Elemental Shaman gearing questions

[Pukethirst]

Torn between different ways to go at stat-building. Trying to go for an optimum setup, aint quite sure how to go about doing it. Have options for heirloom items/underworld band and I already have the felbane weapon, blade of eternal darkness, double freezing band, eye of flame, etc.



Here's a look at my armory atm:



The World of Warcraft Armory - Pukethirst @ Magtheridon - Profile





Endure my questions! ;-)



1) I'm not sure if double Freezing Band's proc is worth double Underworld Band's 20 stamina, although I would lose 12 spell power. Its the best way I know of to trade the least amount of spell power for the most amount of stamina atm. Anyone wise me up if I've missed other options. I just find freezing bands quite useful against hunter pets and rogues, but always question the tradeoff.



2) I feel Banthok + Cyclopean Band is puzzling, as Flashlight + Greaves of Withering Despair alone give me 5% hit. I want 5% hit, don't I? Without flashlight, where does that 5% hit come from? With Banthok over Chloromesh Girdle, if I'm already at 5% hit, I'm trading 10 stamina for 14 spell power, whereas with double underworld band over double freezing band, I'm trading 20 stamina for 12 spell power.



3) This is probably a no duh, maybe I'm a little attached, but is 29 passive spellpower from Blessed Hammer of Grace going to be better than Blade of Eternal Darkness proc? Proc is 10% chance to do 100 damage and restore 100 mana, no internal cooldown and can proc from aoe I hear. Blessed Hammer of Grace does have 8 stam, 2 mp5, and some resilience too, so keep that in mind.



Also, Soothsayer's or Eye of Flame. I like heavy spell damage, and don't know whats the right health pool. Seems like a lot of the time, if I die(in the no-xp bracket), I was going to die no matter what. Its why I always question more/less stamina at the trade-off/gain of spell power.



Probably isn't a perfect answer here, but all logical responses are appreciated! Thanks in advance.



EDIT: Some armory links would be appreciated, as well as some personal experience stories.



EDIT #2: I may have found a right way. If I spec 2 points into 2% hit instead of 46% pushback reduction, the Cyclopean Band + Banthok Sash + Discerning Eye of the Beast would be 5% hit as well, and I'd only be trading 7 spell power for 18 stamina, which seems to be a darn good deal. I wonder if the 46% pushback is really worth it then?

 

[Samadius]

Blade of eternal darkness is a waste of time to farm.. but if you get it Try it out! and be kind to inform us how good it really is



and its 39 passive spell power from Boa 1h mace by the way. But yes 29 if you take a 30sp on boa and 40sp on dagger enchant into accord.



I got all the gear you want to compare and I compared it all and I still don't have the right answer for every situation sorry.



Pick one if your not getting them all, but try get them all and it be up to your style what you will go with.



According to rings I was lying I don't got any underworld bands and never wanted any. for ele I got:

Cyclopeadean / freezing x2 / eye of org / advisor's wsg 48.



Anyway, I try to keep in mind the worth of the stats. For example could 2 hit equals 1 stam and such.

by the way, I would never take hit talents in elemental.

 

[Pukethirst]

Blade of eternal darkness is a waste of time to farm.. but if you get it Try it out! and be kind to inform us how good it really is



and its 39 passive spell power from Boa 1h mace by the way. But yes 29 if you take a 30sp on boa and 40sp on dagger enchant into accord.



I got all the gear you want to compare and I compared it all and I still don't have the right answer for every situation sorry.



Pick one if your not getting them all, but try get them all and it be up to your style what you will go with.



According to rings I was lying I don't got any underworld bands and never wanted any. for ele I got:

Cyclopeadean / freezing x2 / eye of org / advisor's wsg 48

I was actually lucky enough amidst my very first Mara farm for Enhancement gear to nab a Blade of Eternal Darkness. Its actually what originally inspired me to make a separate set other than enhancement in the first place.



