19 Subtlety Rogue :)

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Missing correct leg enchant
 
Crit makes elemental force proc more and you do more damage over all I would rather lose 2 agility for 5 crit and 1 stam
 
Eriwen said:
Your gear is debatable wether it is BiS or not, if you want crit, change SFs with loom, argas with ello, fang gloves with wild rider and change your leg armor to icescale, although I'd probably change my hlove enchant to the one you are rocking
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You are right my gear is his in my opinion but one thing you said that is wrong is the leg enchant you listed doesn't give you the stats it shows. There are multiple leg enchants that say stats the don't give so be careful and check yourself. I have tested every leg enchant you currently can get and the one I am wearing gives the best stats by far. Most give 2ap/crit and 1ap/crit the one I have gives a solid 3 agil 2 crit.
Plz test it out yourself!
 
Check out this rogue, best geared rogue at 19's.

Hamgodx @ Bleeding Hollow - Community - World of Warcraft

You just need to get...

Gloomshround with peerless stats

Silver Embossed Boots with cat swiftness or blurred speed

x2 Shadowfangs with elemental force

Obviously Scorched Leg Armor on BOA legs when you get the chance

Put Greater Agility on bracers for swag factor.
 
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Bokranya said:
You are right my gear is his in my opinion but one thing you said that is wrong is the leg enchant you listed doesn't give you the stats it shows. There are multiple leg enchants that say stats the don't give so be careful and check yourself. I have tested every leg enchant you currently can get and the one I am wearing gives the best stats by far. Most give 2ap/crit and 1ap/crit the one I have gives a solid 3 agil 2 crit.
Plz test it out yourself!
Click to expand...
Icescale Provides 4 AP 3 Crit
Also, how does Gloomshroud scale in arena/bg?
 
Livingforce said:
Check out this rogue, best geared rogue at 19's.

Hamgodx @ Bleeding Hollow - Community - World of Warcraft

You just need to get...

Gloomshround with peerless stats

Silver Embossed Boots with cat swiftness or blurred speed

x2 Shadowfangs with elemental force

Obviously Scorched Leg Armor on BOA legs when you get the chance

Put Greater Agility on bracers for swag factor.
Click to expand...

why not lynx though? its full ap then 5/5/5 boots over 7/5? thats 2 ap then also forest leather bracers are 5 agi so thats another 2 ap gain
 
Personally I don't understand the logic of gaining like 15 AP at the loss of 700 hp or so.


Ap doesn't have any affect on EFs damage which is a rogues #1 source of damage by a long shot. Crit does however. I would roll sub +stam for survivability and +crit for EF procs.


Especially how in my set I can eat a rogues crit ambush without even flinching.


I also don't understand the logic of going combat over sub.


As combat with an energy pool of 100, sinister strike has a cost of 50 energy per attack. Not a good idea for building combo points for an eviscerate which is your only avenue to spend combo points at 19.


I would rather be sub, dotting everything in the world (particularly rogues) with hemo which also results in extra EF procs when you're not in melee range of your target. Sub also puts an opposing rogue in the position where they may consider popping agm just to regain stealth in which case you play cat and mouse and wait for it to drop... Then they're down their agm.


My guide is in my sig. May not be the most cookie cutter rogue guide because I'm always doing things differently.
 
Mocha said:
Personally I don't understand the logic of gaining like 15 AP at the loss of 700 hp or so.


Ap doesn't have any affect on EFs damage which is a rogues #1 source of damage by a long shot. Crit does however. I would roll sub +stam for survivability and +crit for EF procs.


Especially how in my set I can eat a rogues crit ambush without even flinching.


I also don't understand the logic of going combat over sub.


As combat with an energy pool of 100, sinister strike has a cost of 50 energy per attack. Not a good idea for building combo points for an eviscerate which is your only avenue to spend combo points at 19.


I would rather be sub, dotting everything in the world (particularly rogues) with hemo which also results in extra EF procs when you're not in melee range of your target. Sub also puts an opposing rogue in the position where they may consider popping agm just to regain stealth in which case you play cat and mouse and wait for it to drop... Then they're down their agm.


My guide is in my sig. May not be the most cookie cutter rogue guide because I'm always doing things differently.
Click to expand...
The HP part I strongly agree you.

Sub/Combat is pretty much the same as MoP Sub/Assa choice, while sub provides fast hits and a great bleed on targets combat allows you to spread dmg in close fights and sinister strike does the same dmg as 3 globals of hemorhage from what I have been testing
 
Mocha said:
Personally I don't understand the logic of gaining like 15 AP at the loss of 700 hp or so.


Ap doesn't have any affect on EFs damage which is a rogues #1 source of damage by a long shot. Crit does however. I would roll sub +stam for survivability and +crit for EF procs.


Especially how in my set I can eat a rogues crit ambush without even flinching.


I also don't understand the logic of going combat over sub.


As combat with an energy pool of 100, sinister strike has a cost of 50 energy per attack. Not a good idea for building combo points for an eviscerate which is your only avenue to spend combo points at 19.


I would rather be sub, dotting everything in the world (particularly rogues) with hemo which also results in extra EF procs when you're not in melee range of your target. Sub also puts an opposing rogue in the position where they may consider popping agm just to regain stealth in which case you play cat and mouse and wait for it to drop... Then they're down their agm.


