Who would love to do 10v10s?

[Jadyne]

I've seen some threads about this, and a lot of people trashing premades, mostly because they only roll pugs.

So I have a simple question, and a more complicated question:

1. If you could participate in 10v10 team matches with ground rules making things fair enough to be competitive, would you? (Poll)

2. What would those ground rules be? (Post below)

My thought was limiting number of certain classes, then limiting use of unusually annoying to farm consumables. Sure it's fun to go all out on both sides, but it makes premades a lot more rare if both sides have to farm for weeks in order to be prepared enough. So if you take care of that, I bet a TON of people would love to participate in true team fights. They just don't believe it's possible to do them any more.

 

[The Saint]

with the current player base? i'd rather be circumcised with chop stick.

 

[Khaos]

The problem is that alot of players would only want to play with certain players. Real ID premades use to happen and they were alot of fun but it seemed that only select people were invited and if those players didnt show then they didnt happen or someone tried to find a replacement

 

[Jadyne]

The problem is that alot of players would only want to play with certain players. Real ID premades use to happen and they were alot of fun but it seemed that only select people were invited and if those players didnt show then they didnt happen or someone tried to find a replacement

I think that will always be a problem. The only way to deal with it is to get people forming groups and teams that enjoy working together. I think that's where the whole "Peace, Love, and Understanding" concept is most useful. The more people who enjoy each other's company, the easier it is for them to play together and group up. It honestly seems like there's so few twink guilds on retail now that it's almost hopeless.

But if I'm right in my feeling that there's a large number of people interested, then it's worth discussing and getting to know people for.

 

[Shift]

I think it would be fun to take a group of players with no premade experience, and the ones who arent used for real premades and make them a top premade team. I think it would def take away some of the elitist attitude in this bracket.

Obviously they wouldn't be able to run with the big dogs at first but they could premade in pugs, and 5v5 one another then work their way up.. cool concept i thought i would throw out there.

 

[Mocha]

We've had premading rules limiting stealth classes, consumables, buffs, class limits etc and they all seem fair. Sadly there is never anything done about the bursty atmosphere to the bracket. It's nothing but 1 shots and LOH heals at the moment.

I would rather a match with no leg armors or something though. I don't know… Maybe it's "balanced" with how heals are right now as is… I know my pally physically can't go oom unless It's been about a minute of straight casting in combat. But the entire "every class can oneshot anything" and "every heal is a LOH" godmode isn't that enjoyable. There's no need for CC if you can drop any target in less than a second.

Less damage means you need to rely on CC in order to drop something. If we had significantly way less damage then the entire mid strat thing wouldn't be viable. Nobody enjoys a mid strat game and unfortunately there isn't much anyone can do to change that.

Scaling things towards TBC:
TBC: Average HP was about 1300-1500 hp. Stam stacked FCs had just under or at 3k hp. Heals would be about 300-600 hp (if I remember correctly) and go oom. CC was game changing. Little mobility. Rogues would pull 60 dps (basically equates to sinister strike crits for 110-130)

MOP: Average HP is about 1500-1700 hp. Stam stacked FCs have just under 4k hp. Heals are from about 700-1600 hp and cannot really go oom. No need for CC. Too much mobility. Rogues pull over 250 dps (basically equates to mutilates for 400-600 damage when factoring in enchants / poisons)

If we could reduce some of the burst either by stacking more towards stam and have it be significant enough (while still stressing the opposing faction's healers) that opponents would be unable to drop stam stacked targets, they would have no choice but to compensate by gearing more towards stam.

As of right now this would never work because
a) people would refuse to step down from big numbers
b) healers would still be able to heal through any dps

Healers would literally have to be a non healing spec and dps would have to lose all ap / sp enchantments and lose a few boas in order to make this bracket more enjoyable in my opinion.

Some people like the 0% - 100% gameplay because it's "quick" but it pretty much takes the strategy out of it and excitement for me.

Just my 2c.

 

[Dorigon]

My thought was limiting number of certain classes, then limiting use of unusually annoying to farm consumables.

So, in other words, your thought is to use rules that the US 19s bracket already uses in its 10v10's? Some innovative stuff here.

 

[Sketchbag]

^ yup this thread has already run its course..

 

[Trialdruid]

We've had premading rules limiting stealth classes, consumables, buffs, class limits etc and they all seem fair. Sadly there is never anything done about the bursty atmosphere to the bracket. It's nothing but 1 shots and LOH heals at the moment.

