Rollop
Legend
I don't know if you're trolling or sincere. Either way that's pretty funny. As if MoP hasnt been in favor of Horde players. As if you aren't carried in almost every BG by 24s. As if your pug comps don't typically consist of 4+ healers, while your premades consist of 5+ healers sprinkled with 24s on top. As if alliance pugs werent full of jajas, no healers, and no 24s. Choo so silly *ruffles your hair*
As for this thread, everyone should just hug it out. Lets turn this thread into a support group for all those hurt butts
Kincaide
Legend
Holy crap, this thread went crazy while I slept. There is much too much in-fighting for me to possibly try to reply t it all, so I'm going to just ignore all the quasi-@posts, and jump back to trying to address the original topic.
As I read through this thread, a unifying idea occurred to me that I think explains pretty much all the points of view stated in this thread, and that is this: People premade so that they can be assured that there will be at least a few other people in the battleground who play the same way, and with the same goal, as they have. That holds true whatever your intent is, without passing judgement on that intent. You want to play objectively and cap flags, you gather up friends you know will play objectively and cap flags. You want to GY farm for honor, you gather up friends whose intentions are the same. As [MENTION=21833]The[/MENTION]_Saint pointed out (in so many words), everyone's intentions are their own, and while some people may not -like- other people's intentions, there's no way to say that the intention is "invalid" because hey, free country.
Now there are a few caveats to this that I feel I have to add here. One, just because people group together to pursue the same intent, does not prescribe what that intent is. This goes back to what Lil was saying... I disagree that one can automatically say that if someone is premading, then automatically they are premading to faceroll. Perhaps we need some clarification of terms here, because to me "faceroll" means creating a situation (through class choice or using enchants / scrolls that 90% of the bracket doesn't have access to) where winning is easy and inevitable and domination of the game is mostly assured. As I said before, I premade all the time, and I assure you, none of us thinks for a moment that we're going to have an easy game. This bracket is competitive enough even without 24s, because there are so many high-quality F2Ps here. During CTA, the premades I was in lost more often that we won, and take my word for it, we know what we're doing. Premading does not assure an easy win by any stretch of the imagination at all.
And second, something that no one's really addressed in this thread yet: Just because someone is running a group with other people on their server does not mean they have the unity of intent I mentioned above at all. Especially for those who play on the big Wal-Mart servers like Aerie Peak, you often don't even really know the people you're queueing with. It's nice to have people in your BG that you can kind of hope aren't going to totally screw you over and start screaming at you since they're from the same server and have at least a little reason to put up with each other, but, that does not at all mean that those ream-mates have the same intentions or playstyles. Sometimes being in a premade is no different from being in a PUG. In fact I'd say for many, this is the norm rather than the exception.
Even though it was a troll post that started this conversation, I think for a person like myself who truly tries to listen and relate to other people's points of view, I've probably come away from this with a greater tolerance and understanding for other people's playstyles, even including graveyard containment and queueing with 24s. I think everyone owes it to themselves and their bracket to at least pause a moment and ask themselves if we really have a right to say that our choices in our leisure activity are more "right" than someone else's.
Cheers and Peace.
(Edited to correct Sorry Saint I couldn't get your @-reference name right)
As I read through this thread, a unifying idea occurred to me that I think explains pretty much all the points of view stated in this thread, and that is this: People premade so that they can be assured that there will be at least a few other people in the battleground who play the same way, and with the same goal, as they have. That holds true whatever your intent is, without passing judgement on that intent. You want to play objectively and cap flags, you gather up friends you know will play objectively and cap flags. You want to GY farm for honor, you gather up friends whose intentions are the same. As [MENTION=21833]The[/MENTION]_Saint pointed out (in so many words), everyone's intentions are their own, and while some people may not -like- other people's intentions, there's no way to say that the intention is "invalid" because hey, free country.
