspect of it. If people dont enjoy playing 39's then the bracket ceases to exist in its entirety. The whole "play to win at all costs" and "dont ban things" no longer applies as concretely as it normally would. When there is a community that can keep things going then yes by all means everything should play like it is. Look at 20-29 bracket due to F2P's. The bracket has really no way of dying out because of lvl 20's so there is no point in doing anything about "pug" play in terms of bans/exclusions etc. Wargames is up to whoever is doing them whatever they agree on. But 39, can die literally today if roughly 10 people just up and stopped playing(maybe a slight # change but i think you get the idea) If making adjustments to meta/gameplay/skills/classes whatever encourages a higher enjoyment of the game for a larger amount of players increasing the playerbase and the quality of those games then it should be implemented.

I don't understand how this is hard to comprehend, but then again.. not everybody was in line when common sense was handed out.



** Sadly I agree that the meta has formed into something that will be extremely hard to change because zerg play is just too strong** Cool idea to think about though having different diverse fcs/classes in game.
 
anatomyx said:
This is interesting to think about for sure. I completely agree that the meta of CTF maps has become incredibly stale due to the midfight strat and druids being as slippery as they are. It's to the point where WSG and TP are honestly extremely boring to play for me, and I used to love playing WSG. I can only really tolerate 3-4 games on queue nights before I log out. However I think that problem is caused way more by the current meta as opposed to druid fcs.

Obviously rdruids are the best fcs by far, but even if they were banned and we forced people to use other fcs, im not sure a whole lot would change regardless. The strategies to get the flag might change slightly and teams will probably need to provide more support on flag picks, but at the end of the day controlling midfield will always provide your team with a massive advantage in flag play, and there is literally no way to play around it.

If one team wants to play mid, unfortunately you're playing mid too. Offense/defense strategies and any other form of splitting up your team loses every time to a team running around with everyone together the whole game. It's simple, just all about having the numbers. To an extent, turtling in your own base once you actually get the flag somewhat "counters" a good mid team by forcing them to split a bit of their team up (at least 1 healer with fc) but I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that turtling is even more boring.

Anyway, without a druid fc, the team that wins the initial mid clash has the freedom to just collapse their entire team on the opposing teams fc (and you'll know exactly where he is because he can't stealth) after both teams pick, and this is the reason why currently a druid is essential.

Mid fights are the cancer that is ruining CTF maps, but unfortunately I can't really think of anything reasonable to get rid of them somehow. You can't just tell people not to fight in mid or something.
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^^ This

Even if changed FC, the best strategy to win games is to control mid ultimately. Even if other teams goes in base, the team winning mid has the option on who to send in at what time to kill the FC. The meta would be different and games could be O and D if 6+ stacks did not slow the FC. Unfortunately blizz had to bring it that. Im out of ideas also.
 
stacks being eliminated probably would be the fix for it honestly. I feel like when stacks were implemented is when the meta did change but I wasn't here for that exact time frame I had stopped playing for a bit. I'm assuming it was due to games just stalling for so long in stalemates. also a reason for the time limit as well and the "last cap wins" retarded rule.
 
Skrubform said:
stacks being eliminated probably would be the fix for it honestly. I feel like when stacks were implemented is when the meta did change but I wasn't here for that exact time frame I had stopped playing for a bit. I'm assuming it was due to games just stalling for so long in stalemates. also a reason for the time limit as well and the "last cap wins" retarded rule.
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I disagree, if the FC had no extra damage taken and normal movement speed, he'd be almost unkillable if the defensive team know what they are doing.

What i'm saying is just to remove the slowing aspect of the stacks. Games would be ALLOT interesting then.
 
Excellent rightups and points made all around. Especially [MENTION=13290]anatomyx[/MENTION].

In my mind's eye, I have a vision of 1-2 people on each side defending, forcing a smaller force to commit to mid, not to mention the escort needed to get past the defenders. Would lead to a smaller force clashing in mid altogether, with other skirmishes happening across the map in tandem as both teams jock for advantageous postion. The team able to

1. thwart enemy defenders
2. win an advantageous midfield situation
3. delay/deny a flag pick

would win the cap.

But, as it's been said, what's to stop it from just being a 9man zerg taking mid by storm, then eradicating the defenders, then swooping back around as 10 to kill EFC?
It sounds slightly better to me than the current 8-9v9 from start to finish while FCs dance around the sides of the map and sit waiting.... but not by enough to really consider.

Do you think midstrat evolved around the need to be in a more dominant position to kill druid fcs, or rdruid fcs are just the one tailormade exception of something that CAN get past midstrat?
 
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