death of 19s

[saxxon]

was the moderation, u let our elite twinkers and drama causers move to the 24 bracket.. if there was still drama and some interest in premades that wouldn't have happened so quickly... congrats on killing one of the oldest running twink brackets.

the tight ass BS that has occurred in this part of twinkinfo is depressing, you let EU run full reign in the 15-19 section but US got absolutely locked down on posts not being able to say jack shit, its pretty obvious when everyone stopped wanting to use this section and going back a few pages on the forum shows exactly when the death occurred.

congrats for boosting the 20-24 bracket and murdering the greatest twink bracket of all time, this section is an absolute grave yard.

 

[Mesikämmen]

Hey, you're always welcome to reroll on EU

 

[Whatgoesup]

I think it's very important that you make your own decision about what you are. Therefore you're responsible for your actions, so you don't blame other people.
- Prince William

Life takes its path and sometimes there are people to blame. Of course there are bad people in this world. Good, bad, it happens unfortunately. But in a way I think if there was more focus on the good, more good would happen.
- Andrea Corr

We all feel the urge to condemn ourselves out of guilt, to blame others for our misfortunes and to fantasize about total disaster.
- Deepak Chopra

When you blame yourself, you learn from it. If you blame someone else, you don't learn nothing, cause hey, it's not your fault, it's his fault, over there.
- Joe Strummer

 

[IhazBankz]

Sax has a point though, infractions being given out for next to nothing these days, warnings been given for stupid reasons, and you can see its happened to all the recent Eu threads, locked becuz of a little banter/discussion.

 

[Dorigon]

I think it's very important that you make your own decision about what you are. Therefore you're responsible for your actions, so you don't blame other people.
- Prince William

Life takes its path and sometimes there are people to blame. Of course there are bad people in this world. Good, bad, it happens unfortunately. But in a way I think if there was more focus on the good, more good would happen.
- Andrea Corr

We all feel the urge to condemn ourselves out of guilt, to blame others for our misfortunes and to fantasize about total disaster.
- Deepak Chopra

When you blame yourself, you learn from it. If you blame someone else, you don't learn nothing, cause hey, it's not your fault, it's his fault, over there.
- Joe Strummer

Hard to focus on the good when every thread to do so in has been locked.

 

[saxxon]

I think it's very important that you make your own decision about what you are. Therefore you're responsible for your actions, so you don't blame other people.
- Prince William

Life takes its path and sometimes there are people to blame. Of course there are bad people in this world. Good, bad, it happens unfortunately. But in a way I think if there was more focus on the good, more good would happen.
- Andrea Corr

We all feel the urge to condemn ourselves out of guilt, to blame others for our misfortunes and to fantasize about total disaster.
- Deepak Chopra

When you blame yourself, you learn from it. If you blame someone else, you don't learn nothing, cause hey, it's not your fault, it's his fault, over there.
- Joe Strummer

why would I not call out who's ruining my favorite bracket? when its clearly hindered the state of 19s for months? years i've spent taking care of this bracket organizing migrations etc, and you act like i'm going to sit back and allow corruption to ruin a bracket i truly love? that's like if the government was murdering people and I got arrested for "whistle blowing".

the competitiveness of the bracket is dead because the trash talking and general other crap was pretty much killed on the forums, the mods made the 19 bracket a CASUAL friendly bracket even though it has never been that. By muting every thing that's not politically correct you're murdering this bracket. now the competitive players have moved onto 20-24 following the 19 bracket going stiff as fuck on the forums. I dont wanna blame Mocha because his moderation hasn't been that bad, but it put off MANY people from posting in this bracket and it DID overall have an effect on the bracket in game.

if you cannot cater to the people that make the bracket live ( the small niche of players who are fanatics about the bracket and bring people into it like no mod on this forum could do) then it's going to die, the mods have driven a fang straight through a the heart of US 19s.

 

[Dramatized]

why would I not call out who's ruining my favorite bracket? when its clearly hindered the state of 19s for months? years i've spent taking care of this bracket organizing migrations etc, and you act like i'm going to sit back and allow corruption to ruin a bracket i truly love? that's like if the government was murdering people and I got arrested for "whistle blowing".

the competitiveness of the bracket is dead because the trash talking and general other crap was pretty much killed on the forums, the mods made the 19 bracket a CASUAL friendly bracket even though it has never been that. By muting every thing that's not politically correct you're murdering this bracket. now the competitive players have moved onto 20-24 following the 19 bracket going stiff as fuck on the forums. I dont wanna blame Mocha because his moderation hasn't been that bad, but it put off MANY people from posting in this bracket and it DID overall have an effect on the bracket in game.

if you cannot cater to the people that make the bracket live ( the small niche of players who are fanatics about the bracket and bring people into it like no mod on this forum could do) then it's going to die, the mods have driven a fang straight through a the heart of US 19s.

i may not be 100% right here, but the US bracket has been dead for 1-2 months? the "new" moderation has been going on for a week or two?

