General Weapon Theory Sheet

[mirrorbender]

I have created a sheet comparing some of the most popular weapon options in each category. The original motivation was to see how good the Hellscream heirlooms were for this thread, but I ended up just adding a whole bunch of weapons and I think it deserves its own thread.

I tried to include the most noteworthy options, but if there are any important ones I missed, lmk and I can add them.

Here ya go! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13fgJEyaO0Z4fcBusbyudbI72ax9cKYlSVJtz-AVLmeU/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Chops]

You’re a legend, dude

 

[Captain Keelson]

What i need to wear for max my dmg if i go full mastery outlaw?

 

[toskosa]

Wowhead trinkets are bugged but other then that everything else seems fine ( the trinkets show the same on use/proc value at all lvls, the stats remain fine) I do have a question though, what abilities did you use to test on? Or did you not use ability tooltips for this at all?

 

[mirrorbender]

What i need to wear for max my dmg if I go full mastery outlaw?

I honestly don't know. It depends what you have access to. Outlaw also seems to be all over the place in terms of whether abilities are main hand or composite (both hands). If you have an ilvl 25+ slow weapon (Blue https://www.wowhead.com/item=156998/cudgel-of-naralex?ilvl=25 or https://www.wowhead.com/item=156999/mokmorokks-headcracker?ilvl=25) I'd recommend that with https://www.wowhead.com/item=27901/blackout-truncheon?bonus=6710&ilvl=25 in the off hand. Otherwise, I'd put https://www.wowhead.com/item=27901/blackout-truncheon?bonus=6710&ilvl=25 in the main hand and https://www.wowhead.com/item=27846/claw-of-the-watcher?bonus=6710&ilvl=25 in the off hand. But you may want to go with a different setup to get more stamina or different secondary stats.

I do have a question though, what abilities did you use to test on? Or did you not use ability tooltips for this at all?

This is all theory, not test results. The ability numbers listed are the calculated base ability damage numbers. Basically all damage (or healing) done by spells and abilities (with some exceptions) are based on feeding one of these base ability damage numbers into a bunch of multipliers.

 

[Chops]

What i need to wear for max my dmg if i go full mastery outlaw?

Blue Cudgel of Naralex or Mok'Morokk's Headcracker

Given that Mok'Morokk's comes from a quest as a blue, its pretty much your go-to choice for outlaw. If you get an upgrade to epic, all the better but even as a blue its better than other options. It's a horde only quest though, so if you're looking to play alliance for SMeld, you'll need to faction swap after getting it.

 

[toskosa]

This is all theory, not test results. The ability numbers listed are the calculated base ability damage numbers. Basically all damage (or healing) done by spells and abilities (with some exceptions) are based on feeding one of these base ability damage numbers into a bunch of multipliers.

Cool was curious about how you went about things.

Outlaw also seems to be all over the place in terms of whether abilities are main hand or composite

I know for there mastery its mh damage alone, if you have an offhand equipped but no mH it deals 0 damage even though the mastery states "mh attacs have a 30% chance to trigger an off hand attack that deals X damage" the damage is always calculated with MH just like extra swing procs from stuff like iron foe hoj and trashblade. I am pretty sure all outlaws moves are MH same with sub. Only mutilate uses offhand for damage. I have spent hours testing the extra attack proc items on outlaw.

 

[mirrorbender]

According to AskMrRobot, the following are MH for Outlaw:
Ambush, Ghostly Strike (Talent), Instant Poison, Main Gauche (Mastery), Sinister Strike

And these are composite:
Between the Eyes, Pistol Shot

I believe that truly composite abilities like these (as opposed to ones that actually have separate main hand and off hand hits) are considered main hand attacks for the purposes of proccing added effects.

 

[Jaco]

This is awesome stuff, thank you!

I like objective, transparent calculations and data.

Unfortunately, I cannot calculate how much damage my spells deal. I think this is funny, it shouldn’t be this way. If I had the formulas, I’m certain I could calculate the damage. Of course, there’s a random element to this due to crit chance, block chance, etc. but it should be possible to calculate a statistical average value. Then I could work out my own stat priorities and stat weights much easier. I get it why people say stat weights depend on personal preference and playstyle. But how about newbies who don’t have a well-established playstyle? Also, I can image some very experienced players select gear very subjectively, they have no idea how their damage is affected by the different choices.

Yes, theoretically I can measure my damage with damage meter addons. I used two different ones in a dungeon recently and they gave completely different results. How do these addons calculate /get damage (from)? What formulas do they use? What if they’re wrong? What if AskMrRobot’s formulas are wrong?

Why is Blizzard not more transparent about this? (Maybe because the formulas are so broken and/or complicated that not even their programmers understand them? Maybe they publish all these formulas somewhere very clearly, in which case I apologise). Well, I guess most of the players wouldn’t be interested, but I am. Actually, probably this is the thing I am most interested in about the game.

Probably the most reliable way of measuring damage is checking the numbers in Combat Log as this data is calculated by the game itself. So, it seems if I want to get accurate data, then I have to farm the gear, equip the gear and do very long damage tests on training dummies to get a statistical average value. It would be way easier if I only had to look at the specs of the gear, input that data in my spreadsheet, which would give me the result immediately.

 

[mirrorbender]

Of course, there’s a random element to this due to crit chance, block chance, etc. but it should be possible to calculate a statistical average value. Then I could work out my own stat priorities and stat weights much easier.

This is true, and this is what simulators try to do. The thing with stat weights though, especially in PvP where you aren't just smacking a dummy, is that there are practical and mechanical concerns that come into play beyond just theoretical volume of output. There's also the issue of how to weigh defensive stats like stamina/armor against offensive stats.

Also, I can image some very experienced players select gear very subjectively, they have no idea how their damage is affected by the different choices.

