Doom and Gloom

[Rayekk]

I’m not sure where to start this rant, but I’m frustrated, and so I’ll place it here, in hopes that other will join in. I’ve never subscribed to the theory that “Blizzard hates Twinks†or that “Blizzard doesn’t care about Twinks†or that we’ve second-hand citizens within the game. But with the upcoming 3.1 patch, and all it’s lower-level class balancing changes is really starting to make me change my thinking. I mean, when you start looking at the changes as a whole, it IS starting to look like they’re out to end our favored pastime.



So far, here are the changes I see being the most detrimental to who we play and what we do:

Nerfing selected enchants: +100 HP requires level 30, but +4 to stats & +150 HP to chest haven’t changes? Way to send mixed messages. WTH are the plans for glove, weapon and feet enchants?



Level requirements on Librams: I’m still trying to understand this one- I mean, who even uses these anymore other than the twinking community? It’s not like you can even do these quests easily at level 50-55, so really they’re looking for leveling characters to stop and jump through the hoops required for a minor head buff on a piece of gear that’ll be replaced almost as soon as you enchant it?



Leg & shoulder patches nerfed: okay, this one is justified to a point (after all, in the 19’s, before BoA’s you really only had one or two, three tops, in the way of shoulders to choose from) as the shoulder patches and BC leg patches were never really meant for the lower levels. But after allowing the legs and (Naxx) enchants for more than a year, they’re stopping/removing them now?



Level requirements on the fishing boots, with the fishing hat and the AGM to follow shortly IMHO: this one chaps my ass more than any other. These tree items are extremely difficult to get, and require more than deep pockets. Dedication, skill-up, coordination and persistence is what is required to obtain these items; we earned them! We should be able to keep them!



Professions Buffs Scaled/reset: this is another of those “he-said/she said†things- I do agree that they where overpowered in the 19’s and 29’s, but again, those how have them worked for them, and earned them. And while I can live with them being scaled, if Blizzard makes them down-grade (450 becomes 225) that’s downright poor form- after all, a twink with 450 mining can smelt titansteel and make money at it. They earned it, and shouldn’t be taken away.



Stats on Quivers/Ammo pouches being integrated into the Hunter class: Wha??? There HAS to be a better way to do this and keep the in-game balance (ammo perhaps? They already have level restrictions on ammo and everything). Unless they really only want to see hunters PvPing in the lover levels.



So, I know that the fist argument is going to be the skill trumps gear, and skill trumps class (AKA Skill>everything else) however, I just do not agree. For that argument to be true, that means that any class can beat any other class in a given duel 1v1. Now, anyone who’s done an arena knows that in the 1v1, with no where to LoS and no team strategy available, there is always one class that will come out on top: Hunters. Sure, other classes can get a shot or two (or three, if you’re lucky) in on a hunter, but at the end of the day, with three different slows the farthest range ability and the addition of a “harasser†(IE their pet) no other class has a chance, in the long run.



Seriously, these upcoming patches are depressing any way you look at them. Should all these changes make it into the live patch, I can say that I, for one, will retire my twinks and bid a fond farewell to the 19 & 29 brackets, and go back to end-game raiding/PvP, or even leave the game completely. Which sucks, because twinking is my “relaxing†side fun from raiding- and end-game PvP is not nearing as…. civil as twinking is today (I have yet to see any honorable, non-epeen-obsessed end-game players… IN MY OWN FACTION! )



Am I alone in this feeling of doom and gloom that 3.1 is bringing? Is anyone else contemplating retirement, greener pastures or quitting all together?

 

[Fìalotta]

Huge wall crit of qq

 

[Zuty]

While I no longer play WoW (after a LONG run playing it), I hope my two cents count.



-Leg armour and the proff. buffs I agree with nerfing.

-Librams ... I kinda got a bit sick, but I got over it.

-Level requirements for Fishing Boots - every twink I knew had these and they will be missed, but with the recent changes to other low level items an alternative can be found.

-All the love for Hunter; while I don't find it fair I have noticed a patern with Blizz. Patch A buffs Class 1, Patch 2 buffs Class 1 (again...), Patch 3 buffs Classes 2-10 so they can compete with Class 1. Rinse and Repeate with a new class being buffed and a few patches later everyone getting a buff to counter them. Eventually Blizz will do this all over again and in a few months everyone will be saying how OP Mages.

