Better your understanding of competitve balanced premade v premade

AlbinoCow

Vaco Del Blanco
  • Due to the recent mediocre results of gameplay in the eu 10v10 wsg wargames, ive really wanted to see an increase in overall skill level after hte first few premades but due to some key players not coming its decreased. This thread is for any question anyone from anywhere might have about their role in competitive gameplay, strategies and tactics. There is no question u could ask as long as it has to do with premading competitively. Everyone has to start somewhere and setting aside ur pride and listening to ur peers is important to take the next step. Even the most experienced players always have something to learn or improve on in some aspect. I know there was a thread similar to this a while back, but since its a whole new meta and didnt want to necro, i created this.

    Once again to make it clear, there are no dumb questions here. If u dont understand something just say so and they'll be somebody, if not me, to explain it to u.

    No negative comments, keep that for random other threads not trying to increase the skill level of curious players.
     
    What were those recent mediocre results? Dunno about last week's games, but i know about those two weeks ago when it was a tie result.

    Moreover, alliance needed to swap their rogue for another monk and horde kept the same setting.

    Even so if you're reffering to last games, mediocre sounds too harsh. Don't go [MENTION=14667]CripzBlood[/MENTION]'s path, you will kill all the will of people to participate.

    What horde needs is better communication and people actually interracting on skype calling things, etc. Nothing more.

    Let's not turn this into drama, no place for it tbh.

    Ps: be happy we have those games free of p2p. In time things will get better.
     
    What were those recent mediocre results? Dunno about last week's games, but i know about those two weeks ago when it was a tie result.

    Moreover, alliance needed to swap their rogue for another monk and horde kept the same setting.

    Even so if you're reffering to last games, mediocre sounds too harsh. Don't go [MENTION=14667]CripzBlood[/MENTION]'s path, you will kill all the will of people to participate.

    What horde needs is better communication and people actually interracting on skype calling things, etc. Nothing more.

    Let's not turn this into drama, no place for it tbh.

    Ps: be happy we have those games free of p2p. In time things will get better.

    wtf? The score of the game does not have to do with the skill level of the games as an overall. I literally said no negative comments, These are community games, im not calling anyone bad or trying to cause drama, but the thing is most ppl competing in these games may not be experienced in 10v10s and so on and how big the difference is. And i know from experience (when we did this exact thing on US realms) that a lot of players will put their pride ahead of the games their are playing and not look at the possibility that they are not filling their roles and so on. Im trying to break thru that and assist all players. The fact u take such an offensive stance on this thread which is quiet literally only to help players means that u are really being affected by cripz's trolls.
     
    I normally play rogue and always have priorities mixed up from escorting FC to and leaving him as I see EFC as they cross in mid since rogues r more built for offensive play... so should i continue to escort FC all the way to flag room or should i peel as others come in to assist?

    Rogue is the most diverse role and class at this level in wsg 10v10s, so its not so simple to give a one sentence answer. What u should be doing is completely dependent on what ur team is expecting and basing their plays around. Communicate with all of ur team before the match whether they want u slowing efc down with saps and possible openers at the start ( the more common use of a rogue at the start of a game) or possibly escorting ur fc if the enemy team has set up a defense, sap and ur poison slows are really good for peeling just enough to give ur fc enough room to get to team and ur team wont lose a healer in mid to escort the fc thru defense. Or even coming straight mid and sapping healers before combat starts, stealing rejuv huts later in game and sapping any healers that try to get them as well as any ressers.

    Since there is a new wargame feature that makes individual ressers, u can really gimp enemy teams with seperate, long sap chains on their ressers.

    So most importantly u want to make sure ur team knows what ur doing and agrees, there is no right and wrong in a general sense, u must react to how the enemy plays or how ur team plays to make the most of ur class.
     
    Players that put their pride ahead of the games should not be allowed in the first place.

    I never said you are calling someone bad... but this is another bait topic for tools like Crpz.

    I think strategies and stuff should be discussed on Skype tbh, an environment free of trolls/tools, whatever.

    Let's hope i'm wrong and this topic will actually become productive.
     
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    Players that put their pride ahead of the games should not be allowed in the first place.

    I never said you are calling someone bad... but this is another bait topic for tools like Crpz.

    I think strategies and stuff should be discussed on Skype tbh, an environment free of trolls/tools, whatever.

    Let's hope i'm wrong and this topic will actually become productive.

    Albino has a point, I dont which balance (in terms of teamwork skills) you are talking about, but Horde need definitely to work on it instead just try randomly hoping for the good.
    Just give it a try.
     
    Rogue is the most diverse role and class at this level in wsg 10v10s,
    Agree with your points. A Rogue should be the cornerstone of a well planned strategy (from my experience that is). Usually theres 3 major aspects I got from previous wargames:
    - Rogues are the ideal target callers cause they are not as pressured as other classes also they mostly can move behind enemylines
    - their CC/Dmg/Interrupt and sudden appearence are game changers, the certainty of a rogue nearby is a psychological pressure for enemys (esp. healers)
    - they are and should be huge support for FC-flagrun

    Downsides:
    - Rogues need assistance of dispelhealshieldeverything (they are like a sponge when it comes to support)
    - wasting opportunities and CDs are very easy to achieve - experience is mandatory (like rogues taking Spint doing nothing the first 30 secs or still staying next to own group etc etc)

    TL/DR: A good rogue is "everywhere" and always has a plan but he needs to rely on his team. You let him unsupported you strip yourself of a crucial part of strategy.
     
