Upswag
Legend
Two TLDRs are below the long post and bolded. Feel free to read it. If you fucking read the TLDR and then argue with me without reading my actual post, I am not replying to you. I am not here to repeat myself as other nicer posters do. I don't treat stupidity like it's a pitiable thing.
Hey guys, I've been trying to figure out this queue stuff because it reminds me sort of that bug 19s had where everyone was in queue but the queue wouldn't pop. Here's what I was thinking: Okay, so I've been q'ing random with nothing chosen as blocked (meaning I'm q'ing WSG and AB s well) and I do get a lot of WSG and AB when I do that. Okay, so that makes me think one of two things a) Blizzard is prioritizing AB and WSG OR at the least WSG and EOTS (meaning the 10 people BGs) or b) people are prioritizing AB and WSG solo q'ing.
I think a) is more likely than b) because the average player just q's what they see and doesn't go further to see other options. Okay, so then I tested q'ing random but with EoTS and AV as the only options (blocking out AB and WSG which I no longer need). This is a good way to get the random BG queue (which is arguably faster) but still q'ing the 2 BGs I wanted. To my surprise, my queue times were immediately almost quadruple the length (AV took an hour and a half, EoTS took 37 minutes).
That leads me to the conclusion that Blizzard scrapped the new queue system they were going to try with healers etc getting a diff queue than DPS and it makes me think they went back to their slotted queue system. What this means is, Blizzard no longer prioritizes getting games to pop but rather getting people into games.
There's a huge difference here that might not be immediately obvious. In the former, getting people into games, as you queue you're dropped into a massive pool of people. When the pool of people hits the correct number, you're whisked into a BG. In other words, let's say people queue slowly, one by one. AB takes 15 people per side, so let's say Alliance hits 15 people and AB can pop. Prioritizing games means that as soon as you hit the magic number of 15 you are whisked into an AB that may be 15 vs 11 or 12 (but not something that is necessarily 15). This is prioritizing games. Now, my guess is Blizzard has a system where WSG or EOTS is preferred unless there are 30 people in queue. Meaning, that unless you get really lucky and a ton of people queue AB at the same time (or JUST AB) you're 99% of the time going to flip WSG in a random because it's more likely that you keep getting sets of 20 people popping WSG then having the luck of happening to have 30 people queue fast enough that the game fills up a 30 man AB and not a 20 man WSG. Now let's be real, if you queue random, you aren't getting WSG 99% of the time. So my logic must be wrong, right?
Well maybe.. but I think what's more likely is people like HB (who only queues WSG as he hates AB) are queuing only AB (and this is pretty common). These people might only be 4-5 strong but if you take 5 people on each side q'ing only AB, that means that AB now only needs 10 people to pop - ie, the same as WSG - and now it's weighted just as much. Now why does this matter? Because I think this goes in to how Blizzard fills in games where people AFK. Let's say 23 people queue for WSG (10 Horde, 13 Alliance). WSG pops, 10 v10, 3 Alliance AFK. Now it's 10 v 7 and as I'm sure most of you have experienced it remains 10v7 for most of the game. WHY? Why isn't "stupid Blizzard" just fielding one person into the game? Well, it's because of the queue system preferring games to pop, not players. You see, Blizzard COULD take 1 person out of the the new pool of players and shove them in, but that new pool of players might have 17 people (10 Horde, 7 Alliance). Losing 3 of those Alliance players makes it 10 and 4, making it less likely to get the second game.
That makes sense to me and furthers my belief that Blizzard queues based on games, not players.
OKAY that's super long:
So why does this matter? I think it matters because people are q'ing in one of three ways - a) q'ing randoms b) q'ing randoms with ab and wsg not checked or c) q'ing av and eots individually.
First, STOP q'ing the second way. It's the worst way. Why? Blizzard is queuing games not players remember? If you queue AV and EoTS in the random queue it's placing you into the pool of players considered "random." Now Blizzard prioritizes EoTS and WSG (10 each or 20), over AB (15 each or 30) and definitely over AV (40 each or EIGHTY FUCKING PLAYERS OUT OF THE PLAYERBASE). So basically let's say 100 people jump into the pool of "random" queue players (which is about right I'd say). 50 Horde, 50 Alliance. With this we can have a few diff types of games going:
1 AV (80 people) 1 WSG (20 people)
2 AB (60 People) 2 WSG (40 People)
1 AB (30 people) 2 WSG (40 people) 1 EOTS (20 people) 10 in Queue
5 WSG or EoTS (100 People)
Okay. Imagine we're doing this by hand. Your goal is to efficiently get as many people into the game as much as you can AT ALL TIMES. Meaning as 1 AV pops and 80 people leave the 100 person pool, 6 people might join immediately after (making the pool 26). Now you need to decide, do I hold for 4 more and pop an AB? Do I pop the WSG and just hold these 6 knowing they might have a 30 minute queue? Now keep in mind this is a computer program, and it's goal is efficiency.