-Your statement on Hunters v Anyone: Nothing is impossible, but does this mean that a Holy Pally and a Hunter at 19 will be evenly matched? No. (Unless the Hunter goes AFK during the fight or is new to playing a Hunter) I don't think any one class should be (nor viewed as) vastly superior to all others.



While you will chew my head off for this, PVP really does come down to skill. Gear plays a major roll, but if your not casting the right spell or using the right item at the right time your dead. But even so, it does come down to luck also. Maybe you dodge that killing blow in time to get off a big heal?



The way I see it:



50(Gear)+40(Skill)+10(Luck)=PVP



So yes, gear plays more of a role. But than again, if your not up to par gear-wise against another player your odds are much lower. If your on the same playing field with gear, you may come out on top. As much as I hate to say it, some classes/specs are vastly superior to others. And while I would love to play a Spirit stacking Boomkin in WSG at 19, I am very limited in my spells/talents. While I may be very good V. other players, theres always a counter and eventually I will get taken down by a certain class/spec.



When I left, Rogues were the most OP class in any bracket. Countless threads, posts, and videos were made to show just how OP Rogues were (IE. A rogue DWing the starter dagger being able to take down a tier 2 Pally in a 1v1.) But this cycle is nothing new. Elemental Shamans were once looked down upon, (mostly the reason I leveled elem from 1-70 ever since WoW launched) but near the end of TBC going into WotLK they got a HUGE boost in damage out put as well as loads of new tricks. And I am sure every class has gone through these changes; Its just the Hunters turn now.



I can see why three slows (Concus Shot + Traps + Hyenas/Spiders) can be annoying, but Blizzard may just be tinkering with new ideas. And even when you time your CDs to avoid being trapped and slowed, once you manage to attack the Hunter your hit with a Wingclip. But remember when Wingclip had the chance to immobilize you rather while still slowing you? That was dumped recently, (I belive) but it was a major staple for Hunters when I played. Eventually, all these slows will be nerfed or fixed in some way.



But thats just me ...



~Zuty

 

[Rayekk]

Post Deleted - Naturaltalnt

Thanks for your non-productive post. You're opinion is what I'm looking for. How does the upcoming patch make you feel? Are they out to end us? Or is this a challenge to our resolve? If you twink, this will affect you! So, again, what are your thought about it?!?

 

[Rayekk]

thanks Zuty, awesome post. (And no, I'm not gonna chew your head, or anyone else’s, off for an opinion I solicited!).



I agree that you need to have skill. I’m all for the pure skill argument, however, its when one class vastly out-classes another in a system with ever strict rules, skill becomes moot.



As an example, I’ll use boxing vs. mixed martial arts competitions. In mixed martial arts, skill is very important to winning. A lighter, “weaker” but more experienced fighter can beat (sometimes easily) a bigger, stronger and less experienced fighter (A true Skill>gear argument) mostly because there are no limits to form, style or discipline in your fighting (wrestling, boxing, kick boxing, ground fighting, or any form of open-hand fighting). Skill is #1, and creativity, keeping your opponent off-balance, can lead to victory; a kick-boxer can also use ground fighting if it’s an advantage against how he’s fighting. Now Boxing is a different story. There are very strict rules as to what punches you can throw, what parts of the body you can hit, no kicking, no grappling, etc. As a result, if you put a welter weight class in with a heavyweight, he’s going to get slaughtered, because he’s constrained (or some would say, more even).



We’re all “boxing” in twink pvp- we’re working within the rules of our classes, and ideally we are all in the same weight-class; but the current state of hunter DPS and abilities, added to the upcoming 3.1 DPS increase effectively makes them “heavyweights,” even without the added benefits of twinking. We’ve used our skill and gear to combat this to a point (alas, I still have not found an efficient way to kill a hunter that didn’t involve LoS in some fashion) but intimately I think these changes are going to hurt more than just twinking: I think that they’ll discourage cloth-classes from PvPing completely.

 

[Jadyn]

Since you're asking for other people's reactions, I'll post mine before finishing reading your post.



My reactions have changed over time.