I've had Blade of Eternal Darkness a long time, and though the proc is a little hard to notice, if you try to notice it you can. It does proc a decent amount, but if you do a quick think, 10% chance to proc 100 damage (doesn't get bigger with spell power) comes out to 100 damage over 10 casts on average, whereas the +29 passive spell power bonus from Blessed Hammer of Grace would match that every 3-4 casts, would it not? I'm not too bright on warcraft math and spell power coefficients, so clue me in if you know more.



I'll have to take a note on Discerning Eye of the Beast stacking.



I would like to see your Elemental spec/gear setup on armory sometime if you don't mind, or you can type it in. Atm you are double enhancement spec'd. I basically want to know how much spell hit you go with, and how you achieve the spell hit you have.



The main reason I debate these issues is due to the lack of stamina traded for spell power. How much is too much, what is needed and what is not. For example, if I perform all the tricks I had talked about in the initial post, I will basically end up with the exact same amount of spellpower, with no BoED proc and no Freezing Band procs, but I would gain 54 stamina, while still managing to achieve 5% spell hit. That's a lot to think about, going from 3,026 HP with BoED and Freezing Bands, to 3,566 HP with neither of those procs. I would also gain 18 intellect, 6 mp5, and 2 spirit as well.

 

[Kirise]

I've had Blade of Eternal Darkness a long time, and though the proc is a little hard to notice, if you try to notice it you can. It does proc a decent amount, but if you do a quick think, 10% chance to proc 100 damage (doesn't get bigger with spell power) comes out to 100 damage over 10 casts on average, whereas the +29 passive spell power bonus from Blessed Hammer of Grace would match that every 3-4 casts, would it not? I'm not too bright on warcraft math and spell power coefficients, so clue me in if you know more.

While I'm much stronger with my resto shaman than ele shaman knowledge, I can help with the WoWmath. Wowwiki's spellpower coefficient page says your lightning bolt gets 71% of spell power, chain lightning gets 125% over three targets, and shocks get around 39%. So, +29 spell power comes out to +21, +36, and +11 damage per cast, respectively. So yes, your Blessed Hammer of Grace surpasses the damage throughput of your BoED every 3-4 casts. Given that even an elemental shaman needs at least three casts to take someone down, plus the stamina and resilience from the Hammer, it looks to me like the Hammer will serve you better -- the burst from the BoED isn't enough to make a difference.

The main reason I debate these issues is due to the lack of stamina traded for spell power. How much is too much, what is needed and what is not. For example, if I perform all the tricks I had talked about in the initial post, I will basically end up with the exact same amount of spellpower, with no BoED proc and no Freezing Band procs, but I would gain 54 stamina, while still managing to achieve 5% spell hit. That's a lot to think about, going from 3,026 HP with BoED and Freezing Bands, to 3,566 HP with neither of those procs. I would also gain 18 intellect, 6 mp5, and 2 spirit as well.

It really depends on your comfort level. I decided to go a bit stamina-heavy, given the burst of the bracket, at just over 3700. If we include your Elemental Warding (6% overall damage reduction), then you would need just under 3500 health to match me. Meanwhile, Macktastic runs around with 2500 health plus the 6% talent, and most shamans find themselves somewhere in between. I steadily increased my stamina level until I felt I had enough health to keep me alive by a hair on a regular basis.



I'd love to use my freezing bands, but I have to admit that the pair of underworld bands I use gave me the extra health to live through many encounters that far outweighed the theoretical proc rate of the freezing bands. That said, a lot of people imply that the rings proc more frequently than the 2% proc rate says they should. That would turn the tide for me. A good way to measure it is to compare the number of freezing band procs with Wall of the Dead procs.



Hope this helps you reach an optimal gearset for your playstyle,



Bwappo

 

[Pukethirst]

While I'm much stronger with my resto shaman than ele shaman knowledge, I can help with the WoWmath. Wowwiki's spellpower coefficient page says your lightning bolt gets 71% of spell power, chain lightning gets 125% over three targets, and shocks get around 39%. So, +29 spell power comes out to +21, +36, and +11 damage per cast, respectively. So yes, your Blessed Hammer of Grace surpasses the damage throughput of your BoED every 3-4 casts. Given that even an elemental shaman needs at least three casts to take someone down, plus the stamina and resilience from the Hammer, it looks to me like the Hammer will serve you better -- the burst from the BoED isn't enough to make a difference.