    Agreed with everything up to "they are not as pressured". Watch the 1st game from two weeks ago. I was kept in combat 90% of the time being forced to stay behind my lines trying to get a restealth.

    A good team will annoy the opposite rogue to death by denying him his best tool, "element of surprise".
     
    Agreed with everything up to "they are not as pressured". Watch the 1st game from two weeks ago. I was kept in combat 90% of the time being forced to stay behind my lines trying to get a restealth.

    A good team will annoy the opposite rogue to death by denying him his best tool, "element of surprise".

    I've been expecting you.
     
    protip: Have some focus dps macros (so you target someone else but do DPS on the focus instead). Focus starsurge and aimed shot macros etc would work for this. Makes it harder for enemy healers to preheal the right target :) Idk maybe everyone already uses this shit but w/e
     
    Due to the recent mediocre results of gameplay in the eu 10v10 wsg wargames, ive really wanted to see an increase in overall skill level after hte first few premades but due to some key players not coming its decreased. This thread is for any question anyone from anywhere might have about their role in competitive gameplay, strategies and tactics. There is no question u could ask as long as it has to do with premading competitively. Everyone has to start somewhere and setting aside ur pride and listening to ur peers is important to take the next step. Even the most experienced players always have something to learn or improve on in some aspect. I know there was a thread similar to this a while back, but since its a whole new meta and didnt want to necro, i created this.

    Once again to make it clear, there are no dumb questions here. If u dont understand something just say so and they'll be somebody, if not me, to explain it to u.

    No negative comments, keep that for random other threads not trying to increase the skill level of curious players.

    Last night we have very ineresting chat with Leverage. He said "do you think you can deff CripzBlood duelling?" I said depends, he has more dmg with his ellos band, eyepatch and naga bow + AGM for HP. If I manage to crit more times Ill win. My mates agreed in a equal duel he has to use LFH and to remove ello band.
    Noone speaks here for skills. After all the hunter isnt so complicated character like the warlock, the warrior, the mage. We just keep distance and shoot. Not many skills are needed. On 20lvl survival has 3 spells. We can improve our dps with pets so the hunter has to know what diff pets give to the party and to his dmg personally. I use hydra pet in randoms. It makes more dmg so kinda compensate my LFH (it gives only HP) but still I rely on crit and you know the crit isnt as it was... Cripz relys on more dmg with more agg.
    In wargames I have to use party improving pets like stats, stam, haste etc. That means my personal dps for sure will be lower then in randoms.
     
    Last night we have very ineresting chat with Leverage. He said "do you think you can deff CripzBlood duelling?" I said depends, he has more dmg with his ellos band, eyepatch and naga bow + AGM for HP. If I manage to crit more times Ill win. My mates agreed in a equal duel he has to use LFH and to remove ello band.
    Noone speaks here for skills. After all the hunter isnt so complicated character like the warlock, the warrior, the mage. We just keep distance and shoot. Not many skills are needed. On 20lvl survival has 3 spells. We can improve our dps with pets so the hunter has to know what diff pets give to the party and to his dmg personally. I use hydra pet in randoms. It makes more dmg so kinda compensate my LFH (it gives only HP) but still I rely on crit and you know the crit isnt as it was... Cripz relys on more dmg with more agg.
    In wargames I have to use party improving pets like stats, stam, haste etc. That means my personal dps for sure will be lower then in randoms.

    One very important thing in playing Hunter (and every other class) is to unbind your S key and bind it to something useful. Aswell you need to change your movement keys A + D to Strafe left and right, so you can kite melees properly.

    Keyboardturn and backpeddle says so much about the player behind the Screen, because its pretty much Basics.

    This isnt only for you [MENTION=11576]Gotha[/MENTION] i saw a lot off pps doing it, and its just a total No-Go.

    Here is a very interesting and useful article from back in the days, which also helped me understand a lot of things concerning Keybinds, movement etc. So i would suggest that everyone, "xped" or not reads it once more:

    http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/22/keys-to-pvp-keybinding-movement-and-clicking/

    So for next week wargames, i wish to see no more backpeddle!


    Best Regards, have a nice day
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    One very important thing in playing Hunter (and every other class) is to unbind your S key and bind it to something useful. Aswell you need to change your movement keys A + D to Strafe left and right, so you can kite melees properly.

    Keyboardturn and backpeddle says so much about the player behind the Screen, because its pretty much Basics.

    This isnt only for you [MENTION=11576]Gotha[/MENTION] i saw a lot off pps doing it, and its just a total No-Go.

    Here is a very interesting and useful article from back in the days, which also helped me understand a lot of things concerning Keybinds, movement etc. So i would suggest that everyone, "xped" or not reads it once more:

    Keys to PvP: Keybinding, movement and clicking

    So for next week wargames, i wish to see no more backpeddle!