First, I was worried, but excited. Blizzard was actually paying attention to lower levels! Maybe they're actually interested in improving things, even if their idea of "improve" is probably different from our's.



Second, I was concerned about the balance issues, as has been stated all over the place, especially for 39s and 49s. I don't mind "nerfs to twinks", I love that. It makes it easier for everyone to make more twinks, and makes pugs more of a challenge. I didn't like that they haven't changed any dps enchants, and now I'm worried that they won't.



Then, imo a bigger problem: I found myself losing interest. I think what's really got a lot of us in doom and gloom is that none of us have any good idea of what 3.1 is going to look like once it goes live. Sure, some things seem set in stone, but other things may get changed or may not. While "xp in bgs" could be done in many different ways, I think a lot of people don't want to risk spending time and money playing toons that may be rendered pointless in 3.1.



I haven't logged on for 7 days, and I was off the official forums for about 5 (the longest I've been off the forums in almost a year). I'd call that doom and gloom, for sure.



But I really don't think it's because of these nerfs and such. Maybe it's just that the idea "Blizzard doesn't care" just really sank in finally. Quite possible in my case actually. >.< So I didn't feel like sinking more effort into something that could possibly die in a few weeks.



However, even with that, I've remembered why I play the game: premades and team games with people I enjoy playing with. And that's something you can't really do at 80, and maybe we won't be able to do in the future, so I'd best do them right now while I can.

 

[Fìalotta]

Thanks for your non-productive post. You're opinion is what I'm looking for. How does the upcoming patch make you feel? Are they out to end us? Or is this a challenge to our resolve? If you twink, this will affect you! So, again, what are your thought about it?!?

Yes i do twink but im not worried abouth twinks getting nerfed im doing it to relax in a easier bracket and beeing good gear makes it even more chilled.

 

[Mother Goose]

-Leg armour and the proff. buffs I agree with nerfing, same.

-Librams ... I kinda got a bit sick, but I got over it. I got very sick here, but likewise I have gotten over it.



-Level requirements for Fishing Boots - every twink I knew had these and they will be missed, but with the recent changes to other low level items an alternative can be found.



~Zuty

I've done the courtesy of highlighting the part that makes the most sense here, but how does getting rid of one of the said options available a good thing? Especially when the people who got them worked extremely hard for them. If there are other alternatives available to those who don't/cant' get fishing boots, why are they being gotten rid of?



Why would BC enchants NOT get a lvl 35+ requirement?

 

[Zuty]

How does getting rid of one of the said options available a good thing?

Think of it this way. If you didn't have the fishing boots, you weren't considered a twink at 19. The boots (and hat) became a staple for every class/faction mostly because you could get TBC chants on it that made the piece of gear a pile of Stam (+24 Stam/240 HP or +21 Stam and Minor Running Speed/210 HP) or a way to grab +10 hit/crit (~5% hit and ~3% crit) on top of having +12 stam/120 HP. No other item dared come close to it. So if you don't have the time to get the boots or you try and try and try again and never get the boots, you'll never be respected as a twink or be up to snuff with other twinks.

Especially when the people who got them worked extremely hard for them.

Like I said in my other post on this matter, hats off to those who did get it. You seriously deserve a free Turtle Mount for all the work you went through. But items come and go, its the cure of playing an ever changing MMO.

If there are other alternatives available to those who don't/cant' get fishing boots, why are they being gotten rid of?

I assume you mean "Why are the fishing boots being taken away when there are other alternatives?" If not please respond.



Well I mostly covered this already, but now players will be using level appropriate gear. Using items that are not obtainable (or shouldn't be) at your level should be just that, not obtainable. But if you do manage to get them, well done. How would you feel facing DirtyBishop and his epic level 70 trinkets that he got by spending weeks grinding rep while dead with the Skyguard? Obviously a level 19 shouldn't have these trinkets, but they are there and available for use. If that had not been fixed EVERYONE would be grabbing those trinkets. That's what happened with the Fishing Boots.



Some twink was like "Golly gee, I can wear those and slap a TBC chant on them!" and he ran with it. Others followed and Blizz was really lazy with fixing this. 3.1 is really Blizz doing some much needed cleaning (dusting off that ol' to do list)

Why would BC enchants NOT get a lvl 35+ requirement?