It's pretty obvious, you go with the last option. Keep filling in the 20 BG slots until you have so many people that popping an AV takes out a large part of the pool and makes it easier for you. IE: AV is a last option, not a first. It's only for when you need to dump 80 people ASAP because they have been in your queue for an hour and your algorithm can't take it.
IE: If you queue random and you only queue AV and EoTS, you're holding everyone else back. The queue system is including you in that 100 people, then trying to pop something and seeing you're not able to queue it (ie no WSG and no AB) it's returning everyone else to the queue while waiting for something you can play. It's not because it's you, it's because it's literally you and 30 other people. That means the queue system can't handle placing everyone because it's too convoluted. This happens at 90 too which is why queue times went from instant at 90 (when it was literally just put people in the BG) to 10 minutes + (BGs need to pop). Then Alliance queues IoC cuz they win all the time, and random pop has to put Horde into IoC because their are too many Alliance in the queue system que'ing and the algorithm mandates that the IoC pop to get those people out of the queue system.
So finally here's what means for us:
TLDR TLDR TLDR - if you just trust me so much that fuck it Upswag, tell me why it matters, I don't need your logic START READING HERE
Stop q'ing randoms with WSG and AB unchecked. It's fucking up the queue system big time.
Stop q'ing just AV and EoTS OR everyone has to queue just EoTS or AV. Right now we're in the middle. Too many people are q'ing just AV for it to pop EoTS etc. and too few people are q'ing AV for it to actually pop AV. That means the system is in limbo and only in the very rare circumstances that it has 20 people ONLY q'ing WSG and AB is it popping a game. We have so many people q'ing AV that the game is prioritizing it (IE HOLY SHIT WE HAVE THIRTY PEOPLE Q'ING AV WE NEED 50 MORE PEOPLE STAT - oh shit there aren't 50 people but we are prioritizing AV SHIT SHIT SHIT ABORT ABORT ABORT - 40 minute queue).
We can do this as a community. I know this because in AV I see a solid 40 people that I know. Everyone needs to queue just AV or everyone needs to just queue random and block nothing off. OR, block AB off and keep EoTS and WSG so that the system can relieve itself in the 10 man BGs.
STill TLDR: WE CANT KEEP Q'ING ALL THE BGs while this many people are q'ing AV or no one is getting pops *
*Edit: Also Blizzard might totally be fucking up based on the BG timers pausing sometimes. However, I'm getting pops at 90 pretty regularly so I think I might be right or damn close to it. This is a theory tho
Hey guys, I've been trying to figure out this queue stuff because it reminds me sort of that bug 19s had where everyone was in queue but the queue wouldn't pop. Here's what I was thinking: Okay, so I've been q'ing random with nothing chosen as blocked (meaning I'm q'ing WSG and AB s well) and I do get a lot of WSG and AB when I do that. Okay, so that makes me think one of two things a) Blizzard is prioritizing AB and WSG OR at the least WSG and EOTS (meaning the 10 people BGs) or b) people are prioritizing AB and WSG solo q'ing.
I think a) is more likely than b) because the average player just q's what they see and doesn't go further to see other options. Okay, so then I tested q'ing random but with EoTS and AV as the only options (blocking out AB and WSG which I no longer need). This is a good way to get the random BG queue (which is arguably faster) but still q'ing the 2 BGs I wanted. To my surprise, my queue times were immediately almost quadruple the length (AV took an hour and a half, EoTS took 37 minutes).
That leads me to the conclusion that Blizzard scrapped the new queue system they were going to try with healers etc getting a diff queue than DPS and it makes me think they went back to their slotted queue system. What this means is, Blizzard no longer prioritizes getting games to pop but rather getting people into games.
There's a huge difference here that might not be immediately obvious. In the former, getting people into games, as you queue you're dropped into a massive pool of people. When the pool of people hits the correct number, you're whisked into a BG. In other words, let's say people queue slowly, one by one. AB takes 15 people per side, so let's say Alliance hits 15 people and AB can pop. Prioritizing games means that as soon as you hit the magic number of 15 you are whisked into an AB that may be 15 vs 11 or 12 (but not something that is necessarily 15). This is prioritizing games. Now, my guess is Blizzard has a system where WSG or EOTS is preferred unless there are 30 people in queue. Meaning, that unless you get really lucky and a ton of people queue AB at the same time (or JUST AB) you're 99% of the time going to flip WSG in a random because it's more likely that you keep getting sets of 20 people popping WSG then having the luck of happening to have 30 people queue fast enough that the game fills up a 30 man AB and not a 20 man WSG. Now let's be real, if you queue random, you aren't getting WSG 99% of the time. So my logic must be wrong, right?