 

[saxxon]

what a load of crock whatgoesup, if you cant address negativity then nothing is going to change, staying positive only helps so much. if you need to change shit you take a stand and try to change it

 

[saxxon]

i may not be 100% right here, but the US bracket has been dead for 1-2 months? the "new" moderation has been going on for a week or two?

i'm not saying it was whatgoesup, the moderation occurred 1-2 months ago. the newer moderators are merely enforcing the ideals of the other mods.

 

[Crystalpall]

why would I not call out who's ruining my favorite bracket? when its clearly hindered the state of 19s for months? years i've spent taking care of this bracket organizing migrations etc, and you act like i'm going to sit back and allow corruption to ruin a bracket i truly love? that's like if the government was murdering people and I got arrested for "whistle blowing".

the competitiveness of the bracket is dead because the trash talking and general other crap was pretty much killed on the forums, the mods made the 19 bracket a CASUAL friendly bracket even though it has never been that. By muting every thing that's not politically correct you're murdering this bracket. now the competitive players have moved onto 20-24 following the 19 bracket going stiff as fuck on the forums. I dont wanna blame Mocha because his moderation hasn't been that bad, but it put off MANY people from posting in this bracket and it DID overall have an effect on the bracket in game.

if you cannot cater to the people that make the bracket live ( the small niche of players who are fanatics about the bracket and bring people into it like no mod on this forum could do) then it's going to die, the mods have driven a fang straight through a the heart of US 19s.

I think That Your posts are a little too [MENTION=6815]Dramatized[/MENTION] (sorry couldn't help it)

On topic now. Not only 19s are suffering because of that. Increase in 24s is slowly killing F2Ps and I think it's safe to assume that 19s and F2Ps are the biggest, most popular twinking brackets.

 

[Dramatized]

i'm not saying it was whatgoesup, the moderation occurred 1-2 months ago. the newer moderators are merely enforcing the ideals of the other mods.

that makes more sense but i still fail to see any significant change in moderation 1-2 months until now compared to before that. hasnt mocha been the only mod who cleaned up in the 19s? and he did it like once a week (and mainly threads he was personally involved in for that matter)..livingforce popped in every month to give a "hey guys be friendly" but thats it i think

 

[saxxon]

the mocha occurrence killed the COMPETITIVE aspect of 19s on the spot and brought along the ideal of there being no competitiveness, trash talk or anything and made it into a casual bracket. there was huge threads that had nearly all there posts deleted for speaking out on how they felt on the changes happening. a lot of hard core competitive players gave up after having there posts constantly deleted and moved to the 20-24 bracket, it had a huge effect on US 19s but no one thought it would at the time.. new patch came and people thought hey it'll start back up again soon, which it hasn't even been close to doing.

 

[Mesikämmen]

So wait what, there can't be competition without people constantly flaming/insulting/griefing/trolling/etc each other?

 

[Zatox]

Competitve, friendly trash talk is one thing, but these members you speak of are complete and total douche bags. By all means, I hope you can convince them to come back to the 19s, because I don't want the cancer that killed your bracket.

 

[Whatgoesup]

what a load of crock whatgoesup, if you cant address negativity then nothing is going to change, staying positive only helps so much. if you need to change shit you take a stand and try to change it

I understand your frustration, and I see why you are angry. You have every right to be angry. The thing is, the negativity right now in 19's, is because all people do is bash and bash. You get pops, by motivivating people to play. 19's has always been elitist, but most of the elitists have left some time ago. People leaving = bracket dying. And why are people leaving? Because all people do is cry and cry about how patches and expansions ruin everything, etc, etc. If you are negative, you're going to influence other and make them feel the same way. So instead of focussing of the problem, and trying to tackle it, people start bashing mods for following the CoC. Yes, we have been strict, I am not denying that. We have been notified, as I stated before, to give infractions more cautiously, which we will. However, the activity of moderators before us three came, was somewhat low. Which was why they were looking for three moderators. People are just not used to being moderated. So it seems like we're really overmoderating. Is there overmoderation going on at the moment? Yes, we are sitting against the line of overmoderation. We have noticed it, we have understood it and we will back off a little. Now, as for how to boost activity, in my opinion, is by motivating people to play again. Someone needs to step up and try to get things going again. Sputnick, although many dislike him, has boosted activity significantly. Also, I believe 19 twinking has died now, like, 4-5x on each side? 19's will never truly die, it will always come back. And everyone needs to hold on to that.

