Does Morality Exist?

Doop

Legend
*Read my entire post or don't bother replying*
The 18th century philosopher David Hume once said that "one cannot derive an ought from an is". In other words, he claimed that one cannot get a value from a fact.

Morality is simply the sum of a number of chemical reactions in our brains. These chemical reactions make us feel guilt when we hurt others ("sin"), and in general compel us to be kind to one another. Why are we compelled to act like this?

At first, altruism (empathy) seems counter-intuitive for an organism. How does being kind benefit oneself? If you read The Selfish Gene (not that you have to have read it if you are reading this thread), you know that genes control development and guide evolution, not the organism itself. So why do we act morally?

Consider this hypothetical scenario (far better examples can be read in The Selfish Gene):
There is a family of 5 wolves in the Canadian wilderness. The mother, father, and three offspring wolves obviously have similar genes because they are related. A hungry bear approaches the family of wolves.

The father wolf defends his family against the bear, giving his family time to escape. The father wolf dies in the act of defending his family. Why did the father do this? Doesn't evolution tell us that it is in the wolf's best interest to save his own life instead?

Remember that the dead father wolf has just saved three offspring who each have half of his genetic information. If the father wolf had left his family to potentially die to the bear, the father wolf would have lost representation in the gene pool.

So why does a wolf care about his representation in a gene pool? Isn't he too stupid to even know what that means? He doesn't, and yes. Let's look at that scenario in a different light.

Assume the wolf never had the genetic impulse to defend his family. His offspring would be extremely likely to die to one cause or another, and the gene pool would therefore have less genes of non-altruism (sorry for the confusing phrasing. I was trying to say that there are now less genes that disregard empathy).

If you care about people who share your genes, you are literally passing on the impulse to care about people through your offspring.

But what about humans? We care about our families a lot, but we also care about people who aren't related to us. Why?

The scenario I gave about the wolves is just one where an individual's genes are more represented in the gene pool because of self-sacrifice, but there are tons more not involving families. Consider the benefits of pack mentality.

We know that humans were once a migrant species who needed to defend themselves against predators. We also know that humans hunted with large groups of people who were only vaguely genetically related to them.

If humans couldn't empathize with other humans who they weren't related to, and just killed or stole from non-related humans, they could obviously not reap the benefits of living in a pack, and would die a swift death living on their own.

So, humans who didn't feel moral obligations (chemically, in the brain) to get along with others would die and would have less of a representation in the gene pool. Gradually, humans became more and more moral. Of course, this is only one of a billion ways altruism helps organisms spread their genes.

Thus, "general morality" toward all humans was born in us, and our advanced brains can now see how morality systematically evolved in our species.

To conclude, morality does exist. But morality is just a set of chemical impulses that were needed for humans to survive. Morality is not "metaphysical", and if tommorow all moral organisms were wiped out in a meteor shower then the universe wouldn't "give a shit".

Is a bacteria (a living organism, remember) that results in a million human deaths "evil"? Is a playful lion cub that kills a rabbit "evil"? We are all compelled to be moral, but remember that chemicals are the drive, and nothing else.

Emotions often make us contradict plain facts so we don't lose our minds by rejecting common faith and principles. Pretend you are a cold hearted bastard like me for a minute and suspend all morals, they have no place in reality, outside our subjective minds.
 
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Sorry it's so long. Feel free to post rebuttals (although you are wrong if you disagree), but remember to leave your ego and emotions out of your answer.
 
(although you are wrong if you disagree)
I'm sure this will be a huge motivation for people to have an open discussion with you : /

Since you've already decided I am wrong, I see no point drafting a response ;)
 
"Morality is simply the sum of a number of chemical reactions in our brains." That's a bold statement amigo ;o)

I don't deny the influence of genetic imperative - I just don't allow it 100% capacity to compel all actions.

Out of curiosity - Is this a treaty on promoting (or excusing) sociopathy? Or denying the power and plausibility of religion? Or Duty or Honor? What is the exact point of this post?