I would rather a match with no leg armors or something though. I don't know… Maybe it's "balanced" with how heals are right now as is… I know my pally physically can't go oom unless It's been about a minute of straight casting in combat. But the entire "every class can oneshot anything" and "every heal is a LOH" godmode isn't that enjoyable. There's no need for CC if you can drop any target in less than a second.

Less damage means you need to rely on CC in order to drop something. If we had significantly way less damage then the entire mid strat thing wouldn't be viable. Nobody enjoys a mid strat game and unfortunately there isn't much anyone can do to change that.

Scaling things towards TBC:
TBC: Average HP was about 1300-1500 hp. Stam stacked FCs had just under or at 3k hp. Heals would be about 300-600 hp (if I remember correctly) and go oom. CC was game changing. Little mobility. Rogues would pull 60 dps (basically equates to sinister strike crits for 110-130)

MOP: Average HP is about 1500-1700 hp. Stam stacked FCs have just under 4k hp. Heals are from about 700-1600 hp and cannot really go oom. No need for CC. Too much mobility. Rogues pull over 250 dps (basically equates to mutilates for 400-600 damage when factoring in enchants / poisons)

If we could reduce some of the burst either by stacking more towards stam and have it be significant enough (while still stressing the opposing faction's healers) that opponents would be unable to drop stam stacked targets, they would have no choice but to compensate by gearing more towards stam.

As of right now this would never work because
a) people would refuse to step down from big numbers
b) healers would still be able to heal through any dps

Healers would literally have to be a non healing spec and dps would have to lose all ap / sp enchantments and lose a few boas in order to make this bracket more enjoyable in my opinion.

Some people like the 0% - 100% gameplay because it's "quick" but it pretty much takes the strategy out of it and excitement for me.

Just my 2c.

I really liked tbc and wrath 'cause healing used to be more fun, prolly not more challenging but definetely somehow way more fun, I am just really not digging the healers not ever going to OOM(even though it was worse in release) but the mana reg is way too high or spell costs way too low and heal values way too big and critting way too often (for example regrowth has passively increased crit chance etc shit)
Also I don't understand why blizzard hates melee classes, nowadays melees have near to no utility compared to wrath and it is really sad considering how they kept buffing ranged damage in the last patches

 

[Jadyne]

So, in other words, your thought is to use rules that the US 19s bracket already uses in its 10v10's? Some innovative stuff here.

Yeah, I know I was stating the obvious. But I'm used to 39s and WotLK, where you really didn't have to worry about people farming magic dust, because people cared more about the games than the winning.

 

[Mocha]

I really liked tbc and wrath 'cause healing used to be more fun, prolly not more challenging but definetely somehow way more fun, I am just really not digging the healers not ever going to OOM(even though it was worse in release) but the mana reg is way too high or spell costs way too low and heal values way too big and critting way too often (for example regrowth has passively increased crit chance etc shit)
Also I don't understand why blizzard hates melee classes, nowadays melees have near to no utility compared to wrath and it is really sad considering how they kept buffing ranged damage in the last patches

Yeah that was probably one of my favorite things about TBC / WOTLK. How Ranged dps was really only just hunters. Mages were frost for CC, locks were just dot bots. Melee was useful and a 1v1 between melee felt like a game of battle ship. Not to mention many classes could fc. Early on Mage fcs with cloth gloves of the monkey were bis (agility for the extra bonus to dodge)

 

[Trialdruid]

Yeah that was probably one of my favorite things about TBC / WOTLK. How Ranged dps was really only just hunters. Mages were frost for CC, locks were just dot bots. Melee was useful and a 1v1 between melee felt like a game of battle ship. Not to mention many classes could fc. Early on Mage fcs with cloth gloves of the monkey were bis (agility for the extra bonus to dodge)

blizz really trying the extremes here to find balance, first cata burst and now mop heals o_o


EDIT: also liked the whole wearing down your opponent's mana and non-mana users alike, instead of nowadays pressing 1 buttom and screaming "RNG!RNG!RNG!RNGS YES! GOD! CRIT! KILL! DAMN THAT WAS SOME SKILLED PLAY RIGHT THERE"

 

[Jadyne]

Yeah that was probably one of my favorite things about TBC / WOTLK. How Ranged dps was really only just hunters. Mages were frost for CC, locks were just dot bots. Melee was useful and a 1v1 between melee felt like a game of battle ship. Not to mention many classes could fc. Early on Mage fcs with cloth gloves of the monkey were bis (agility for the extra bonus to dodge)

Okay, so if MoP is really that bad for strategy, and TBC/WotLK was a lot better... Meh, fine, I'll say it: why not do premades on WotLK?

