*[ROGUE]* - Cataclysm Rogue Talent Spec Ideas

[Emonator]

Now I have gathered that we will either get 15 or 16 talent points to spend at level 39 for the new cataclysm talents. I am not sure about the masteries either, but Assassination Rogues will get Mutilate, Subtlety will get increased damage on Hemo and 15% agility, and Combat will get more damage on their offhand weapon.



If you have any ideas of how you intend to talent for 39 in Cataclysm, for Arena or Battlegroups or just the most overpowered spec, I'd be interested to see them. As I do not play Rogue at level 80, my Rogue knowledge is limited now that higher level abilities have been added into the 39 bracket.



Thanks to all

-Emonator, Destroyer of Revelosh.

 

[Supbrah]

With the addition of mutilate, i would probably say assas. Altho i guess sub is still gna be nice. Afaik you HAVE to spend 31 talents in a specific tree if you put 1 point in it at 10

 

[Medan]

Yes, you can only spend talents in one tree at our lvl.



Although its only an estimate, Ill go trough what I think about the specs.

Glyphs might change a lot and its hard to say what classes would be the most dangerous for us



About the rogue talent trees:

Damn, its hard to say with all the changes.



In my eyes Sub becomes the old type of rogue, reliant on CDs. Combat is more like a failed version of "the new type of rogue" that blizz tried to make. Assassin becomes, in my eyes, an unstoppable machine of dmg and burst, with nice survivability.



Ill try to show what talents I would chose in the different trees and explain a little.



SUBTLETY

Previously sub was 100% the best spec one could take. But now it looks like we no longer can get preparation, and sub rogues no longer have the increased stealth + detect.



Talent tree for sub is actually really hard.



Perhaps something like this:

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie



Sub gets shadowstep, 10 % increased dmg for 6 sek after stealth, 15% increased agi and 10% more wep dmg from hemorrhage. All nice things



Premeditation is really nice, but I think over all dmg would be better with 1 point in honor among thieves.

Sub will probably be a lot about the ambushes, so buffing them with talents aint a bad thing.

I think improved ambush and waylay are really good.

Elusiveness, Hemorrhage and opportunity are all musts of this spec IMO

Because rogues no longer have improved stealth, its nice to talent so you can at least sap from normal range. Other trees have to get way to close for comfort

Camouflage is always nice when your so dependent on ambushes as this tree IMO is.



A normal opener for a sub specced rogue could be premeditation, shadowstep, ambush, eviccerate. That is some serious dmg in 1 sek. Alternativly use kidney instead of evis.

After opener they still have hemorrhage to build combo points and 2 minute vanish/blind (combat and assassination have 3min)

Sub also lose dirty deeds, making their opener's no cheaper then the other specs.





COMBAT

Combat gets Dual Wield Specialization (50% more dmg from offhand),



Blade Flurry (20% increased mele swings and can hit an additional target. I'm not sure TBH, but I really really doubt this is for anything but mele swings, eviscerate and sinister strike)



Vitality: 25% increased energy regain. Very nice



WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie

Combat tree can also get trough talent:



Improved kick (2 sek silence)

Improved sprint (removes impairing effects) A healer could take off many of those, but not all. And you don't allays have one so its an okay ability

Improved recuperate, witch is pretty nice. I'm guessing people will want to have it up a lot.

Blade twisting (pretty nice TBH, not even pvp trinket/human thingy can remove that)

Improved gouge, love gouge and this is a nice ability



Note: Reinforced leather (and cloth lol):

Don't spec this. 50% increased armor from cloth and leather items, but that is only around 370 armor. Its not game braking at all, should at least have been total armor. (rubbish IMO)





ASSASSINATION

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie

Where to start really, IMO every rogue should spec this. Ok, have 5 min of fun with shadowstep and then spec assassination.



Only talking about the really nice stuff, its enough of that (finishing with the talent specific things)



We get Quickening, giving us 20%+ in healing effects. This works for everything, Belt heal, herbal heal, bandage heal and recuperate, and ofc heals from a team mate.

Quickening also makes us move 15% faster (does not stack with other effects like minor speed or sprint). Minor speed is +8% speed and you might think "WTF is another 8% speed lol" well think of it like this: 95%+ of twinks have minor speed, with this, its like your the only one with minor speed. Its a nice advantage, trust me.



