PvP Balance.

[Razzerz]

Hello, I am not active on wow much anymore I log on once every couple of days to check things out and i noticed holy shock got a nerf according to forum posts, if this is true what is the current state of 70 ? if holy shock is nerfed we are half way to it being more balanced, I am sure the other fixes will happen in time, I tried stacking full pvp power on my rogue, i have not been able to test it yet, would it work?

Razzerzxox @ Bronzebeard - Game Guide - World of Warcraft

 

[Razzerz]

nvm getting 1 shotted by mages .

 

[odyne]

I have yet to see rogues experiment properly with specs and gems :-/ It's a shame really. I have a rogue myself but far from BiS (lacking roughly 7-8 gem slots) so i can't do much myself. I'm very curious how assassination performs (with burst of speed to stick targets)
Or combat for that matter. Seeing as someone posted the suggestion of rogues going more towards cc i'm curious what combat can do with it's 9 sec kidneys

 

[Friyn]

You're running with full PvE gear, what did you expect? Mages still deal a lot damage but many other classes got buffed quite a lot in a way or anything so it's fine.

 

[Razzerz]

if I were to use pvp gear i would do even less damage right now i cant get bubbles off a mage or 50% off any other class before im fucked anyway

 

[Vase]

I'm ROGUE and I have no intentions on bailing on the class cause its got a little harder.

I've only had chance to play around with sub spec so far, changing around gems and glyphs, spending a lot of gold. In brief this is my conclusion:

PvP Power doesn't do much for rogue, I have about 8/9% which is all you need IMO, AGILITY is still your main stat.

Even with only a few of PVP Items you can hit a nice resi percent, your damage avoiding abilities also come from talents and glyphs, so don't stack resi, there's no need.

I personally am wearing the pvp helm and gloves neck and wrist, its better to have the extra resil as apposed to the little bit extra AP the PvE gear gives you, I even sacrificed some AGI gems for Res because 2.8k AP is enough for me to do what I require as a rogue, which is more keeping pressure on certain healers and CCing, rogue isn't about racking up the KBs anymore, sorry.

I've specced 3/1/3/1.

Shadowfocus: Abilities no longer cost energy when stealthed. Free opener, leaving all that energy for me to plow into what ever I'm doing. I didn't choose Subterfuge because I personally think its more a 'bag of tricks' talent and isn't quite as powerful as a free opener.

Deadly Throw: Movement speed reduced by 50%, if used with 5 combo points a SIX SECOND SILENCE. (Imagine garrote silence, full kidney shot, then 5 combo deadly throw silence, thats a healer locked down for 16.5 seconds) I didn't choose Combat Readiness because I have always found a slow and silence better use for a rogue than damage reducers, and we have evasion and feint and if you are smart you will choose Preparation so you can use it twice if you need.

Elusiveness: Spec it, this is one spell you will cast a lot, hence why you don't need to stack resi, never go under 2.5k ap as you can and use Feint when required, keep Recuperate up, survive.

Preparation: Choosing this one has made a few rogue friends of mine raise an eyebrow, I personally think the amount of CC and survivability goes though the roof with Preparation, the pros and cons of giving up Step are complicated, I've gone with Preparation as I think it has more benefits. I didn't choose Burst of Speed because... just no.

Glyphs, Garrote Silence Glyph because its essential, bread and butter for rogues.

Gouge glyph, still playing around with what should be rogues second Glyph, I've been having massive fun running about gouging but I'll probably change it to Glyph of Cloak of Shadows, I like the idea of Pain Supression for rogues, plus is stacks with Feint which I have specced.

Final conclusion: I'm 95% happy with my gear, gemming and glyphing. Remember AGI is still the main stat. Please take a look at my rogue and see how I've tweaked everything around a bit, its really working for me.

Agility > PvP Resilience > 3% Melee Hit > PvP Power > Crit > Haste > Mastery > Expertise

 

[odyne]

I didn't choose Burst of Speed because... just no.

Am i the only one that see's potential in this? You do realise your healer can only clean you once every 8 seconds, meaning against any mage team you're gonna be sitting in slows. 60 Energy might seem like alot but it really isn't when you consider the alternative is sitting energy capped in a nova :-/

 

[Friyn]

Am i the only one that see's potential in this? You do realise your healer can only clean you once every 8 seconds, meaning against any mage team you're gonna be sitting in slows. 60 Energy might seem like alot but it really isn't when you consider the alternative is sitting energy capped in a nova :-/

This. I've been testing out all three BoS, Prepa and Step and I've found BoS to be the best for the same reason Odyne stated. When you're being kited or sitting in roots you have nothing but free energy. Rogues have pretty strong defensive CDs without preparation so you should be fine without it.

 

[Tim]

Holy shock got nerfed!

 

[Vase]

Am i the only one that see's potential in this? You do realise your healer can only clean you once every 8 seconds, meaning against any mage team you're gonna be sitting in slows. 60 Energy might seem like alot but it really isn't when you consider the alternative is sitting energy capped in a nova :-/

I didn't give it much thought, I simply find Prep vastly superior, two vanishes, sprint, dismantle, cloak of shadows, evasion would be great in hundreds of different scenarios, greater than just the Burst of Speed which would be handy in a handful of situation, I'm trying to be as versatile as possible in pvp

 

[Friyn]

But but but Reckful said BoS is best! Or was it Khuna? Can't remember.

 

[Vase]

Aight.

Spent 5-6 hours doing BGs and I'll admit that Burst of Speed is really great, I still don't need Step til arena comes back on though, thats a given.