Say 20 people replied "yes" to this poll. Or say 30 did. It's been up for a few hours, and it's above 10 already. If out of however many people interested, you found 20 interested enough to roll new characters, you could roll two teams on a private WotLK server, and do 10v10s. It'd take 2 weeks at max to gear up, and then you could just schedule matches every week. How tough would that be to pull off?

 

[Dorigon]

Yeah, I know I was stating the obvious. But I'm used to 39s and WotLK, where you really didn't have to worry about people farming magic dust, because people cared more about the games than the winning.

Yea, we know, you mention 39s and WotLK in at least half of the posts you make.

Just saying, 19s premades already have class and consumable restrictions in the NA region.

Edit: so this is a thinly veiled attempt to further weaken the 19s bracket by getting people to reroll on some private server.

 

[Mocha]

Okay, so if MoP is really that bad for strategy, and TBC/WotLK was a lot better... Meh, fine, I'll say it: why not do premades on WotLK?

Say 20 people replied "yes" to this poll. Or say 30 did. It's been up for a few hours, and it's above 10 already. If out of however many people interested, you found 20 interested enough to roll new characters, you could roll two teams on a private WotLK server, and do 10v10s. It'd take 2 weeks at max to gear up, and then you could just schedule matches every week. How tough would that be to pull off?

I personally am not huge on private servers because it's like learning how to play 2 separate classes at different times.

Idk. I played Hamcake and I just remembered how many annoying things there were with combat back then. Like it was basically stop motion and combat now feels so smooth to me.

Then you factor in the concept of any progress made doesn't count for anything at all. I was always tempted to twink on molten but basically got annoyed at the fact that I didn't have the resources to twink.

I understand that it's just for premades but at that point it's 2 completely different games and there would be no reason to even have a 19 on retail because you'd have to spend so long to get used to the gameplay of wotlk or tbc or w/e

Just my opinion on that. Not sure if anyone agrees or what. I miss how twinking was then (don't get me wrong) but it was also a huge pain in the @$$ and there are some aspects to the game today that are HUGE improvements.

 

[Caulfield]

I think that will always be a problem. The only way to deal with it is to get people forming groups and teams that enjoy working together.

I believe this is called a guild.

 

[Jadyne]

I personally am not huge on private servers because it's like learning how to play 2 separate classes at different times.

Idk. I played Hamcake and I just remembered how many annoying things there were with combat back then. Like it was basically stop motion and combat now feels so smooth to me.

Then you factor in the concept of any progress made doesn't count for anything at all. I was always tempted to twink on molten but basically got annoyed at the fact that I didn't have the resources to twink.

I understand that it's just for premades but at that point it's 2 completely different games and there would be no reason to even have a 19 on retail because you'd have to spend so long to get used to the gameplay of wotlk or tbc or w/e

Just my opinion on that. Not sure if anyone agrees or what. I miss how twinking was then (don't get me wrong) but it was also a huge pain in the @$$ and there are some aspects to the game today that are HUGE improvements.

Was Hamcake that laggy? I never got to play on it, but Molten's pretty smooth. Not perfect, but it's like the difference between 20 fps and 200 fps imo.

Twinking alone on any server is a pain, which is why my friends, guildies, and I set up infrastructure for building twinks on Molten, but let's set that aside for now. This isn't supposed to be a Molten recruitment thread.

Different gameplay, persistence, and the real improvements to the game since then - those are the real issues aren't they? Playing a twink on retail and playing a twink on an earlier patch really is like playing two different classes. Then if you play on a small private server like HCL, who knows when the server might go down and you will have lost all your time played on that toon? I don't know too well what has really been objectively improved in WoW since WotLK, but I imagine it's things like cross-server mechanics, realid, and things like that.

I suspect that Blizzard vs Private server will need to be a separate discussion on a new thread. So maybe it would be best to just set aside those issues for now? I'm still curious how many people miss or would like to try real 10v10 matches if they had the chance.

 

[Jadyne]

I believe this is called a guild.

I concur. How many of those are still around you think? Because I remember there being at least a dozen per battlegroup back in WotLK...

 

[Jadyne]

Yea, we know, you mention 39s and WotLK in at least half of the posts you make.

Just saying, 19s premades already have class and consumable restrictions in the NA region.

Edit: so this is a thinly veiled attempt to further weaken the 19s bracket by getting people to reroll on some private server.

Lol, nah. This was a fact-finding mission. Tilt made me realize that I need to spend some more time listening (among other things) before I start jumping to conclusions that people would find insulting. If you're looking for something to accuse of poaching, I suggest you read my guild recruitment thread for 19s. And I already said in another thread you were reading that I believe that strengthening the community here will help strengthen my community, even if they don't overlap. I do have a number of guildies who play on retail still, though. I'd rather they played with me all the time ofc, but it's their choice, and it works pretty well.