Deadly brew! Crippling poison is a must, with this we can main hand Wound poison and have mind numbing if offhand. Classes will hate us for that. Finally having wound in main also increases our dmg from its procs. If were not against a caster team we can use instant poison in main hand and wound in offhand for even more dmg. (we get +50% chance to apply instant from passive)



Cold Blood? This tree has it all! Paired with the +20% dmg from evis is just imba. The 30% dmg bonus from lethally also works for evis. (Although, I might use cold blood on a mutilate, not sure about the dmg differences)



Puncturing wounds: 15% more crit on my main ability? Yes please



Improved Poisons. As mentioned above, we get +50% chance to apply our instant poison



Assassin's Resolve (passive) We get passive 20 extra energy and +15% dmg while using daggers. 20 extra energy = one mutilate and then another right after, niice. And I'm all about daggers so 15% extra dmg... well okai, wont hurt



We get Mutilate. Mutilate attacks with both weps at the same time and gives awesome burst. (I'm not that good on wep normalizer for mutilate, so help me out if I'm totally lost).

Lets say we could dural wield WSG dagger to make this easier.

WSG dagger wep speed is 1.7 (so we can use the normal dmg range without modifying it, I think)

dmg range is 34-65, since we dural wield its 68-130

100% main hand dmg, 100% offhand dmg with another 44 dmg from each hand (we pretend they are identical) so basically 200% wep dmg and 88 extra dmg. If we mutilate a target with a poison on its another +20% dmg. And remember the passive +15% dmg.

Add the dmg from ap: Lets say you have 400 AP: 400/14 x 1.7 = 48.6 extra dmg (I THINK), I'm also 99.9% sure we multiply with 2, since its 2 weps. So 97.2 ap dmg





Minimum dmg with a non crit on a poisoned target with 25% armor would be

(200%)x(34x2) / 100

=136



This is the dmg before we add the extra 88 dmg from weps, the 97 dmg from ap, the 20% extra dmg from poisoned targets and the extra 15% dmg from passive. And subtracted the dmg a 25% armor target would have.



First, lets add the extra dmg mentioned above:

136 + 88 + 97 = 321



Then add the 20% and 15% dmg:

321.2 x 1.2 x 1.15

= 443



Then subtract dmg, since target has 25% armor we get:

443.3 x 0.75

=332

Not THAT much, but its the minimum dmg (with poison on) and with armor counted in.



Lets see the max dmg on a non crit (with poison on) against 25% armored target:



Minimum dmg with a non crit on a poisoned target with 25% armor would be

(200%)x(65x2) / 100

=260



This is the dmg before we add the extra 88 dmg from weps, the 97 dmg from ap, the 20% extra dmg from poisoned targets and the extra 15% dmg from passive. And subtracted the dmg a 25% armor target would have.



First, lets add the extra dmg mentioned above:

260 + 88 + 97 = 445



Then add the 20% and 15% dmg:

445 x 1.2 x 1.15

= 614



Then subtract dmg, since target has 25% armor we get:

614 x 0.75

=461

I think thats pretty nice for a non crit. It costs 60 energy though (but gives 2 combo points)

Lets see how much it gets when we crit, but still does the minimum dmg, against a poisoned target, with 25% armor:



(400%)x(34x2) / 100

=272



add the extra dmg:

272 + 88 + 97

= 457



Then add the 20% and 15% dmg (multiplied by 2 since its a crit) AND the +30% extra dmg we get if we crit:

457x 1.4 x 1.3 x 1.3

= 1081



Then withdraw because of the 25% armor:

1081 x 0.75

= 811



Verry nice indeed (so nice I'm afraid I did something wrong, perhaps I cant dubble the % dmg...), and its even the lowest crit we can get on a poisoned target.