Now there are a few caveats to this that I feel I have to add here. One, just because people group together to pursue the same intent, does not prescribe what that intent is. This goes back to what Lil was saying... I disagree that one can automatically say that if someone is premading, then automatically they are premading to faceroll. Perhaps we need some clarification of terms here, because to me "faceroll" means creating a situation (through class choice or using enchants / scrolls that 90% of the bracket doesn't have access to) where winning is easy and inevitable and domination of the game is mostly assured. As I said before, I premade all the time, and I assure you, none of us thinks for a moment that we're going to have an easy game. This bracket is competitive enough even without 24s, because there are so many high-quality F2Ps here. During CTA, the premades I was in lost more often that we won, and take my word for it, we know what we're doing. Premading does not assure an easy win by any stretch of the imagination at all.
And second, something that no one's really addressed in this thread yet: Just because someone is running a group with other people on their server does not mean they have the unity of intent I mentioned above at all. Especially for those who play on the big Wal-Mart servers like Aerie Peak, you often don't even really know the people you're queueing with. It's nice to have people in your BG that you can kind of hope aren't going to totally screw you over and start screaming at you since they're from the same server and have at least a little reason to put up with each other, but, that does not at all mean that those ream-mates have the same intentions or playstyles. Sometimes being in a premade is no different from being in a PUG. In fact I'd say for many, this is the norm rather than the exception.
Even though it was a troll post that started this conversation, I think for a person like myself who truly tries to listen and relate to other people's points of view, I've probably come away from this with a greater tolerance and understanding for other people's playstyles, even including graveyard containment and queueing with 24s. I think everyone owes it to themselves and their bracket to at least pause a moment and ask themselves if we really have a right to say that our choices in our leisure activity are more "right" than someone else's.
Cheers and Peace.
(Edited to correct Sorry Saint I couldn't get your @-reference name right)
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hairy
Legend
The people who think premading is bad obviously have never played a team sport (or even other things like being part of an orchestra!)
Rollop
Legend
True true, anytime i premade its typically for fun. OP is just throwing a tantrum i assume because he lost a game or 50. While i don't see anything wrong with premading i do think its a joke people compare this to pro sports, or even pro gaming sports. Completely different worlds. For one nobodies getting paid to compete, and 2, nobody is even watching. Just the people in this forum.
Klinda
Legend
Personally for me, I guess it's just a matter of what i'm looking for.
Since I rolled this pally in cata, I never premade at all.
Since MoP began, I've premaded several times with some good players who i consider good friends, and I've enjoyed it. It's not about facerolling as some claim, it's about enjoying the company of good friends and having fun in the gulch/ basin at the same time. Some people may premade to faceroll (looking at you alexstraza 24 premades) but some of us premade because we simply enjoy the company of our friends. Is it an added bonus that your friends may be more competent than the average pug you group into? Sure, but that doesn't mean anything.
Since I rolled this pally in cata, I never premade at all.
Since MoP began, I've premaded several times with some good players who i consider good friends, and I've enjoyed it. It's not about facerolling as some claim, it's about enjoying the company of good friends and having fun in the gulch/ basin at the same time. Some people may premade to faceroll (looking at you alexstraza 24 premades) but some of us premade because we simply enjoy the company of our friends. Is it an added bonus that your friends may be more competent than the average pug you group into? Sure, but that doesn't mean anything.
Jadyne
39 Evangelist
This is a fun thread.
Most people already addresses most of the good arguments (friends, MMO, etc), so I'll add a more unusual one: skill.
Some of us more or less mastered playing our twink solo years ago. Once you stop growing in that skill, some people like to keep growing, but they have to find another way to do it. Teamwork, and organizing a group are two skills that increase your effectiveness, but only in a premade. And they're skills that don't usually improve while you're soloing in pugs.
Most people already addresses most of the good arguments (friends, MMO, etc), so I'll add a more unusual one: skill.