 

[Ridwane]

We've had premading rules limiting stealth classes, consumables, buffs, class limits etc and they all seem fair. Sadly there is never anything done about the bursty atmosphere to the bracket. It's nothing but 1 shots and LOH heals at the moment.

I would rather a match with no leg armors or something though. I don't know… Maybe it's "balanced" with how heals are right now as is… I know my pally physically can't go oom unless It's been about a minute of straight casting in combat. But the entire "every class can oneshot anything" and "every heal is a LOH" godmode isn't that enjoyable. There's no need for CC if you can drop any target in less than a second.

Less damage means you need to rely on CC in order to drop something. If we had significantly way less damage then the entire mid strat thing wouldn't be viable. Nobody enjoys a mid strat game and unfortunately there isn't much anyone can do to change that.

Scaling things towards TBC:
TBC: Average HP was about 1300-1500 hp. Stam stacked FCs had just under or at 3k hp. Heals would be about 300-600 hp (if I remember correctly) and go oom. CC was game changing. Little mobility. Rogues would pull 60 dps (basically equates to sinister strike crits for 110-130)

MOP: Average HP is about 1500-1700 hp. Stam stacked FCs have just under 4k hp. Heals are from about 700-1600 hp and cannot really go oom. No need for CC. Too much mobility. Rogues pull over 250 dps (basically equates to mutilates for 400-600 damage when factoring in enchants / poisons)

If we could reduce some of the burst either by stacking more towards stam and have it be significant enough (while still stressing the opposing faction's healers) that opponents would be unable to drop stam stacked targets, they would have no choice but to compensate by gearing more towards stam.

As of right now this would never work because
a) people would refuse to step down from big numbers
b) healers would still be able to heal through any dps

Healers would literally have to be a non healing spec and dps would have to lose all ap / sp enchantments and lose a few boas in order to make this bracket more enjoyable in my opinion.

Some people like the 0% - 100% gameplay because it's "quick" but it pretty much takes the strategy out of it and excitement for me.

Just my 2c.

Did you ever premade in MOP ? Because i haven't saw a rogue yet in a premade. Healers are balanced atm, beside Rdruid which have a sick crit rating on regrowth, his main spell.

Playing with no leg armor will look like 5.2 but with battle fatigue increased. The burst was already high if people syncing their burst. I agree this bracket don't really need CC's, which is sad but even in the past expansions CC's wasn't needed to set a kill.

Nobody force you to play mid, you can play O/D if you want, but it will cost you the lose.

CC's wasn't game changing in TBC if you played the right comp, but of course it help. The TBC scale was quite good i agree. I just think HP was a bit better than 1.3-1.5 k atleast for healers, casters, FC's who didn't stack spirit leg enchant i remember i had around 2 k.

Your numbers about MOP are wrong, average HP is still 1.9-2k, except for rogues, or people confident enough in their positionning to play with 1.7 k HP. Wake up please i don't know how much stam you did sacrifice to heal 700 for the lower value and 1600 as crit but did you ever heard about battle fatigue, ofc trying in orgrimmar on your whatever healing GF'ed class you have will not help, nor dueling someone in your group. You can't go oom ? Are you joking right ? Every priests / paladins / shaman who can properly heal will go oom, if you don't go oom it's surely because you guys don't heal 100 % of the time, maybe slow reflexes and stuffs. It doesn't matter how much damage do the rogue if your isn't retarded enough to peel for you.

Your point b) work only for good healers.

the truth is you didn't adapt enough and you the game is actually strategyless. But anyways it's just your 2 cents.

I really liked tbc and wrath 'cause healing used to be more fun, prolly not more challenging but definetely somehow way more fun, I am just really not digging the healers not ever going to OOM(even though it was worse in release) but the mana reg is way too high or spell costs way too low and heal values way too big and critting way too often (for example regrowth has passively increased crit chance etc shit)
Also I don't understand why blizzard hates melee classes, nowadays melees have near to no utility compared to wrath and it is really sad considering how they kept buffing ranged damage in the last patches

You are right TBC / WOTLK was way better, going oom, can drink, mana cost quite good scale, no real passive stats, no big numbers (it's actually the same numbers atm it's just back in the day it was a 2.5 sec cast and now it's 1.5 or less with haste).

Blizzard do not hate melee class, they fix stuffs for endgame balance, not for twink that they don't even care.

with the current player base? i'd rather be circumcised with chop stick.

We can conclude you already did it, since you are no longer in the current player base.