Not sure I understand what your asking here. So please post back.







I answered as best as I can, hope that helps.



~Zuty

 

[Mother Goose]

The whole point is if they put a nerf on BC enchants then it fixes this whole situation. People who worked hard for the boots can keep them, and as you said those who don't want or can't do the work for them can choose one of the many alternatives.



Also, since when were fishing gear not supposed to be obtainable by anyone who can fish? Where on earth did you hear/come up with that?

 

[Naturaltalnt]

The first couple changes I though Blizzard was doing a good job and finally taking advances toward twinks, now I think they are just out to get us .

 

[Rayekk]

The first couple changes I though Blizzard was doing a good job and finally taking advances toward twinks, now I think they are just out to get us .

Yeah- I'm starting to wonder that myself (hence the topic)...

On the bright side, I never got rid of my old gear, so, with the exception of some new pants, I "could" be viable in the 19's, so long as I'm not seen by the hunters...



And I guess this will end my career as a flag carrier, which is too bad because I really like that part of the game. And I guess I'll have to start farming the AH for more killer (read as boatload o' cash) daggers

 

[Zuty]

The whole point is if they put a nerf on BC enchants then it fixes this whole situation. People who worked hard for the boots can keep them, and as you said those who don't want or can't do the work for them can choose one of the many alternatives.

Oh I agree 110% on that comment. Lowering their iLvl would still turn some heads, but at least all your work didn't go to waste.

Also, since when were fishing gear not supposed to be obtainable by anyone who can fish? Where on earth did you hear/come up with that?

Not 100% sure what your talking about here.



~Zuty

 

[tongtonk]

Quick question - can anyone point me to a forum that summarizes all the changes coming in patch 3.1? I am close to finishing a 49 twink after being away from the game for about a year and I stumbled onto this business. Glad I did as I was about to purchase leg armor.

Also - when is this patch scheduled to go live?



Noob questions, over.

 

[Mother Goose]

Well I mostly covered this already, but now players will be using level appropriate gear. Using items that are not obtainable (or shouldn't be) at your level should be just that, not obtainable.

~Zuty

You made it sound like you were saying fishing gear should not be obtainable by a level 19 character with these two sentences, that's why I said that.



In the case of fishing gear, it's an event (the fishing tournament) meant for anyone with the fishing skill to compete in if they so desire. So they don't fit this tag of stuff that shouldn't be obtainable.

 

[Druiddroid]

Second, I was concerned about the balance issues, as has been stated all over the place, especially for 39s and 49s. I don't mind "nerfs to twinks", I love that. It makes it easier for everyone to make more twinks, and makes pugs more of a challenge. I didn't like that they haven't changed any dps enchants, and now I'm worried that they won't.

BoA items are changed to grant more SP on PTR.



also, 3.1 isn't live yet. noone knows what the patch actually holds.

Then, imo a bigger problem: I found myself losing interest. I think what's really got a lot of us in doom and gloom is that none of us have any good idea of what 3.1 is going to look like once it goes live. Sure, some things seem set in stone, but other things may get changed or may not. While "xp in bgs" could be done in many different ways, I think a lot of people don't want to risk spending time and money playing toons that may be rendered pointless in 3.1.



I haven't logged on for 7 days, and I was off the official forums for about 5 (the longest I've been off the forums in almost a year). I'd call that doom and gloom, for sure.



But I really don't think it's because of these nerfs and such. Maybe it's just that the idea "Blizzard doesn't care" just really sank in finally. Quite possible in my case actually. >.< So I didn't feel like sinking more effort into something that could possibly die in a few weeks.

blizzard hasn't cared about twinks, aside from adding DMH and changes to the fang items (etc..that one patch). however, twinks will still exist after 3.1, even if many of the buffs are taken away.



i think BGs will be more challenging and skill based than before. puggers will be able to compete more. i just hope that people will get over the work they have lost and realize that the changes aren't that bad. i realize for some, the interest in the game comes from aquiring really good gear. but i like to see the picture of what BGs will be like.