Lets see what the maximum dmg on a poisoned target with 25% armor would be:



(400%)x(65x2) / 100

=520



Adding the extra dmg:



520 + ((88 + 97)x2)

=520 + 370

=890



And now add the extra % dmg thingys:



890 x 1.4 x 1.3 x 1.3

= 2105 Sick! but this has to be wrong, probably cant multiply the % thingys by 2



Lets see how much that is against a target with 25% armor:

2105x .75

=1579 Sick as fuck





Because I got so high numbers Im gonna do the crits without dubbling the % dmg thingys:

Minimum:

457x 1.2 x 1.15 x 1.3

= 820 before 25% armor



820 x 0.75

=615 Still fucking nice though, might still be some mistakes, first time I did this and only had little more then basic math at High school Oh and it was kinda late 0530 here now, oh and my house went on fire and...



Maximum:

(400)x(65x2)/100

=520



520 x 1.2 x 1.15 x 1.3

=933



Against a target with 25% armor:

933 x 0.75

=700 max crit



Note, its to hard to tell how the matches will turn out, so the 2 points could be in Vile Poisons instead of blackjack. I imagine Blackjack would be quite good in bg's to simply running around sapping ppl that are about to engage your FC/team and ruin their dmg for 8 sek and. Vile poisons is nice, but IMO we do enough dmg now, time to take away opponent dmg



Note#2: As for weps, I'm gonna use WSG dagger and Fiendish Skiv both with mongoose and Balanced Heartseeker with wep chain.

Offhand has less chance to hit in mele swings, but the exact same chance to hit with mutilate (obviusly). Mongoose gives nice crit and burst and you do more then twice the dmg when you crit with mutilate. Not sure whether Ill swap Fiendish skiv or WSG dagger with BOA dagger when I need the wep chain.

 

[pilgrim]

I was going to disagree with you on the mutilate spec. But seeing your damage calculations it looks pretty damn good. Im pretty sure rogues will be around 600 AP, so your damage might be a little low. But if you factor in mongoose or double mongoose, you wouldn't need it to crit to be destroying most things.



I do like sub for a couple of reasons though, mostly utility.

Being able to vanish and blind people more often is almost as valuable is quick kills.

Going stealth in 4 seconds as opposed to 10 is really key often times as well.

Moving more quickly while stealthed, plus 8% speed to boots, is almost as fast as moving around unstealthed.

Having shadowstep to stop people from kiting you is insane. It's not as good at higher levels because mutilate is so powerful, but at this bracket it is probably a little better.

Hemorage with daggers is very good, as you can hit 3 times off a full energy bar, or after a shadowstep.

Ambush slowing people by 50% is incredibly as well, it with ShS will mean death no matter what. And ambush to kidney shot is also a very valid opener.



Either way rogues should move from a sub damage class to a very good dps choice.



Gotta watch out for pallies and shamans though as they get much better damage increases then rogues do.

 

[Medan]

free 6 sec gouges on a 10 sec cd, along with 20% longer kidneys is pretty damn nice , COMBAT YEEEE

yeap, makes u able to go to stealth as well

 

[Medan]

Did the math again, should be right now:

Heres how you do it:



Non crit top end dmg: 65 + ((400AP/14)x1.7)= 113.6. This is one hand dmg before any added dmg, then we add the 44 dmg and get 157.6 dmg. We take that and multiply by 1.15 and 1.2 = 217.5 Thats one wep, so we multiply by 2 and get 435. Then we do the crit dmg bonus. 435 + 435x1.3 = 1000.5 max mutilate crit (before armor is counted in)

So around 750 max crit on a 25% armored target.

 

[sefftastic]

There is more to this than meets the eye.



Firstly, it would appear that rogues will now be allowed to wear mail, if we get it at 40 is another thing.



"•In PvP, we want to reduce the rogue's dependency on binary cooldowns and "stun-locks," and give them more passive survivability in return. One major change is that we'll put Cheap Shot on the same diminishing return as other stuns. The increase to Armor and Stamina on cloth, leather, and mail gear will help with this goal as well." - GC.



Presuming we get our first talent point at Level 11, (as the last talent point will surely be 85?) we will get 15 points.



The main changes that will affect are the reduced MS effect (20% down from 50% on wound), and the lack of bleeds. This might make assasination extremmely viable as we can run DoT poisons whilst keeping up MS and crippling. Can you imagine dueling mages or making pressure on disc priests without bleeds? Unless bandages have new level requirements, we might find ourselves forced into using assasination purely for deadly brew, or giving up MS all together if we go into other trees.