It really depends on your comfort level. I decided to go a bit stamina-heavy, given the burst of the bracket, at just over 3700. If we include your Elemental Warding (6% overall damage reduction), then you would need just under 3500 health to match me. Meanwhile, Macktastic runs around with 2500 health plus the 6% talent, and most shamans find themselves somewhere in between. I steadily increased my stamina level until I felt I had enough health to keep me alive by a hair on a regular basis.



I'd love to use my freezing bands, but I have to admit that the pair of underworld bands I use gave me the extra health to live through many encounters that far outweighed the theoretical proc rate of the freezing bands. That said, a lot of people imply that the rings proc more frequently than the 2% proc rate says they should. That would turn the tide for me. A good way to measure it is to compare the number of freezing band procs with Wall of the Dead procs.



Hope this helps you reach an optimal gearset for your playstyle,



Bwappo

-Thanks for the input on spell power coefficients. I appreciate it and will get the heirloom weapon once I'm able to.



-As for the stamina debates, I would like to see a link to your armory. I looked up Bwappo on US and EU armory and couldn't find one. If you don't have your elemental set up on display, just type it out here. I'm a tad confused at how you manage to hit 3700 HP. I'd like to see your total spellpower after 3700 HP, and other such stats. Sounds interesting.



-Also, I want to know what you think about how much spell hit is needed. I believe the correct number is 5%, that's what I'm going with atm.



-Last, do you think pushback reduction is needed as a talent? Because if not, I can get a free 2% hit rating in talents, which can come out of my gear, which makes for better stamina/spell power gear instead of lackluster pieces (flashlight) for spell hit. (I personally atm do not think the pushback is needed all too much. Chain lightning is quick to cast, and lightning bolt I probably won't cast much of while being focus-fired.)



Just to give you an example of a stamina/spellpower/hit rating stat issue:



Example #1: Ban'thok Sash + Cyclopean Band + Greaves of Withering Despair + 2% hit in talents makes for 5% hit. Since I now do not need the flashlight trinket since I am at 5% hit, I can equip Discerning Eye of the Beast heirloom trinket for 17 spellpower.



Before this new way, I used to (am still doing it atm) do it this way:



Example #2: Flashlight + Greaves of Withering Despair would give me 5% hit, and for each piece of hit gear I use beyond 5%, I'm gaining stamina and losing spellpower. Chloromesh Girdle has 26 spellpower, whereas Banthok grants 12. That's 14 spell power traded off for 10 stamina, which is a big loss in comparison to other ways to build stats. If I can get the 5% needed hit rating without flashlight trinket, I can use the heirloom 17 spell power trinket. I did the math once, and if I get the hit rating through talents/banthok/cyclopean/boots and not get it off flashlight, I effectively lost 7 spell power and gained 18 stamina, which is much worth it.



Kinda tricky how that works.



WOW, this part is important. Ok what's going on here, check these edits:



EDIT #1: FREAKING A! Dangit. I just checked the talent calculator, and in order to get the 2% hit in talents, I at least have to invest 1 point in lower tiers to get to higher tiers, which means I can only effectively gain 1% hit from talents and not 2% without giving up end tier options. BEE-ESS!!!! Ugh. I'd have 4.17% hit. I wish I didn't need hit rating lol.



EDIT #2: Ok I put in the numbers on WoWhead.com. If you check their numbers, they say Ban'thok Sash's 8 hit rating grants 1.27% hit at lvl 49, and Flashlight trinket grants 3.04% hit at 49. That equates out to 4.31% hit, then, wouldn't it? Because if I check my own armory, Greaves of Withering Despair + Flashlight trinket grants the exact same number of hit rating, and armory says I have 5.07% hit rating. Ok 4.31% is different from 5.07%. Who is lying, or am I stupid?