Some of us more or less mastered playing our twink solo years ago. Once you stop growing in that skill, some people like to keep growing, but they have to find another way to do it. Teamwork, and organizing a group are two skills that increase your effectiveness, but only in a premade. And they're skills that don't usually improve while you're soloing in pugs.
hairy
Legend
Not comparing it to sports, but rather the values of teamwork and all that stuff that comes with it
Srs
Legend
I don't know if you're trolling or sincere. Either way that's pretty funny. As if MoP hasnt been in favor of Horde players. As if you aren't carried in almost every BG by 24s. As if your pug comps don't typically consist of 4+ healers, while your premades consist of 5+ healers sprinkled with 24s on top. As if alliance pugs werent full of jajas, no healers, and no 24s. Choo so silly *ruffles your hair*
As for this thread, everyone should just hug it out. Lets turn this thread into a support group for all those hurt butts
If you don't know me by now, you will never ever know me — I'm always srs.
It's all about perspective. Most everybody here runs BattlegroundTargets. One of the neat features of this addon is that it shows the true level of all your opponents. The default raid frames do not, and not everyone goes around inspecting all their teammates every game. Consequently, I think a lot of people are clueless of whom they are playing with, that is, they are playing with p2ps and don't know it.
Back in cata, and before everyone got scaled up to level 24, this wasn't an issue. You would see their ungodly HP, look and see that they were a 24, and you would know who you were playing with. Today, it's not so obvious. Everyone is the same level in BGs, and hardly anyone stacks stam over their primary stat, so now you have the case where p2ps might have less hp than even undergeared jajas. In light of this, and the ability to cross-realm group, it's easy to see why some people have no apparent idea that they've been carried.
Another thing. When one premades, you eliminate the randomness of the draw. One gets the myriad advantages of playing with people of your choosing, but on the flip-side, you also eliminate the chance of those slots being filled by either a p2p or a jaja — the choice to premade or not can be a double-edge sword. For the pugger, relative to a premade, you have a greater chance to get stuck herding jajas, but you also have a much greater chance of getting carried by another premade of your faction.
TL,DR: Grass is always greener. You've been carried and didn't know it.
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Rollop
Legend
I disagree about not being able to spot p2ps. Guild tags, guild looms, hp are good indicators. Even if the hp looks standard you could always inspect and see they've enchanted for something else instead. But i still believe Horde has far more 24s. Think about, they've rolled a 24 in the first place to win, why wouldnt they faction hop to the side that wins more as well. I'm not saying i havent been carried. I'm saying those instances are few and far between. That's just the reality of playing F2P alliance in 2014. It sucks but it is what it is. I like my character, and i can't bring myself to faction hop just for wins, ive been playing her since early cata. So as a result, i lose 9 our of 10 pugs. Which is totally fine, i just cant stand seeing Horde players whine about rough BGs. You whined all through cata and we had to listen to it. Now you whine even though your faction has been dominating for awhile now. I just don't get it. You've got a good thing going lol, smile and collect those hks and lolfaceroll the jajas.
Lil
SV huntard
You can't possibly believe this, can you..? If you take 5 f2ps regardless of faction who know what they are doing and communicate well and know their class there is a VERY low chance of losing. Idk when you premaded or what your premades consisted of but if you did 5 mans and lost the majority of your games I honestly don't know what to say.. Most of the time me and [MENTION=16866]Izac[/MENTION] is enough to completely sway the outcome of a game and we in noway make up for 5 people. There is really no reason to have a 5 person premade as you know before you even go into the q that 8/10 times you will have a easy mid derp in mid (or gy "contain") while our FC and heals runs through mid for yet another Warsong Expedience achievement for those newer toons. If you want to play with friends and want to do 5 mans why not run a dungeon? You'd get the same kind of effect and challenge from a move orientated npc in DM as you will that rogue/hunt/hpal/druid on D that your 5 man just blew up in efr. Why ruin a real persons game, over and over and over, when you could just kill a npc that gives the same challenge and no1 is effected.