Indeed, being good at actually playing the game =/= having a detailed understanding of how stats/damage calculations work. This is true both ways, you can know all the theory in the world and still suck ass like me.

How do these addons calculate /get damage (from)? What formulas do they use? What if they’re wrong?

I'm not sure what they're actually doing but they SHOULD be pulling directly from the combat log feed if they want to be accurate, and not trying to run some sort of simulation.

What if AskMrRobot’s formulas are wrong?

Then their simulations will be wrong. I imagine they want to avoid this, and thus actively to keep their formulas as accurate and up to date as they can.

Why is Blizzard not more transparent about this? (Maybe because the formulas are so broken and/or complicated that not even their programmers understand them? Maybe they publish all these formulas somewhere very clearly, in which case I apologise). Well, I guess most of the players wouldn’t be interested, but I am. Actually, probably this is the thing I am most interested in about the game.

I think blizzard isn't more straightforward with this because it's way more complicated and math-y than they think most people want to deal with in their fantasy MMO. They're trying to sell a video game, not a math problem. People who aren't wierdos like us don't want to do multivariable calculus to figure out how big their fireballs are going to be.

As far as I know, askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/ is the best publicly available reference there is for formulas. Its not super easy to decipher and find everything you need, but if you want to do damage calculations without obtaining/testing actual gear in the actual game, everything that you need should be on there.

 

[Chops]

This is true, and this is what simulators try to do. The thing with stat weights though, especially in PvP where you aren't just smacking a dummy, is that there are practical and mechanical concerns that come into play beyond just theoretical volume of output.

Yep! real good example of this is warrior 2handers, where the spreadsheet says hatebringer but my gut says Crow Wing. More crit = better for melee classes that sit in CC a lot and have limited up time on a target.

Or really interesting situations like warrior sword/board swapping where all the listed equipment on the spreadsheet is far superior stat wise to artifacts, but i think you should still use artifact in a world where crusader gets fixed and swapping to sword/board defensively makes sense. Its treated as a single item and thus just requires 1, not 2, GCDs.

Stuff like that is always neat to consider, especially once you have a resource like this.

And then you crunch all these numbers, theorycraft all the possible situations, and still get curbstomped by the mighty wizkidone who is still wearing like... heirlooms and shit lol

 

[Warglave]

And then you crunch all these numbers, theorycraft all the possible situations, and

...then decide it's too much work to worry about it cuz you...

still get curbstomped by the mighty wizkidone who is still wearing like... heirlooms and shit

It is for me at least, anyway. Or something changes the next week and you'd need to rethink it all again.

 

[mirrorbender]

Yep! real good example of this is warrior 2handers, where the spreadsheet says hatebringer but my gut says Crow Wing.

Yes, it is important to realize that just because something is sorted higher on the list does not make it better. It just means that it contributes more to your raw ability damage. Or more simply, it gives the equivalent of more primary stat. Hatebringer, for example, is sorted higher than Crow Wing because it has a +1 strength socket bonus, and is otherwise identical in terms of stats that contribute to raw ability damage. Crow Wing still gives +3 crit and +7 stamina, and would be my personal choice between the two.

 

[Ivo]

So you're taking sockets into consideration by using +3 main stat gems but not enchants? Is there a reason behind this?
The whole point of using 1h+oh on casters is to benefit from the +5 int enchant on the off-hand. You're not showing that on your sheet.

 

[mirrorbender]

So you're taking sockets into consideration by using +3 main stat gems but not enchants? Is there a reason behind this?
The whole point of using 1h+oh on casters is to benefit from the +5 int enchant on the off-hand. You're not showing that on your sheet.

As soon as I add any other variables, the amount of options (and thus entries in the table) goes up exponentially. The biggest thing I was trying to clarify and present was 1) the value of weapon damage and 2) the general weirdness of dual wield, and then to combine those factors with the weapon's other stats into what is basically a total attack power contribution number that is coming from the weapon slots.

Enchants are doubly impractical to consider because not only are there many options worth considering, but they all scale to different values in at 20 vs 29. Generally, enchants are controlled for by the fact that they're going to behave the same no matter what weapon you put them on. The spellpower enchants for 1H vs 2H are the exception. Perhaps I should split them into 2 categories, or just remove caster weapons, as there isn't really any interesting math going on with them, it's just adding up all the int/SP.

Leaving gems out of the calculation doesn't really seem good, as that's THE major differentiator between many of these weapons, and it contributes in a direct way the raw ability damage. +3 stat gems seemed like a good control to me, partly because they're universally solid options and partly because I don't think there is a good way to fairly factor in stamina/secondary stats. A gem slot is worth up to 3 raw ability damage, so I thought it best to give it credit as such. If you are wanting to sacrifice some of that for something like stamina or haste, that's a tradeoff that can't really be measured objectively.

I'm very much open to suggestions on reformatting the table, adding/removing rows/columns, changing the sorting, etc to try and make this more useful.

 

[Ivo]

I should've specified that I'm talking about caster weapons only. The only thing I see that is off are the caster weapons because you don't take the offhand enchant into consideration. It looks like some 2H weapons actually provide more dmg which could confuse new people who don't know why we use 1H+OH or aren't aware of the off-hand enchant at all. It's the only enchant that is useful on OH so it's a common one. Might be better if the caster weapons are removed because there isn't any useful information as you said.
Other from that it's a nice resourse.

 

[Chops]

could just throw a note on it like "hey, you wanna use MH/OH because you get the OH enchant. Staffs are included for reference only" or some such.

 

[mirrorbender]

I've separated staffs into their own category. I've also added another column that lists secondary stats/other bonuses that don't contribute to the raw ability damage calculation, similar to the stamina column.