I also tried assassination, its really really good for me because i have loads of hit, since poisons are being moved to the melee hit table, I was able to do a lot of damage..

Depending on the situation I would either open with cheap shot or garrote*, if I wanted to do some really nice burst damage I would actually open (from stealth) with Mutilate, its HIGH damage but also costs a lot of energy (55) but I'm specced to my first opener doesn't cost any energy, so from opening I'm able to do three Mutilates, get Slice and Dice up and get a Rupture up all in a very very short period of time, and not to mention Blindside procs like a motherfucker so there's loads of Dispatch spamming too for more dps. Dispatch is our replacement Backstab, but you don't need to be behind the target.

So basic base rotation would go like:
Slice and Dice Apply once (1-2 CP). Refresh with Envenom.
Rupture Apply and refresh with 5 CP.
Envenom Use with 3+ CP.

*Ideally you want to start each fight with Garrote to trigger Venomous Wounds as early as possible, but not all fights last that long.

I would recommend all Rogues to give Assassination a try, make sure you are hit capped though or you wont enjoy it. As far as stat priorities go, its Agility > Melee Hit > Res , I would also go with a little expertise, it will eliminate your attacks being dodged from behind.

Its really fun playing Rogue in a different spec, but don't take my word for it, give it a shot.

 

[odyne]

Finally someone gave it a go! I'm glad you gave quite a bit of information as well I have a few questions though:

- Is your damage noticeably higher on plate/mail or is it about the same? (Considering you gain poison damage and lose find weakness)
- Have you tested wound vs deadly poison?
- As assasination agi loses stat value compared to sub with it's 25% (Atleast i think it was 25) increase on agi. Does higher PvP power stacking work?

 

[Vase]

- Is your damage noticeably higher on plate/mail or is it about the same? (Considering you gain poison damage and lose find weakness)

The poison damage is really nice for sure, and the beauty of it is that its consistent and venomous wounds also ignore armor. As apposed to the 10 second window find weakness gives you, I think this is quite great. I really am unsure if the damage output is greater dude, I'll parse it tonight for you but I'm quite happy to put my money on yes so far.

- Have you tested wound vs deadly poison?

I'm still undecided which I prefer, Deadly is unaffected by haste, but affected by your melee crit chance, which is good for me because I have loads of crit, but saying that it doesn't stack anymore and reapplying it simply restarts the dot again dealing nature damage too.

Wound, while effectiveness of healing effects on the enemy by 25% it still a drop in the ocean trying to kill a healer type. Heck, even the Hybrid healing classes don't even need to target me while I plow into them, which to me is really wrong... wound also does nature damage too, but not quite as much as deadly.

So until healing is fixed, I'll probably stick with Deadly to be honest. Saying this I've only had one night if testing, I could be wrong

- As assasination agi loses stat value compared to sub with it's 25% (Atleast i think it was 25) increase on agi. Does higher PvP power stacking work?

This is what I'll probably do tonight as well, subs bleeds give 25% more damage, which is _probably_ superior to assassinations rupture damage proc at the moment, but I'll try a few bgs with high PVP Power.

This also gives subtlety a more complicated rotation since hemo is no longer included in this bleed, another reason to try Assassination. :'D

BTW if anyone's wondering, Venomous Wounds now only procs from Rupture OR Garrote. Garrote will not trigger it if rupture is active. *Since garrote ticks once every three seconds and rupture ticks once every two seconds, rupture is better and Venomous Wounds is not affected by the strength of the rupture!!

To go back to a few of my posts, I've been thinking about openers: Mutilate from stealth, seriously. Mutilate has a chance to proc Blindside and if you have Shadow Focus, it's FREE. That's essentially 2 free abilities! And LOTS of quick damage done in a very short period of time.

inb4 ambush is better

Mut gives a chance to proc Dispatch but Ambush does more raw damage, but so when you take into account overall damage potential as well as energy use, Mut actually may come out slightly ahead.

Will update with more findings tonight

 

[Vase]

There something I've said that is horribly wrong

"*Ideally you want to start each fight with Garrote to trigger Venomous Wounds as early as possible, but not all fights last that long."

THIS IS WRONG, forget I said this.

you can only benefit from either rupture's or garrote's venomous wounds, so you want your RUPTURE dot ticking with venomous wounds goingbecause rupture ticks FASTER. Garrote ticks every 3 seconds and rupture ticks every 2 seconds, so you could be missing out on 1/3 of your DPS opening with Garrote, derp.

Pretty elementary, can't believe I didn't think of it earlier

 

[odyne]

I'm curious if you use deadly throw for your silence then? Seeing as how you want to avoid garotte and you can only do it once (assuming you have burst of speed)

 

[Vase]

I'm curious if you use deadly throw for your silence then? Seeing as how you want to avoid garotte and you can only do it once (assuming you have burst of speed)

This is the problem that rogues will face, either go with the garrotte silence opener and have weaker venomous wounds (which might be the best option in some cases for the silence), or mutilate open and then again and get rupture with 5cp with with a harder ticking venomous wounds, different scenarios different openers :/

 

[Faller]

TY Vase for all that info. It helped a lot. I'm back to enjoying my rogue!
(Only thing I can't kill is priest/druid, Obviously)

 

[Vase]

TY Vase for all that info. It helped a lot. I'm back to enjoying my rogue!
(Only thing I can't kill is priest/druid, Obviously)

My pleasure

I'll shorten all the rogue stuff down and make a new thread at some point, maybe help a few disenchanted rogues out.