My guide is in my sig. May not be the most cookie cutter rogue guide because I'm always doing things differently.
Click to expand...
You are too focused on which stat affects what and completely ignore by how much they affect it.

1 crit rating gives you an average ~.19 damage per EF proc and ~.22 per auto attack while 1 AP increases your auto attacks by ~.77. You need ~1.9 EF procs per auto attack to break even.

1 crit rating increases your average ambush by .54 (.81 with nightstalker). 1 AP increases your ambush by ~2.08 (3.12). You need about 8 (12) EF procs just to make up for your lower ambush damage.

All numbers are from your armory and don't even take current crit chance into account which AP benefits from while crit does not. To be honest I am too lazy to do the math for hemo and eviscerate but I'm sure you'll get my point.
 
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_Arkant_ said:
You are too focused on which stat affects what and completely ignore by how much they affect it.

1 crit rating gives you an average ~.19 damage per EF proc and .22 per auto attack while 1 AP increases your auto attacks by ~.77. You need ~1.9 EF procs per auto attack to break even.

1 crit rating increases your average ambush by .54 (.81 with nightstalker). 1 AP increases your ambush by ~2.08 (3.12). You need about 8 (12) EF procs just to make up for your lower ambush damage.

All numbers are from your armory and don't even take current crit chance into account which AP benefits from while crit does not. To be honest I am too lazy to do the math for hemo and eviscerate but I'm sure you'll get my point.
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And your auto attacks do 0 damage when you're out of melee range which is something that occurs very, very often given any arena or wsg scenario. Keep in mind evasion during rvr.

The amount of damage you continue to do through evasion and when you're off of your target is much more important to me personally than some extra auto attack damage and ambush damage which is probably going to be counter healed during the fight anyways.

Especially with how many times we're able to heal up in arena... Especially with an undead which awards another lifesteal proc which also frequently grants another EF proc.

Point is it's all relative and up to someone's play style. People crunch numbers all day long and still can't figure out how deadlymidget beat curley 1v1 lol. Or the fact of a rogue without boas, no shadowfangs, no agm, and no professions (me) vs a cata bis rogue with dual fangs, agm, boas and maxed pofessions (confident) ended up in a pretty landslide victory for the rogue who was completely under geared and at severe disadvantages.


I personally feel as though people get too crazy with the number crunching when the outcome of the fights are not even supported by the mathematics that the loser was banking on going into the fight.


The way I play my rogue is very, very defensively. I understand that not many rogues play any style besides press buttons cause numbers. Again, as a rogue with no gap closers, I'll take the dots + ef procs while I'm bandaging out of los while getting a few lifesteal procs... AND I'd rather have a faster 5 point eviscerate while keeping a dot on my opponent.


Just my play style although I appreciate the number crunching.
 
I wasn't arguing sub vs. combat. All numbers were AP vs crit rating for sub rogues.

The fact that gear doesn't solely determine the outcome of fights doesn't mean that itemization shouldn't be optimized. Deadlymidget didn't beat Curley because his gear sucked. Same goes for you vs. Confident.

From your previous posts I got the impression that you were tunnel visioning too much on ways to increase EF damage and underestimated the amount of damage AP provides in WoD.

On a side note, haste is more than twice as effective at increasing EF damage than crit.
 
_Arkant_ said:
haste is more than twice as effective at increasing EF damage than crit.
Click to expand...

This above statement is incorrect.


Lets say you stacked +58 haste which is quite generous for a rogue as I can't see why you would stack over 53 haste. For arguments sake lets say you stacked 58 haste.


58 haste = 22% haste


Out of 156 trials, an average EF noncrit is 109 and an average crit is 184.


To have a haste rating of roughly 22% would increase your rppm to 12 ppms up from EFs normal 10 ppms.

To get a haste rating of 58, your crit would be 17%. Out of 12 EF procs per minute, 17 percent of those would be crits and 83% would be noncrits. That would equal 2 crits and 10 noncrits.

10x109 = 1090
2x184 = 368

1090+368 = 1458 ef damage per minute stacking haste and having 17% crit


Now for rogue not stacking haste with a crit % of 30 % and ef procs of 10 per minute.

Simply this would be 3 crits and 7 noncrits.

7x109 = 763
3x184 = 552

763 + 552 = 1315 ef damage for a rogue with 30% crit

...Okay so stacking haste would give you more EF damage per minute.... let's continue:


The energy gain of 1 haste is just short of 0.04 but we're going to round to 0.04

so

58x .0.04 = 2.32 bonus energy per second for stacking haste


Now 1458 - 1315 = 143 bonus EF damage per minute for stacking haste instead of crit. (which is by no means anywhere near twice as effective) and you're losing 13 crit % for the gain of 143 damage + 2.32 energy per second


Conclusion

So by me stacking stamina and crit, (to your surprise) I am actually looking at more than just EF damage and I had created a point where I can maximize EF damage while being in, and out of melee range... whilst still maximizing in melee range combat and survivability. Now to relate this to the entire AP vs stam + crit thing:

134 ap = 38.29 dps
117 ap = 33.43 dps

2717 hp - 2052 hp
= 665 hp


So a 4.86 dps loss for 665 HP? I'll take it any day.
 
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