 

[Kirise]

-As for the stamina debates, I would like to see a link to your armory. I looked up Bwappo on US and EU armory and couldn't find one. If you don't have your elemental set up on display, just type it out here. I'm a tad confused at how you manage to hit 3700 HP. I'd like to see your total spellpower after 3700 HP, and other such stats. Sounds interesting.

Heh heh heh! I forgot that twinkinfo removed the dropdown list of character armories for posters. Do a search for Cirise for my armory. =) ...And it's good to have you back in action in 49s!



I wasn't clear when I compared my numbers to yours. I'm exclusively resto, so my numbers won't match up to yours completely. As resto, I found my "sweet spot" at 3700 health, which gives me 300 spell power. I don't have an ele gearset other than using the flashlight, so I won't be much help there. I think you're right about needing 5% hit.

-Last, do you think pushback reduction is needed as a talent?

Without pushback reduction, you'll lose a full second of casting time when under attack by any dual-handed melee, for every non-instant cast. If I were only in situations where I could kite an attacker, I'd skip that talent. But more often than not, the "big moments" on battlegrounds are when I'm trying to land a heal on a teammate while I'm under duress, and even half a second of extra casting time is too much. For as powerful as your chain lightning and lightning bolts are, not taking that talent means you give me an extra second to land my big heal during a pitched battle. Don't give me that advantage =)



Here comes the arithmetic; skip this section if you want.



Here's how someone explained hit rating to me awhile back: before you cap your hit, every 1% of hit rating increases your damage throughput by 1%. If you average 400 dps (for the sake of argument; you probably do higher dps), then 1% is 4 dps. At 49, 8 hit rating = 1% hit. Now, for spell power to raise your dps by 1%, you plug in the spellpower coefficients from the previous post. Your lightning bolt gets 71% of spell power, chain lightning gets 125% over three targets, and shocks get around 39%. 0.79x=4, 1.25y=4, and 0.39z=4. That comes out to 5, 3, and 10 spell power needed to reach 4 dps more. Let's call that 6 spellpower, since you use your bolts more than your shocks. So we're saying that 8 hit (1% hit at 49) equals roughly 6 spellpower.



End of math.



Therefore, that high power flashlight with 24 hit equals at least 18 spell power when it comes to damage throughput. Remember, these are all low estimations, so it's likely that you'll see even more damage throughput. Finally, hit rating prevents what I would call "burst failure". Losing a little spellpower means each spell doesn't hit quite as strongly. But that's *nothing* compared to missing a spell altogether. When you miss a spell, that's like me not only healing your target for the amount of damage you would have done, but also stunning you for the duration of your cast time. That's why you want to be hit capped.



With that, I recommend you use all the hit items you listed. If 8 hit equals at least 6 spellpower, and many melee will require even more hit rating from you because of their defensive bonuses from agility, these items look much more appealing to an ele shaman. The heirloom spellpower trinket doesn't compare to the flashlight in this context.



As far as wowhead vs. armory stats, I don't have a good answer for you -- I ran into errors on both in the past. I can't speak to using talents for hit rating, either -- hopefully someone else can chime in with some answers.



I hope this helps!



Bwappo

 

[Pukethirst]

Heh heh heh! I forgot that twinkinfo removed the dropdown list of character armories for posters. Do a search for Cirise for my armory. =) ...And it's good to have you back in action in 49s!



I wasn't clear when I compared my numbers to yours. I'm exclusively resto, so my numbers won't match up to yours completely. As resto, I found my "sweet spot" at 3700 health, which gives me 300 spell power. I don't have an ele gearset other than using the flashlight, so I won't be much help there. I think you're right about needing 5% hit.