This is purely my opinion, I am not writing this because I am a mod. This is my 2cents. I am open to discussion, as always. I will say, that I, personally, will be less repressing on posts and threads. However people, just abide by the CoC. Drama? Why not. Drama doesn't have to mean breaching CoC.

Sincerely,
Whatgoesup

 

[saxxon]

drama keeps people interested. i've played 19s for 5 or 6 years now and the ONLY thing that draws people in and gets people talking is the drama and the competition so yes that aspect of it is incredibly important. ( I am speaking in respect to US 19s, dunno how the fairly land EU warsong works)

whether you dislike it or not its a huge part of 19s and has PROVEN to be effective for making people play and remain interested. its apart of the brackets culture if i dear say it. the greatest sports rivalry's and challenges all came from trash talk and drama its just human nature.

people like having a story to bite there teeth into its what makes WoW so different from other games because of the history and rivalry's of guilds and players in them

 

[Dramatized]

the mocha occurrence killed the COMPETITIVE aspect of 19s on the spot and brought along the ideal of there being no competitiveness, trash talk or anything and made it into a casual bracket. there was huge threads that had nearly all there posts deleted for speaking out on how they felt on the changes happening. a lot of hard core competitive players gave up after having there posts constantly deleted and moved to the 20-24 bracket, it had a huge effect on US 19s but no one thought it would at the time.. new patch came and people thought hey it'll start back up again soon, which it hasn't even been close to doing.

yeah i didnt like mochas moderation any more than the next guy (i think he has brought great harm upon the bracket also *especially* by his never-ending essays with shifting colors). but it really feels as though you're trying to find a spacegoat like there werent any other factors at all

also there is a rlly thin line between competative-boosting talk and flaming/insulting/harassing..

 

[saxxon]

This is purely my opinion, I am not writing this because I am a mod. This is my 2cents. I am open to discussion, as always. I will say, that I, personally, will be less repressing on posts and threads. However people, just abide by the CoC. Drama? Why not. Drama doesn't have to mean breaching CoC.

Sincerely,
Whatgoesup

yet many people gained infractions and gave up on posting in this section because of some mods personal issues with what they were saying, despite no breaking of the CoC a lot of shifty shit went down by the mods, it pushed people away from this bracket and its truly sad, and it's hard to see if they'l come back

 

[saxxon]

yeah i didnt like mochas moderation any more than the next guy (i think he has brought great harm upon the bracket also *especially* by his never-ending essays with shifting colors). but it really feels as though you're trying to find a spacegoat like there werent any other factors at all

also there is a rlly thin line between competative-boosting talk and flaming/insulting/harassing..

i agree with you i dont like straight out flaming but there is a line where you can use the perfect amount, which you can't even really do here much anymore, its a fruit cake shop in this section now everything's really politically correct and seems more catered to casual players.

it's true that it's not exclusively because of the moderation there are plenty of other factors that account for it, but at the time that moderation was enforced was the WORST possible time the bracket could receive it, we were going into a fresh patch and people needed to stay interested, it truly put people off bothering with this bracket and it's going to be hard to bring a lot of those players back.

 

[Whatgoesup]

yet many people gained infractions and gave up on posting in this section because of some mods personal issues with what they were saying, despite no breaking of the CoC a lot of shifty shit went down by the mods, it pushed people away from this bracket and its truly sad

I think this happened before I, and the other two, became moderators. Let me say here and now, that I would not condone any moderator giving out infractions just because they dislike a person. That is bad. However, let me assure you that my infractions, my warnings, are completely unbiased and always have good reason. I know this might be hard to believe, which I understand. And if you, or anyone else, doesn't want to believe me, then that's fine. I can understand that people get sick of posting if they get targeted down, but that is not the case, atleast, if it was happening in the past, it's not happening anymore. People need to come back, to twinking, to TI, to 19's. This, is hard. But certainly not impossible.

Anyways, I really like this discussion. Please continue.