Fx
Unnecessarily Rude
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Tournament Gear poll - give feedback!
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Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
Welcome back!Other: No items other than level 70 items (no Dicklickers of Agility for example) with free choice of enchants and gems. No engineering gear above 375.
I won't participate though so you don't have to count my vote
I found a dwarf warrior called Stale (Stale @ Hellfire - Community - World of Warcraft). Is that you? And if so, why are you okay with using wotlk/mop/wod enchants if you aren't okay with using non-tbc items? Just curious.
Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
idk I asked you a question in some other thread and you just disappeared
why don't you go ahead and answer it now?
Stale
Legend
I didn't dissappear, I didn't answer anymore because everything you said was irrelevant to what the topic was about. So your curiosity remains unanswered :>). The best answer I can give is; Personal preferences are gonna personal preference. I also don't like people who use rares on a level where full epic is available, cause it's purple.
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Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
Trying to argue against rationale with "personal preference" as your own argument isn't very effective. I think that's why you stopped replying.
The argument in a nutshell: "I think scaling gear is good because it provides gear that isn't super easy to obtain and it rewards dedicated twinks" "I don't like scaling gear because I just don't like it".
Like if you don't provide any rational arguments then obviously the conversation doesn't go anywhere. The last thread was just me constantly trying to dig a real argument out of you, and you just saying things like "using low-level gear is disgusting" and "the item squish failed". Even though you didn't have an answer when I asked you what you thought the item squish was supposed to accomplish, since it failed in your eyes.
madhombre
Legend
yes it rewards "dedicated" twinks but maybe (and this is my personal preference ) a tournament in a bracket which lacks of activity shouldnt be ruled by gear which is extremely boring and time consuming to get.
you "dedicated" persons get rewarded in bgs/skirmish but in a tournament gear should be as equal as possible
) a tournament in a bracket which lacks of activity shouldnt be ruled by gear which is extremely boring and time consuming to get. you "dedicated" persons get rewarded in bgs/skirmish but in a tournament gear should be as equal as possible
Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
Definitely. I am actually for standardized gear in tournaments. Although in the next 2v2 tournament we're not going to restrict gear but instead restrict comps for balance. The main reason being we want to see how high attendance we can get on a single event, and having the tournament gear as a requirement puts a little barrier of entry on most people who usually participate.yes it rewards "dedicated" twinks but maybe (and this is my personal preference
you "dedicated" persons get rewarded in bgs/skirmish but in a tournament gear should be as equal as possible
Stale
Legend
You're just going completely crazy now Onlydreams
You're trying to twist words into your favor, but it's so easy to see, it's hilarious. I say I don't like WotLK/engineering items because of personal preference, you turn it into something about scaling (absolutely completely unrelated) and then turn THAT into that the squish didn't fail (it literally did fail, even without taking scaling into account there are literally lower level items better than higher level items, that's not how levels work, this is a rational argument as 100 > 99 > 98 > 97 > 96 >95 >94 >93 >92 >91..... 80 > 79 > 78>....70 > 69 > 68 > 67>.... 60 > 59 > 58 > 57>... 50.. etc, I'm sure you can continue from there and get the point. I already told you the reasons why the squish failed in the other topic, I don't know why I'm repeating myself as those points were very clear on why the squish rationally failed.
The scaling and the squish are not the same thing (though they're intertwined since when the squish failed, this became more apparent in the scaling), opinions aren't the same thing as rationality (you saying that you like that a low drop-rate ring isn't a rational argument to why the squish/scaling failed, since if it wasn't missed in the squish, it wouldn't have been there, it's a failure inside of a failure that turned it into something useful). That being said the scaling is less of a failure than the squish.
That's why I didn't continue it, cause I didn't think it was necesarry to continue (seems like you recently came to the same conclusion as well!). Well and the fact that you were lowering yourself to inspecting my armory since you ran out of arguments and then pathetically tried to suggest something about my character that had nothing to do with scaling or squish (see the quote).
My scope might be a bit broader than just level 70 agility-users, but not thinking the squish failed, that's beyond me. At least we can agree that some new items to grind is something good for 70, all thanks to the squish failing!
So yeah I won't be responding to this discussion anymore (again), before this gets out of hand and you start disliking me. Feel free to post your counterarguments, I'll probably still read them.
Absolutely top keks though, thanks for that.
EDIT: Also could a mod just shove all these replies into the Dark Iron Ring topic, no need to bother people with this.
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Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
I never claimed the stat squish didn't fail. I actually think it's completely irrelevant whether or not it failed, as long as it improved the game (which it did in my opinion). I asked you what you thought the goal of the squish was. Since you keep claiming it failed you must have a very clear idea of the goal, so it should be an easy question to answer, no? Yet you still have not.