Without pushback reduction, you'll lose a full second of casting time when under attack by any dual-handed melee, for every non-instant cast. If I were only in situations where I could kite an attacker, I'd skip that talent. But more often than not, the "big moments" on battlegrounds are when I'm trying to land a heal on a teammate while I'm under duress, and even half a second of extra casting time is too much. For as powerful as your chain lightning and lightning bolts are, not taking that talent means you give me an extra second to land my big heal during a pitched battle. Don't give me that advantage =)



Here comes the arithmetic; skip this section if you want.



Here's how someone explained hit rating to me awhile back: before you cap your hit, every 1% of hit rating increases your damage throughput by 1%. If you average 400 dps (for the sake of argument; you probably do higher dps), then 1% is 4 dps. At 49, 8 hit rating = 1% hit. Now, for spell power to raise your dps by 1%, you plug in the spellpower coefficients from the previous post. Your lightning bolt gets 71% of spell power, chain lightning gets 125% over three targets, and shocks get around 39%. 0.79x=4, 1.25y=4, and 0.39z=4. That comes out to 5, 3, and 10 spell power needed to reach 4 dps more. Let's call that 6 spellpower, since you use your bolts more than your shocks. So we're saying that 8 hit (1% hit at 49) equals roughly 6 spellpower.



End of math.



Therefore, that high power flashlight with 24 hit equals at least 18 spell power when it comes to damage throughput. Remember, these are all low estimations, so it's likely that you'll see even more damage throughput. Finally, hit rating prevents what I would call "burst failure". Losing a little spellpower means each spell doesn't hit quite as strongly. But that's *nothing* compared to missing a spell altogether. When you miss a spell, that's like me not only healing your target for the amount of damage you would have done, but also stunning you for the duration of your cast time. That's why you want to be hit capped.



With that, I recommend you use all the hit items you listed. If 8 hit equals at least 6 spellpower, and many melee will require even more hit rating from you because of their defensive bonuses from agility, these items look much more appealing to an ele shaman. The heirloom spellpower trinket doesn't compare to the flashlight in this context.



As far as wowhead vs. armory stats, I don't have a good answer for you -- I ran into errors on both in the past. I can't speak to using talents for hit rating, either -- hopefully someone else can chime in with some answers.



I hope this helps!



Bwappo

Yeah thanks for the info, I looked you up on armory. I'll have to try your talent spec for resto sometime. I have yet to be resto, and melee imo gets kited sooo easily in 49s.



As for the pushback, I think overall its not as important, because I'm elemental. Healing I would definitely get the pushback talent no matter what. Pushback won't apply to my healing spells as elemental, and if I'm chucking lightning against, say, a hunter, most of the time I either run or only chain lightning/shock/heal/chain lightning again. Lightning bolt is too slow too chuck no matter what imo while being targeted, and a 1.5 sec cast chain lightning seems to go off quickly regardless.



As far as the hit rating issue, I'm definitely trying to achieve 5% spell hit no matter what, just looking at different ways of going about achieving it, whether through gear or talents. You said 8 hit rating = 1% hit. I have 32 hit rating, and according to armory that is 5.07% spell hit. Says the same thing in game, with no buffs up. And wowhead, if you just do simple addition (maybe this part is wrong but its what I did.), look up greaves of withering despair and flashlight trinket, and tell me how they add up to 5.07% hit rating from what wowhead tells you. It doesn't even add up to 5.07% melee hit rating. I asked wowhead forums, and a 1K+ posts guy replied "They're both right" and my post was deleted. Still don't get it.



If you Cirise or anyone else has a Ban'thok Sash/Cyclopean Band/Greaves of Withering Despair on one shaman, please equip them in game and tell me how much spell hit rating it is together according to in-game. Because I don't have Ban'thok or Cyclopean Band atm. I'm so confused on hit rating conversions atm.

 

[Kirise]

You threw me a curveball. I looked up the gear you mentioned, and saw two different scales for hit rating. Everything except the flashlight was on one scale, while the flashlight seemed to be on another scale. I ran into this problem before, then remembered the answer on Wowwiki: spell hit and melee hit work differently. Wowhead is using the melee hit conversion for the flashlight, and you actually get more hit % as a caster. The guy wasn't helpful when he said "both are correct", but he was technically right.



