Why Mongoose over Crusader?

What the title says. Obviously rogues are off the question. But for retardins, warrs, even druids or shamans, why choose Mongoose over Crusader? Why 120 agi over 200 AP plus 10~ stamina per proc?





EDIT: just to make some facts clearer:



Shamans get 1 AP from agi, and 1 AP from str

Druids get 2 AP from str in all forms, and 1 AP from agi in cat form only

Paladins and warriors both get 2 AP from str and no AP at all from agi.

Rogues get 1 AP from both stats.





The lack of instant attacks makes proccing enchants less profitable for paladins and shamans at these lower levels.
 
Zyrkonos said:
What the title says. Obviously rogues are off the question. But for retardins, warrs, even druids or shamans, why choose Mongoose over Crusader? Why 120 agi over 200 AP plus 10~ stamina per proc?



Can't speak for rets or warriors, because they draw their AP from strength (Mongoose < Crusader for them), but if I remember correctly, shamans drawn their AP from agility, thus making enchants increasing agility more valuable for enhance skills (WF, etc.).



I've always been told that static stat increaser enchants were more reliable (and better) for shammys, though.
 
Cause Mongoose look imba? ...But really Savagery > Crusader anyways.

EDIT: Warriors get 2ap for every str, im sure of that.
 
Well this is new to me. I must've been confusing Agi AP with Str AP. I know Agi doesn't give 2 Ap to any class, I thought it was the same with Str. My bad =S.
 
Drood, warr, pally, death knight, and formerly shaman all get 2 AP from str. It's always been that way, even pre-nerfs and patch changes hunters used to get 2 AP from ag.
 
Warriors may choose to use mongoose with a fury build to have higher uptime on flurry, or with an arms build to keep deep wounds stacking up higher and higher. Over long periods of time, keeping these buffs going provides a signifigant dps increase.

However, when it comes to burst, crusader is the way to go. Because OP (for example) is granted signifgant amount of crit from talents, an increase in ap is far more valuable than an increase in crit %.



As for Pallies, Savagery is the way to go, so you're always getting the benefit of the enchant during your opener. If using a BaR, Crus is optimal. Any pallies using mongoose are rather misguided, as they have garunteed crits on stunned targets to keep vengeance stacked up; and because of those garunteed crits +ap becomes more valuable than +crit.
 
+35 agi is plain terrible for feral druids. Kitties MUST use a proc-based enchant. The exploitable attack speed in cat form and the procrate mechanics make crus/mongoose a proc-ahoy heaven for cats. For example, with The Pacifier, crusader would have a 4*1,82= 7'3 aprox procrate. If you are in cat form, your atk speed is 1.00, and you have all those instant attacks, which basically means you'll be proccing like there's no tomorrow. That's much better than a static +35 agi.



About crusader over mongoose, I'd go for crusader for feral druids. Yeah, granted, 120 agi will boost your dps more (tho not that much more) in cat form, but 100 str (220 AP) will also boost your dps through the roof, and in any form. More important, it will heal you for 100~ each proc (+20% in cat form), which I find more valuable than the extra crit. Especially since I won't have a big enough mana pool to be shifting-healing-shifting back much.
 
ok, 35agi was the best enchant for a feral. this possibly changed the moment proc enchants entered a druids life.most of the dps cats + lots of tanks used mongoose then.



BUT they are in a raid setup. PvE. windfury. endgame haste gear.



a 39 pvp feral druid does not stand behind his target, gettin heals from lots of other players, doin high dps over a long period of time.

a 39 pvp feral druid is doin good dmg in the first seconds of a fight. seconds without mongoose. seconds that could have benefit from a 35agi enchant.

a 39 pvp feral druid will sooner or later shift into bear or selfheal. moments he wont make big use of proc.

a 39 pvp feral druid does not have the the huge control over the fight a rogue has AND relies even more on the opening dmg. while a rogue has a good chance to have a proc after stunlock, a feral will get it just a second before he needs shift/heal.



in no way 35agi is a terrible enchant for a 39 pvp druid!

in no way an attack speed of 1,0 is something that benefits mongoose.

AND a feral druid should allways (without a pockethealer) have a mana pool allowing him to shift more than once.
 
nice reply :D



ok, just to clarify, I didn't really mean 35 agi is terrible, It's just that I find it to be very inferior to crus and goose. I can see how you are right about your second statement: the burst damage can be boosted by a static enchant. Even though by the time you have 5 combo points and drop the Rip or Ferocious bite, you'll most probably have procced the enchant. Also, as my playstyle consists of kiting (using my +30% speed) while my bleeds do the damage and I regain energy, when I come back to finish it off the proc will still be up.



However, your first statement can hardly be considered a point: I have no problem at all for lading Shreds on my targets. Actually, many times they turn their backs on me accidentally by themselves (it's hard to control that since your "back" is a 180º area).



Your third statement is not quite accurate. Bear form still has some instant attacks to boost the proc %, like Swipe (which I'm not sure about its proc mechanics: It would be OP if it could proc off every hit, can any warr confirm this in Whirlwind's case?). Also, with Primal Fury and more than 1 enemy around, Swipe becomes spammable. And ofc bear benefits from crusader, and mongoose to a lesser extent.



And I don't quite see what do you mean with your last statement. Sure, a rogue has more control over the fight, but I can't see how that affects his procrate. Maybe you mean that the druid gets beat on earlier and as such he doesn't have that much time to proc the enchant in kitty before he has to shift, but that depends on one's playstyle.





I obviously have a decent mana pool, what I meant is that without the improved lotp talent, the mana regen in combat is horrible, you could even say nonexistent, so no matter how big it is, after enough shifts or heals you'll be oom. Playing conservatively helps tho, and with the feral charge we lack in the 29 bracket we have alternatives to powershifting.



About the weapon speed, I might have explained myself wrong. When wielding a 4.00 weapon enchanted with crus, it has a roughly 7.3% proc chance. When you shift into kitty you have 4 times the attack speed, and also instant attacks, but you RETAIN that 7.3% proc chance.





EDIT: wow, I take all that back. I did some further research and it seems I was wrong. Mongoose/crus take your present atk speed into account for the calculations. So in kittie you'd have a 1/60 proc chance. In bear a 1/24. But since you don't have many instants in bear form (and it seems Swipe can't proc it either), 35 agi seems like a far better choice.
 
Zyrkonos said:
Mongoose/crus take your present atk speed into account for the calculations. So in kittie you'd have a 1/60 proc chance. In bear a 1/24. But since you don't have many instants in bear form (and it seems Swipe can't proc it either), 35 agi seems like a far better choice.



thx45678910
 
Yeah, was about to call you out on that myself.



Goose/Crusader works out far worse than static enchants for kitties as your proc rate for instants is based on a 1.0 attack speed, making the chance to proc on an instant as compared to a warrior with pod about 25% of his chance... :D



And your openers are vital as feral, and goose wont be up yet.
 
Imagine hunters would have 2 AP from agility again... Its a nightmare!!! (Not that my main hunter wouldnt like this change...)
 

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