There has always been examples of lower level items being better in WoW, especially for twinks. Is that's your whole argument as to why the squish "failed"? If that really is your only reason then the logical assumption (assumption alert!) would be that your idea of the item squish goal was to keep items powerlevel consistent with their level requirement. I do not think that was the case, but once again I don't personally care about the goal of the squish or whether or not it failed.
This is the first time you actually provide a reason for it failing btw, so idk why you would claim "I already told you the reasons why the squish failed in the other topic".
First of all I'm not arguing that the squish failed. Maybe you just wrote that wrong (?). The ring wasn't actually missed in the squish, it's just good because of the way the scaling system handles items with random enchants that also have static stats on them besides the random enchant.
Saying that I like the scaling system because of the ring that happens to require you to put time into getting is actually a rational argument. I think you might be mixing up rationality and objectivity.
I know that your character had nothing to do with the scaling argument. I'm pretty sure I even wrote the words "just curious" to clarify that it was kind of off-topic. If you want to know the reason I asked it's because you're not the first person I encounter who is against using anything but tbc gear, but also happened to have non-tbc enchants and gems. Whenever I asked them why they weren't okay with using non-tbc gear but fine with using non-tbc enchants/gems they never had an answer and often responded with desperate personal insults or simply not at all. So I hoped you would be able to answer the question, but apparently not. If you want my opinion I think it's simple hypocrisy and that nobody can answer it because the true answer is "because I'm a hypocrite".
Also I clearly didn't run out of arguments. As far as I remember you didn't provide a single counterargument to any of my arguments, regardless of me consistently asking you for them. If you read the last post in the thread it's literally me just asking you questions about your opinions.
So you also think it's good for the bracket. How weird that you are against utilizing it then.
Gucciyo
Legend
Stale
Legend
let the stubborn people be stubborn, they wont change their mind anyways
Truer words have never been spoken.
Fx
Unnecessarily Rude
You realize he's talking about you, right?
Stale
Legend
As long as you (and others) realize I'm talking about Onlydreams that doesn't matter.
In short the question that Onlydreams asked me was why the scaling/squish failed (I clearly stated that this is what I was answering here;
, so there's no denying that he "didn't know that was what I was talking about"), I explained why the scaling/squish failed thoroughly, he derailed it time after time asking me for my opinions, (has nothing to do with the scaling/squish failing or not) about a specific level 70 item, concluded that because he only plays level 70 and it added one (1) faulty useful item that it improved the game (as narrowminded as ever).
Since then he's been avoiding the squish/scaling failing completely and just keeps asking me for my opinions. My opinion was stated at the very first post I made, I cannot like something that failed, the consequences do not matter, if something is broken it shouldn't be liked. We all know what the reason for the squish was and you can look it up on the internet;
To lower the amount of stats on items while remaining a clear structure of level 1 to 100 items, this failed. He knows what the goal of the squish was, I know what the goal of the squish was, the goal of the squish has been mentioned throughout the internet for years, asking me won't change the goal of the squish. Comparing how lower level items were sometimes better than other items pre-squish is ofcourse another hilarious comparison between 1-5 level difference (pre-squish, because of itemisation/DPS, made sense) and 10-20 levels (post-squish, because of failed squish/scaling, does not compute). I don't think you can even mention a lower ievel armor/weapon that was better than level 70 gear pre-squish.
Atleast he finally admitted that he isn't arguing about the squish or the scaling, but only about using a ring, that's one step in the right direction. All he has to realize now is that the ring was indeed missed in the squish (well the suffixes were missed, the ring was actually squished) as you would know as no level 60 would've ever used that ring before the squish because it (with suffix included) didn't have more stats on it (raw, outside of scaling) than almost all raiding rings (and now it does, guess why!)
As for Onlydreams claiming that I don't have answer to his "counterarguments", which were unrelated to the scaling or squish, he didn't make any valid points. The only thing that he said (which was wrong) is mainly;
- The highest ilvl items were already bis in pve before wod (this was about how I said that higher ilvl items are now always the best inside of instances)
Bottled Tornado (literally no stats) (1), extra socketed lower item level gear (2), secondary stats (3), raw AP/Agi/Str/Int (4), any epic items > green items with relevant stats (5) any next expansion's rare > raiding tier previous expansion (6), "but those are still viable now! Yes, they are, but they perform worse than their high item level counterpart."