Do I have the right to say constant premaders/gy farmers/wall abusers/scroll abusers/24 fotms (those people that had a hunt in cata then hpal in pre mop then spriest then now a druid are what I consider fotm 24s, not the person who randomly made a hunt in MoP and liked it and is still playing it) aka intentional griefers don't have the right to do so? Of course not.. This is a video game and I as well as no1 on this forum owns WoW or can tell other people how to play.
However, do I have the right to say I do not agree nor do I see how people who do the things I just named have any fun while they are ruining other peoples game intentionally? Damn right I do and damn right I will. If people gy farm or do 5 man premades 10 times a day ruining what little fun at the very least 50 random puggers on the other faction has each day they are griefers. If people fly 200 feet in the air or sit in a wall glitch that's los of everything every other day they are ruining the fun and competitiveness of all those people in that bg (INCLUDING those from their own faction.. I mean what's the fun of a win when your fc sits in a wall for 19 minutes).
This thread went to bickering pretty quickly and started having less valid debates and more personal arguments so I'm about done here however I will say one last thing. Whatever your intentions are when premading, whether you mean to or not, whether you want to or not, whether you even notice or give it one thought.. You are ruining the game for other people (in b4 smartass comment from hairy lawl hypocrite you main a huntard, ask yourself does my lone hunter honestly ruin the game for others NEARLY as much as a 5 mans?), your premades that you are doing to "bring competitiveness" in a bracket that is ruled by pugs are doing nothing but ruining the competitiveness for the majority of this bracket. Idc if you like me or hate me someone please to try and find one thing I said that isn't true, heck even if you are just reading this just try and read my quote and find anything that's wrong and I will gladly read your opinion (if it's a mature reply).
Other then that I will refer back to what I said in my first post.. Why premade this thread is asking? Because you have either accepted the fact that your bg you're about to do won't be a competitive game and don't care if you have an easy win or or you intentionally are making sure you will have an easy win, generally.
Annymous
Legend
Premade with two or three people. That's fine.
NOT nine other people (unless you personally know and talk to all nine of those players and are CLOSE friends with them, you're clearly facerolling if you're doing a ten man premade)
But premade for the company of friends and to have fun.
NOT nine other people (unless you personally know and talk to all nine of those players and are CLOSE friends with them, you're clearly facerolling if you're doing a ten man premade)
But premade for the company of friends and to have fun.
Sabzep
Legend
Mind you my experience is playing on a europe time on the US Servers and your mileage may vary. (The more I play in primetme the more 24s I see, but your Horde dominance that you cry about every second post is in no way comparable to the ali dominance in CATA. I have the stats to back up my claim.
Ali rogue Cata: 37 wins out of 51 AB
Horde Shaman mostly Cata: 64 wins out of 161 AB
Horde Hunter pure MoP: 52 win out of 91 AB
2nd stfu about every Horde Player liking to get carried by 24s. I don't.
monkeydoodoo
Legend
oh the drama...
Rollop
Legend
Then reroll, if you dont want to be carried. Also, there's no point in anecdotal evidence. I could say you ate 40 burgers daily back in cata, and now you only eat 30. How am i going to prove that. I'm not. And you're not going to either. But it doesnt really matter, and heres why, you're comparing numbers from an expansion that is done and over with to MoP, which is still far from over. I'm not saying it's wrong for you to be carried. I'm just saying, stop crying about "hard" games when you win far more than you lose.
Windbreaker
Legend
I honestly didn't read most of previous posts. I lost my rage about the inequity in the game a while back. It's just a game, play it anyway that is fun to you. nerf hunters
Sabzep
Legend
Im not crying about hard games. You are the one crying about horde players playing horde with a SLIGHT advantage.Whereas you used to have a tremendous advantage in gearing and battlegrounds at the cost of long queue times. I actually am slowly rolling aliance but i like to play different classes and it will take a while. In the meantime i continue to play my existing chars with firends i got to know and dont need to hear your bullshit when i and a lot of the old twinks chose horde for the fast queue and the challenge.
Those stats are anecdotal but should make the point that your 9 out of 10 is no where near true now but actually closer when you played in cata and didnt reroll even for the fast queues.