I like the changes to stealth levels and detections. There were other potentially viable trees in Wotlk 39, but with the amount of rogues running around, if you were not Sub, you might as well run around unstealthed. Now we can pick a tree and we don't have to worry about speccing into passive talents, or worry about always getting sapped.



Combat seems, as usual, the weak 39 tree. Another second on kidney and around 8% more total DPS from off-hand specialization is not going to cut it. The damage is a distant third, even when factoring in blade furry. Sure, you might last longer, and be able to optimize for more stamina (as hit cap is free) but I think there is not enough tricks, nor enough functional damage, or CP generation outside of BF to warrant speccing into. It may be effective on mages.



I think most people are split between assasination and sub. The mutilate damage is tempting, but for my liking it's too expensive. (I always preferred hemo to mutilate even in TBC). Deadly Brew is the number one reason I would consider the tree. Having a DoT is essential to us now. Even without Shiv at this level it will be very effective. Without it we can run out of CD's and are opponents can FA to full all day because we have no mobility. I thnk the damage will be adequate but certainly no better than Sub.



As for Sub, this is the tree I'll probably stick with (but by no means certainly). No preparation is a killer, for sure. But shadowstep finally gives us that mobility we need to stick on frostmages for example. Unless I am wrong on how the talent points are given out at different levels, we won't have premeditation. We might find ourselves forced into using ambush more, but with the new modifiers and passive buffs we might see some huge numbers. Increased sap range, blind and vanish CD I still consider quite essential.

 

[Medan]

dont think we can use mail, just that everyone not using plate will get a armor and stam buff so the plate users aren't that OP

Also think we get first talent point at lvl 10, I don't have any source for this, but its like that atm. EDIT: Im not sure any more, semes a bit logical that we advance to a new tier once we hit 40, not 39.

I don't think combat last longer then assassination. Sure the 2% extra recuperate heal based on health is nice and the 6% less dmg taken while using it is also nice. The armor thing is completely rubbish. Assassination get a whopping 20% increased heals from friends and your recuperate and not only that, but your belt, your lifeblod and your bandages also (and HS if u got a lock).

Yes, shadowstep is nice, I fucking love shadowstep. Still 8% faster movement then all your opponents is also really nice and that's constant. I feal like sub is more like a CD tree and once those CDs are gone, your dmg and efficiency is reduced. Yes, sub does have nice ambushes, but IMO most games last longer then the ambush at the opener. Mutilate gives a constant awesome dmg and sick burst. Compared with a buff to the main combo spending ability: Evis. Mutilate also gets icy veins for that finisher.

In burst games without a healer, perhaps sub

In every other scenario I think assassination will dominate. I will look for the 2 in a row mutilate crits and follow it up with a cold blood evis and just win win win

Just think about it, how much time do you spend unstealthed? All that time IMO mutilate will dominate



Just think sub has to many shit talents. You buff your opener with endless of talents and have to spend a talent point to get your combo point gainer.

How many openers u think you gonna get? There's not even prep.



Assassination has imba talents, every talent is nice. instead of buffing dmg on the 1-3, perhaps 4 openers your gonna get (normal fight) we get 30% increased dmg from the main combo point spender: Evis, and another 30% if you crit. Added with the 15% dmg we get from using daggers. Every talent is nice. More healing, faster movement, using wound and mindnumbing, cold blood, increased crit on your main ability. And everyone u sap gets minus 70% dmg for 8 sek. Sap dps, kill healer, or sap dps 1 and then dps 2 and go on dps 1, dps 1 is gonna do 70% less dmg in the first 8 sek, its imba.



Even if mutilate and hemorrhage was equal in dmg per energy point, asssassination would still do the dmg in half the time. 2 globals is 1 sek between the dmg. Then (as a bloodelf) I would arcane torrent for 15 energy and cold blood evis the bastard to hell. More burst then ambushes. Ambush can be used once in a while, mutilate can be used over and over til you get a dubble crit and then followed up by a Cold Blood'ed Evis (assassination evis can crit for around 1k also, but costs a lot less). That's potentially over 3k dmg in 2-3 sek



-Yes, coulda spent more time writing that, CBA atm