 

[Mother Goose]

I am one of those that loves the reward from grinding for that special piece of equipment. IE. Revelosh Gloves/Shoulders of enter perfect choice here. Or Deadman's Hand. Or Fishing gear. Or Atalai Breastplate of perfect choice here. Or Bloomsprout Headpiece. Or Emissary Cuffs of the perfect choice here. Or Charged Gear of the perfect choice here. Or Tidal Charm. Or AGM. You get the point.



All of these items take incredible dedication to get (and a bit of luck), and while they all might be best in-slot items only a few are really overpowered... but guess what you earned that.



The reward/feeling I get when I aquire said items and look back on it afterwards is great and something I look forward to when playing this game.

 

[Rayekk]

Quick question - can anyone point me to a forum that summarizes all the changes coming in patch 3.1? I am close to finishing a 49 twink after being away from the game for about a year and I stumbled onto this business. Glad I did as I was about to purchase leg armor.

Also - when is this patch scheduled to go live?



Noob questions, over.

well, not sure there is a 49's one yet- but maybe the 29's will help:

http://twinkinfo.com/forums/f5/changes-affecting-29-twinks-in-patch-3-1-t1164/

 

[Boris_amj]

Well,



I mostly agree with Rayekk post.



Personally, if Blizzard puts a level requirement for the fishing Hat and Boots (and possibly the AGM) I will definitely abandon WoW altogether.



Fishing Gear and AGM has always been the hallmark of a good twink.

Sure, you can buy yourself your Shadowfang, your Nethercleft, your Assassin's blade, etc.

But getting the fishing items requires personal effort.

Getting them is in itself one of the best achievements for us.



Take that away from me and it is like I was mugged in plain daylight by the people I pay to play.



Do you know how excruciatingly boring raiding has become nowadays ?

My guild is obssesed to get everyone geared up for Ulduar.

But wait, all those Valorous gear we're so painfully getting will be immediately overriden by the new gear.

I have that sinking feeling I got when I realised that my imba level 70 gear was as obsolete as being in greens.



So yes, I twink.

I find twinking a welcome break from the stupid rep/gear grinding at level 80.

Twinking is a very important part of my WoW life. I am the GM of a twink guild and take special pride in looking after it.

Do you know what the best use for my Grand Ice Mammoth is ?

Of course, to help twinks get to the boosting instance faster, or levelling up mining/herb in a hostile area.

I'm even helping one get his Explorer tabard.

Other than that, who the hell would need a passenger mount costing 8k gold for other than epeen-flexing purposes ?



Blizzard could have simply added XP to BGs and that would have been a swift end to twinking.

Instead, they try the "salami" tactics: slice away a few things at a time in the hope people don't stampede out of the game.

How dumb do they think we are ?

 

[Rayekk]

The salami tactic is a good way to put it. I know that the PTR isn't law, and it has a small chance of not making it to the game, but really, the fact of the matter is, more than 90% of the nerfs we see there today will make it in on patch day. And that makes me sad more than anything else. I've taken great pride in what I'd built with Rayekk; full fishing gear, multiple gear sets (FC, field DPS and Ambush sets) Silverwing Sentinel PvP gear & tabard and battle standard; the only thing I’m short is the AGM, and I got 4 tokens before I decided it wasn’t worth the frustration (I’m proud of the fact that I got all 4 with no assistance- just me in my 19).



It is Blizzard’s game, and they can choose what/how to change it as they see fit. I don’t feel that I’m “owed” anything other than my server being up when I log on. It is disappointing to see these drastic changes all rolling out in one patch. It reminds me when they launched the massive influx of PvP-specific gear in BC. I could see the balancing need there: PvE-geared people where dominating hardcore PvP players, mostly because the PvP side didn’t want to raid in order to get the best gear possible; they just wanted the challenge of a live opponent. Of course, many say that PvP gear has gone too far the other way, making end-game PvP now one-sided to the resilience stacker, so they nerfed resilience; and through all of this, twinking largely remained unchanged, with a few key innovations here and there (mostly in the form of leg patches and enchants).



I’m not going to be dramatic and claim that I’ll quit wow, burn my copies of the game and start a right-wing anti-Blizzard movement from within Hello Kitty Adventure Island, but I’m still disappointed and hurt that they would want to take away even the things we had to work hard for, like the fishing boots. While I’ll continue to play in end-game, I do know that, if things continue this way, that Rayekk will be the most expensive bank alt on my server.