Additionally I think the title is misleading - you are not denying the existence of Morality but categorizing the root cause differently than the norm in our culture.

And - read some Plato - I think your view of a subjective reality and claiming to see that subjective reality (while others cannot by inference) is base and presumptuous and a little teen-angsty.

OK - it's my turn to be both presumptuous and pompous :p : It is the animal that is subjected to Reality - it is the Human that chooses Morality.

"Pretend you are a cold hearted bastard like me for a minute and suspend all morals" - I think you just need a hug. Or a time out.
 
Doesn't evolution tell us that it is in the wolf's best interest to save his own life instead?

Is flawed. The "selfish gene" book suggests our proitys are to defend our genes a.k.a the rest of the wolfs children have his gene thus his genes will live on.
 
Pretend you are a cold hearted bastard like me for a minute and suspend all morals

It takes 47 muscles in the human mouth to frown. It takes 18 to smile. It takes 3 to pull a trigger.

So smile while shooting people. It's easier than frowning.
 
I'm sure this will be a huge motivation for people to have an open discussion with you : /

Since you've already decided I am wrong, I see no point drafting a response ;)

Yeah I know, that was just a little bit of very dry humor sorry lol. I just feel weird saying "feel free to disagree" since science proves my point beyond any doubt.
 
"Morality is simply the sum of a number of chemical reactions in our brains." That's a bold statement amigo ;o)

I don't deny the influence of genetic imperative - I just don't allow it 100% capacity to compel all actions.

Out of curiosity - Is this a treaty on promoting (or excusing) sociopathy? Or denying the power and plausibility of religion? Or Duty or Honor? What is the exact point of this post?

Additionally I think the title is misleading - you are not denying the existence of Morality but categorizing the root cause differently than the norm in our culture.

And - read some Plato - I think your view of a subjective reality and claiming to see that subjective reality (while others cannot by inference) is base and presumptuous and a little teen-angsty.

OK - it's my turn to be both presumptuous and pompous :p : It is the animal that is subjected to Reality - it is the Human that chooses Morality.

"Pretend you are a cold hearted bastard like me for a minute and suspend all morals" - I think you just need a hug. Or a time out.

Here is a grade-A example of someone going on the defensive even though I never attacked anyone. Tell me what part of my post was "angsty" or "pompous". You are the one that took my post personally (not that I'm going to treat you like a fucking child). So who is the pompous one? You're the one who condescended me for making a legitimate post.

Anyway, ignoring the insults and getting to the actual information now. There is no purpose in this post other than to open people's eyes to the origin of morality, and to show that it is not some omnipresent force in the universe. I have no other intention, and I'm not trying to discourage morality, just trying to show how it began.

Yeah I know the title is misleading, sorry. Some of my other posts got no reply because the titles were kind of dry, so I made it a little more "buzzy". Like I said, morality, of course, does exist.

And - read some Plato - I think your view of a subjective reality and claiming to see that subjective reality (while others cannot by inference) is base and presumptuous and a little teen-angsty.

This is a little too postmodernist for me, as if I'm trying to deny reality or something? I'm not living in another dimension here, and I definitely don't think I'm superior to anyone. I'm simply talking about the origin of morals and how it's interesting how they are institutionalized (though I'm GLAD that they are) when they had an evolutionary genesis like any other characteristic. Once again, I don't know how I was being "teen-angsty", that's just in the eye of the beholder. Obviously I didn't write this like I was Richard Dawkins or anything. Remember this is just the tavern section of a WoW twinking website, lol.

OK - it's my turn to be both presumptuous and pompous. I think you just need a hug. Or a time out.It is the animal that is subjected to Reality - it is the Human that chooses Morality.