So to conclude Fx, I know it's about me, but it's actually about Onlydreams, since it's like talking to a brick wall that's changing direction every single post. There's no coherent message behind Onlydreams arguments. He has taken a unforeseen consequence as his main argument (well no not argument, rational opinion) to why something improved the game (this alone is ofcourse completely wrong). That unforeseen consequence is a very, very small proportion of the entire game.
Awww, but I'm not you see? That's part of your problem, you pull so much shit out of your imagination that you forget to read. I just said using low-level gear is disgusting and that it shouldn't be like that, since it's clearly broken and unintended (oh look, I gave arguments to why this is). That doesn't mean that people shouldn't utilize it or go farm it, it'll give you something to do! It's not like I'll /spit on you if I see someone wear it, but I do know that he shouldn't be wearing it, since it's not a level 70 item (remember the counting! 70>69>68>67>66).
Yeah, yeah I broke my own rule of not coming back to reply, but I need to have the last word. <3
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Dreams
fastest shadowstep in the west
If this was the goal of the item squish then we can conclude that it succeeded.
However, you present the following as your reason for it failing:
The part of your quote that I have underlined has never been stated by blizzard as a goal of the item squish, and therefore your whole argument falls flat. To put it in a different way: your reasoning for the failure of the item squish is based entirely on it failing a goal that you made up yourself.
You misunderstand me. I meant that you are personally against utilizing it. As in you do not utilize it yourself. That is weird considering you think it's a good thing for the bracket.
Also while the low-level gear might be unintended, it's far from broken. On a sidenote, resorting to the kind of condescending speech that you showed in above quote is often a sign of losing the argument.
Finally,
Please point out one time where I have changed direction on an argument. I have been the one constantly replying to (and debunking) each individual argument in your posts, where as you have often ignored most of mine and focused on one or two lines, as demonstrated in the example below:
Stales reply:You realize that the only reason I have to make assumptions is because you never say why you think something is bad, you just say it's bad.
The only time I made an argument based on an assumption was when I assumed you were against scaling gear because you found it overpowered (I thought it was a pretty reasonable assumption as you literally posted: "non-PvP gear with high statcount for it's item level which then gets scaled to ridiculous levels way beyond what's possible with the proper gear at that level"), and I made the argument that it's not. Apparently you don't find it overpowered. But you still haven't given any other reason.
You haven't responded to any of the other arguments I made either:
- The scaling gear system rewards more dedicated twinks because of the dark iron rings + ribsplitter being pretty time consuming to obtain.
- You thought having different gear for pvp and pve in mop was fine "because both were 70 gear with relevant stats that were important for that particular area of gameplay (resi) and your matching class." Yet resilience was made irrelevant long before the scaling system, and the scaling gear also has relevant class stats.
- I pointed out multiple times that you're not actually posting any reasons for your dislike of the scaling system. You simply state things like "The scaling system has made BiS openworld gear random", "Highest ilvl gear is best in pve" and "Some low-level gear is bis in pvp".
- The highest ilvl items were already bis in pve before wod.
- If you're so against using low level items, and if you were even against using items like sonic booster in mop, why are you twinking on retail?
There is never difficulty involved in gearing a twink, only time. But again; the time barrier is what often separates the dedicated from the non-dedicated twinks. In my eyes dedicating yourself to maxing out a twink should be rewarded.
You haven't asked me if I like the scaling system overall, let alone my reasons for liking it. But I guess I'll let you know
I think the scaling system is great. It allows us to easier compete with the scum that decides to level to 79 for an advantage, and it has opened up a whole lot of freedom and potential for discovery when it comes to gearing in pvp.
Which rare item were bis at 70 pre scaling system?
On a completely unrelated note, do you mind linking the armory page of your 70 twink if you have one?
The difference between us is that you seem to be giving your opinion on the consequences of the squish/scaling, whereas I am talking about why the squish and scaling failed. You can give me plenty of reasons as to why the consequences would be usable for twinking, but there's just no denying that the squish has failed. I mean you must realize that when you say you like the scaling because it failed on a low-droprate level 50 item that inappropiately scales in battlegrounds isn't an argument to like the scaling itself, it's just liking the item.
The consequence of that is that you're only giving reasons as to why you like certain items "it scales good and has a low droprate" not reasons as to why you like the scaling and the squish. Especially:
Doesn't work as an argument for the scaling system because it was not intended for this purpose. The thing you like are consequences of the scaling/squish failing.
So yeah, I agree with you that I don't know your opinion about the scaling system, but that opinion doesn't really matter because it failed. From a twink point of view there are plenty of reasons to like or dislike the consequences of the scaling, but that wasn't what I was trying to say.
Just look up Stale on armory