Well maybe.. but I think what's more likely is people like HB (who only queues WSG as he hates AB) are queuing only AB (and this is pretty common). These people might only be 4-5 strong but if you take 5 people on each side q'ing only AB, that means that AB now only needs 10 people to pop - ie, the same as WSG - and now it's weighted just as much. Now why does this matter? Because I think this goes in to how Blizzard fills in games where people AFK. Let's say 23 people queue for WSG (10 Horde, 13 Alliance). WSG pops, 10 v10, 3 Alliance AFK. Now it's 10 v 7 and as I'm sure most of you have experienced it remains 10v7 for most of the game. WHY? Why isn't "stupid Blizzard" just fielding one person into the game? Well, it's because of the queue system preferring games to pop, not players. You see, Blizzard COULD take 1 person out of the the new pool of players and shove them in, but that new pool of players might have 17 people (10 Horde, 7 Alliance). Losing 3 of those Alliance players makes it 10 and 4, making it less likely to get the second game.
That makes sense to me and furthers my belief that Blizzard queues based on games, not players.
OKAY that's super long:
So why does this matter? I think it matters because people are q'ing in one of three ways - a) q'ing randoms b) q'ing randoms with ab and wsg not checked or c) q'ing av and eots individually.
First, STOP q'ing the second way. It's the worst way. Why? Blizzard is queuing games not players remember? If you queue AV and EoTS in the random queue it's placing you into the pool of players considered "random." Now Blizzard prioritizes EoTS and WSG (10 each or 20), over AB (15 each or 30) and definitely over AV (40 each or EIGHTY FUCKING PLAYERS OUT OF THE PLAYERBASE). So basically let's say 100 people jump into the pool of "random" queue players (which is about right I'd say). 50 Horde, 50 Alliance. With this we can have a few diff types of games going:
1 AV (80 people) 1 WSG (20 people)
2 AB (60 People) 2 WSG (40 People)
1 AB (30 people) 2 WSG (40 people) 1 EOTS (20 people) 10 in Queue
5 WSG or EoTS (100 People)
Okay. Imagine we're doing this by hand. Your goal is to efficiently get as many people into the game as much as you can AT ALL TIMES. Meaning as 1 AV pops and 80 people leave the 100 person pool, 6 people might join immediately after (making the pool 26). Now you need to decide, do I hold for 4 more and pop an AB? Do I pop the WSG and just hold these 6 knowing they might have a 30 minute queue? Now keep in mind this is a computer program, and it's goal is efficiency.
It's pretty obvious, you go with the last option. Keep filling in the 20 BG slots until you have so many people that popping an AV takes out a large part of the pool and makes it easier for you. IE: AV is a last option, not a first. It's only for when you need to dump 80 people ASAP because they have been in your queue for an hour and your algorithm can't take it.
IE: If you queue random and you only queue AV and EoTS, you're holding everyone else back. The queue system is including you in that 100 people, then trying to pop something and seeing you're not able to queue it (ie no WSG and no AB) it's returning everyone else to the queue while waiting for something you can play. It's not because it's you, it's because it's literally you and 30 other people. That means the queue system can't handle placing everyone because it's too convoluted. This happens at 90 too which is why queue times went from instant at 90 (when it was literally just put people in the BG) to 10 minutes + (BGs need to pop). Then Alliance queues IoC cuz they win all the time, and random pop has to put Horde into IoC because their are too many Alliance in the queue system que'ing and the algorithm mandates that the IoC pop to get those people out of the queue system.
So finally here's what means for us:
TLDR TLDR TLDR - if you just trust me so much that fuck it Upswag, tell me why it matters, I don't need your logic START READING HERE
Stop q'ing randoms with WSG and AB unchecked. It's fucking up the queue system big time.
Stop q'ing just AV and EoTS OR everyone has to queue just EoTS or AV. Right now we're in the middle. Too many people are q'ing just AV for it to pop EoTS etc. and too few people are q'ing AV for it to actually pop AV. That means the system is in limbo and only in the very rare circumstances that it has 20 people ONLY q'ing WSG and AB is it popping a game. We have so many people q'ing AV that the game is prioritizing it (IE HOLY SHIT WE HAVE THIRTY PEOPLE Q'ING AV WE NEED 50 MORE PEOPLE STAT - oh shit there aren't 50 people but we are prioritizing AV SHIT SHIT SHIT ABORT ABORT ABORT - 40 minute queue).
We can do this as a community. I know this because in AV I see a solid 40 people that I know. Everyone needs to queue just AV or everyone needs to just queue random and block nothing off. OR, block AB off and keep EoTS and WSG so that the system can relieve itself in the 10 man BGs.
STill TLDR: WE CANT KEEP Q'ING ALL THE BGs while this many people are q'ing AV or no one is getting pops *
*Edit: Also Blizzard might totally be fucking up based on the BG timers pausing sometimes. However, I'm getting pops at 90 pretty regularly so I think I might be right or damn close to it. This is a theory tho
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