Whatever you say. As if that second sentence I quoted isn't the most pretentious I've read in a while. When I called myself a "cold-hearted bastard" it was sarcastic because I knew people like you would treat me like I was simply because I was bringing up a controversial issue.
Your last sentence is actually false, people don't "choose" morality. That's my whole point. And let me ask you this: if you didn't just cop out of recognizing the implications of my post by calling my argument "childish", would it have made a difference? No. It doesn't matter who gave the argument or how, just whether it's true or not. Read The Selfish Gene by someone you can't condescend and maybe you'll take my thoughts to heart.
 
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Is flawed. The "selfish gene" book suggests our proitys are to defend our genes a.k.a the rest of the wolfs children have his gene thus his genes will live on.

Yeah I know that... that's why I phrased it as a question. I was showing the common thinking pattern of someone who thought the individual mattered in evolution, not the genes.
 
It takes 47 muscles in the human mouth to frown. It takes 18 to smile. It takes 3 to pull a trigger.

So smile while shooting people. It's easier than frowning.

Haha, don't worry about me I'll be okay. That was sarcasm anyway, just trying to throw in a little dry humor.
 
Very interesting read. You were pretty spot to be honest, didn't really see anything i could disagree on. Just to make things clear, your basically saying that human emotions are based off of chemical reactions(true fact) and that human morality(or morality in general?) is subjective or perhaps solely based on the need to survive?

Emotions often make us contradict plain facts so we don't lose our minds by rejecting common faith and principles]

I can't tell you how much i agree with this though. Perhaps the most accurate thing you said in this whole thread. But hey can you blame us? Humans just don't like things that aren't in their favor, no matter how true or accurate it may be.
 
Yeah I know, that was just a little bit of very dry humor sorry lol. I just feel weird saying "feel free to disagree" since science proves my point beyond any doubt.

Science can't prove anything. it can only provide enough supporting evidence to make it seem silly to dispute.

If science proved anything, we would still be believing that the earth is flat, maggots come from meat, and that everything revolves around the earth.

At best, scientists spend all their time trying to disprove their hypothesis in order to solidify it's validity.

Check and mate, sir.
 
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A 'law' for morality may not exist, but morality and moreover, human behavior, is predictable.

Predictability implies inference. If the OP believes that history repeats itself, this is fine. But don't assume that it's going to prove something beyond any doubt.

Also, I might add that predictability in this context is never associated with a universal quantifier, while provability is.

If the OP predicts something that has already been universally quantified, thats one thing. But if he predicts something, and when it comes true, call it universally quantified, that's a fallacy.

And in this case, he is predicting something that has not been universally quantified.

Sources:

http://tinyurl.com/y8ufsnp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_quantification
 
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There's almost too much to cover but I am bored.

I didn't mean to come off as defensive... I am pretty sure the post wasn't about me personally and that didn't enter meh mind. I did try to rib you a little however but you know how internetz communication goes sometimes... and now maybe you're being defensive now? Haha...

I think you can get alot out of a topic by two opposing views - don't take it as trolling. Although there may be a little thrown in there for fun but I assure you it's not mean spirited. From me anyways.

Also - I was focusing on the last paragrapgh when I threw out a bit of finger shaking - it sounded angsty. I reckon I stepped into the sarcasm chasm. Honestly this topic/theory is not new or original ... another reason I wanted to ask why post this unless there is some deep underlying issue you are dealing with... then you can talk to us man - this is a safe place (see - that was some very mild trolling - no harm done though).

Otherwise your post was fun. And I warned you I was going to be pompous - jeesh lighten up amigo.

I will check out The Selfish Gene as well.

Okay back OT -

You deny one cannot choose morality that it is chemically driven and arguably genetic at its core.

Can one choose not to embrace morality then?

And - it appears we may have some Sophists in this thread - I ain't one of 'em. I swear!
 
And I sent you a follow up PM to clarify a few things. Good topic man.
 
Just for clarification, I'm just saying science won't ever prove anything beyond any doubt. Aside from that, I am leaning towards the OP's original point of view. Not disputing it, simply cautioning against succumbing to the modern idea that science is becoming like a religion. E.g., persecuted for disputing it.
 
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