What this means for you is that the Flashlight actually gives you 3.8% hit rating instead of 3%. While you hit cap at 4% (instead of the 5% melee needs), night elves get a 2% resistance to nature attacks, so you might want to go for 6% hit rating to overcome that, and to counter the nature magic resistance that comes from the popular green dragonscale pieces. Or you might decide that 4% is good enough and pump up other stats.



Let us know if your in-game results corroborate what wowwiki says.



Bwappo

 

[Pukethirst]

You threw me a curveball. I looked up the gear you mentioned, and saw two different scales for hit rating. Everything except the flashlight was on one scale, while the flashlight seemed to be on another scale. I ran into this problem before, then remembered the answer on Wowwiki: spell hit and melee hit work differently. Wowhead is using the melee hit conversion for the flashlight, and you actually get more hit % as a caster. The guy wasn't helpful when he said "both are correct", but he was technically right.



What this means for you is that the Flashlight actually gives you 3.8% hit rating instead of 3%. While you hit cap at 4% (instead of the 5% melee needs), night elves get a 2% resistance to nature attacks, so you might want to go for 6% hit rating to overcome that, and to counter the nature magic resistance that comes from the popular green dragonscale pieces. Or you might decide that 4% is good enough and pump up other stats.



Let us know if your in-game results corroborate what wowwiki says.



Bwappo

Thanks for that spell hit WoWWiki chart. Now I for sure know that I need 4% hit and not 5% hit. 6% hit for night elves, which I will achieve, and thanks for that advice. ;-)



The flashlight melee hit display issue on wowhead sounds right. According to wowhead, Greaves of Withering Despair grant 1.27% hit at 49. 3.8 + 1.27 = 5.07% hit, which is what I was at. Now I can do this fairly simply, cool stuff.



It seems to be that every ~6.3 hit rating = 1% spell hit?



I might be good anyhow though, as since I have 5% hit with just boots and trinket, and can only spend 1 talent point, not 2 in hit rating because of a lame tier issue, I can jump right up to 6% hit for those pesky NElves, and maybe nab 1/3 of the mp5 talent while I'm at it. I think the pushback talent is great for healing and not elemental, and I'll have to see how precious it truly is by trying BGs without it.

 

[Kirise]

It seems to be that every ~6.3 hit rating = 1% spell hit?

Yep, that's how my arithmetic is coming out, too.

I think the pushback talent is great for healing and not elemental, and I'll have to see how precious it truly is by trying BGs without it.

That's absolutely the best way to find out -- pros and cons don't really come alive until a couple of night's worth of BGs shows you some results. It took a lot of convincing for people to tell me to give up instawolf on my 59 resto shaman in order to get Tidal Waves. Looked pretty dumb to me, and I sorely missed instawolf the first night I went without it. By the end of the second night, I was sold on Tidal Waves, and haven't looked back since.

 

[Falkor]

I'd love to use my freezing bands, but I have to admit that the pair of underworld bands I use gave me the extra health to live through many encounters that far outweighed the theoretical proc rate of the freezing bands. That said, a lot of people imply that the rings proc more frequently than the 2% proc rate says they should. That would turn the tide for me. A good way to measure it is to compare the number of freezing band procs with Wall of the Dead procs.

cant really compare wall of dead to freezing band. WoD has 3% chance to proc every hit, freezing bad has 1%. judging from your math work on spell power coefficients and shit you're pretty good @ math. than you know that its all random. each hit gives a 1% chance to proc it...but with law of large #s and shit you could get back to back to back, etc procs or go awhile w/o seeing one. over a large # of hits it wont go off that often, but with a small sample pool its pretty random, can have a bunch, can have none, can have 1-2. could find it very useful when you need to kite. but since ele has earthbind that roots, and when glyphed you have a shield, kiting/not being kited is a bit easier; so you should be fine using another ring. same for wall but that should average out to proccing more since it has 3% chance.