    Best Regards, have a nice day

    And why do you think I do not use keys for moving? I play f2p now but few years ago I was in the same server PvP warlock with arenas gear. Unfortunately the man who owned the account decided to delete my characters so only my screenshots remained. Anyway I never speak of what I have or had in that game. Your link can be usefull for smone new here, I play since Vanilla so...
     
    So for next week wargames, i wish to see no more backpeddle!

    so it took me years to figure how to use the "s" key effectively and now I have to give it up?

    now seriously, I would like to hear from more experience players some analysis of the past games, and what could have been done better.
    Ofc, its OK to point out individual players weaknesses, in the end its just a game and people should not fell bad at all if someone points out aspects where they can improve,
    I think its really not rocket science and everyone can reach a decent level of play. In any case, I think it mostly horde lost due to team play, I agree with donz(leverage) that individual skill is secondary to team play.

    So far I have done only 3 wargames on my bm monk, my 1st one was a totoal chaos for me and we won (alliance), second one (17-05) we won first game cause
    alliance fail and my lucky return,. I think the second game on 17-5 we lost because alliance had too much dps with too much mobility (2 monks, boomkin, 2x hunt, mage) and our heals just couldnt cope with it, but many things could have been done better (i.e. we failed to regroup).

    So my questions are, was there any way horde could have somehow countered the alliance setup in the second game on 24-5? Was there any way we could have regrouped a do something at all? I think one problem was the lack from communication, in that situation the eladership and coordination should have been take over by the FC, who I think was not talkin on skype. Any ideas?


    edit: I corrected the date to 17-5
     
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    Last night we have very ineresting chat with Leverage. He said "do you think you can deff CripzBlood duelling?" I said depends, he has more dmg with his ellos band, eyepatch and naga bow + AGM for HP. If I manage to crit more times Ill win. My mates agreed in a equal duel he has to use LFH and to remove ello band.
    Noone speaks here for skills. After all the hunter isnt so complicated character like the warlock, the warrior, the mage. We just keep distance and shoot. Not many skills are needed. On 20lvl survival has 3 spells. We can improve our dps with pets so the hunter has to know what diff pets give to the party and to his dmg personally. I use hydra pet in randoms. It makes more dmg so kinda compensate my LFH (it gives only HP) but still I rely on crit and you know the crit isnt as it was... Cripz relys on more dmg with more agg.
    In wargames I have to use party improving pets like stats, stam, haste etc. That means my personal dps for sure will be lower then in randoms.

    Since you posted here I'm guessing that you want some kind of feedback on your gameplay in premade situations. I hope you don't take this as a personal criticism or think that i'm attacking you but hunter is a little more complicated that you think.

    For example, i've noticed that in the last few 10v10s that you stay near your FC a lot to use your Narrow Escape to peel off any enemies. In a way this is good, however you as a hunter have a much more important role.

    If we group classes to what kind role they must fulfill in premade situations, we'll come up with Healers, the obvious, then FC, then mid control classes, like boomkin, brewmaster monk and arms warrior. You as a hunter fall into the 4th group of class, similar to rogues, wind walker monks and rets. By this I mean you are a kind of support class, not just for FC but for team mates and also great at killing EFC.

    While the mid control classes do their job of trying to spread AoE and gain mid, you need to be working with the rogues in your team. An example of this would be 2 weeks ago, when your rogue has EFC sapped at ramp and none of his team mates came to help. When the rogue calls out that he sapped EFC, you need to be breaking off from your team and trying to get a kill on EFC with your rogue.

    A huge amount of the damage also comes from a hunter, so you should try to get more Agility pieces rather than worrying about stamina. With 3 healers, you're unlikely to die as a ranged DPS, so it would be better to go into an agility set and improve your damage.

    My last point would be using your pet's Roar Of Sacrifice. This is one of the best and most important hunter spells but it's rare to see hunter's use it because most of them don't know about it. I suggest you change your pet's talent to cunning and make a Roar Of Sacrifice macro.
    #showtooltip Roar of Sacrifice
    /cast [@mouseover,help][@player] Roar of Sacrifice

    This macro will allow you to mouseover a friendly target and use this ability so that they don't get critically struck. This is so important to do when you see an offensive push from the other team onto your FC.

    Sorry for the long text, hope you find it useful. :)
     
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    Ok, ist not my intention to make someone salty or whatsoever...........

    Maybe some people understand my point others dont i guess. Which is ok .....just please all hunters, dont play like this guy does:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhO_Dd0iOzo

    Also some very good addons for PVP, which are a must in my opinion, are:

    Shows the whole enemy Team in a nice clickable list:
    BattlegroundTargets - PvP - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse

    Nice addon for easy Keybinds and UI setup:
    Bartender4 - Action Bars - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse

    Interrupt Tracker + Cooldown Display (from your spells):
    OmniBar (InterruptBar for WoD) - PvP - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse
    OmniCC - Combat - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse

    Very small addons, which can improve gameplay!

    Cheers have a nice day
     
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