Level 80 content potentially impossible come WoD?

[strec021]

I recently was testing the dps, healing and tanking capability of my level 80 shaman/warrior and noticed that the magnitude of the hp squish of raid enemies was not nearly as much as the reduction in DPS. Healing and tank survivability seem fine, even if a bit strong, but an ilevel 260 warrior could barely push out 3k single target in Naxx while an ilevel 302 shaman could barely push out 5k. While this will make a good portion of tier 7, 8 and 9 really fun due to the berserk timers being real again, specialty fights like Algalon, Sarth 3d, Anub heroic, and ICC heroic will be undoable with current dps levels. I'm specifically referring to the fact that boss HP was only reduced between 10 and 20% at 80, but some of the harder fights in the expansion required 7k+, which I don't think is doable except in burst or in ilevel 320+ gear. Anyways, what experience do you guys have with this so far?

On a fun note, Naxx 25 in ilevel 200 gear might be a real challenge again (far more than it was during wrath).

 

[Zmirnøff]

It's definitely going to be harder than we've been used to. But so far during our tests it seems to be pretty balanced to what the content should be like. DPS enrages shouldn't be an issue as below will show. The only real issue may be healing as the style of healing has changed drastically. Twink healers may be needed for ilvl appropriate raiding if healers can't keep up with the mob damage output.

Algalon has 8,367,000HP.
6 min enrage, you need 23,241 raid DPS to down the encounter.
2 tanks, 5 DPS, we'll just say that a tank can do 50% of a DPS's damage for easiness.

That's 3873.5 DPS per person, 1936.75 DPS per tank.
Modifier for 226 ilvl (Herald ilvl~) is 1.43333333333x

That's 2702.4~DPS per person, 1351.2~DPS per tank outside of an instance.

I've been simming BiS characters, and the lowest possible DPS classes are sitting at around 4k outside of instances, highest around 7k. Take away a decent percentage from them to take into account proc items in the BiS lists and you'll still be able to do around 2.5 - 3k outside.

 

[strec021]

I guess I was looking at 25 man fights, where Algalon requires essentially 5k a person (18 dps, 2 tanks). Even if people can reach that dps, can you expect the twinking community to be able to min/max their characters to do content 5 years out of date? Rather than just say fuck it and wear 308 gear?

 

[Xipelol]

I guess I was looking at 25 man fights, where Algalon requires essentially 5k a person (18 dps, 2 tanks). Even if people can reach that dps, can you expect the twinking community to be able to min/max their characters to do content 5 years out of date? Rather than just say fuck it and wear 308 gear?

10 or 25 man that makes absolutely no difference and saying i guess intially makes it sound like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. pro tip if you cannot be arsed to get the BIS gear for twinking older content guess what... you are not a twink, you are just some nostalgia raider. get bis or gtfo.

 

[Aelobin]

Even if people can reach that dps, can you expect the twinking community to be able to min/max their characters to do content 5 years out of date? Rather than just say fuck it and wear 308 gear?

It depends on what the motive of each player is. Surely if they want to do gear appropriate raiding then they're motivated enough to gather the correct gear?

I don't really see how the activity of the community is relevant when discussing the difficulty of the content. It's always been hard to pull a 25 man raid together and I doubt that will ever change.

 

[strec021]

I suppose I was speaking to the specific progression path of gear-as-you-progress, where there is no chance to have that extra crutch in higher level gear. Being one of those immensely interested in that playstyle, I wonder if the prospect of razor sharp dps requirements might frustrate anyone trying to do this type of content into trivializing it.

 

[Zmirnøff]

I guess I was looking at 25 man fights, where Algalon requires essentially 5k a person (18 dps, 2 tanks). Even if people can reach that dps, can you expect the twinking community to be able to min/max their characters to do content 5 years out of date? Rather than just say fuck it and wear 308 gear?

34,862,500
6 min enrage


96,841 Raid DPS


2 Tanks
6 Healers
17 DPS


6052.5625 DPS per person.
3026.28125 DPS per tank.


BiS Gear against Algalon at appropriate ilvl would be something like 237 - 239?


For arguments sake, say we were scrubs that hadn't been raiding Ulduar long, at least 232 ilvl would have been gained.
226 + 239 / 2 = 232.5


Multiplier for 232.5 is 1.5416666...x


3926 DPS per person.
1963 DPS per tank.


So a reasonable amount higher per person than 10 man, but still doable.

 

[SuperSirius]

Well as of right now on the beta, all JP gear stuff including tier that you used to buy with badges/jp/vp are now just plain old gold. Things that required tokens still require the tokens. The wowhead and mmo DB aren't updated to show that the vendors are still there, but they sell all the gear for gold now.

I'm hoping that the old content is harder than it is in its current state from stat/damage/healing inflation. It'd be fun to go back to hard content.

 

[Xipelol]

Well as of right now on the beta, all JP gear stuff including tier that you used to buy with badges/jp/vp are now just plain old gold. Things that required tokens still require the tokens. The wowhead and mmo DB aren't updated to show that the vendors are still there, but they sell all the gear for gold now.

I'm hoping that the old content is harder than it is in its current state from stat/damage/healing inflation. It'd be fun to go back to hard content.

Assuming you stay below the ilvl 290/295?? (cant remember) threshold (equiv gear to the raid itself) healing requirements will be alot higher than before, possible even higher than in wrath (not definitive as of yet, would need to do some more testing but I doubt this will happen till pre-patch hits due not enough people are interested on beta/ptr) dps requirements i'm not quite sure of IMO, most "good" melee dps dps are coming in-between 15k-22k not stating which is the highest because blizzard are currently bricking themselves and are just throwing patches up left right and centre and everything is accustomed to change all I can say is WOLOLO AEROBIN JUST JELLY HE AINT MASTA RACE -POKE- -POKE-, as for casters I have no idea the dmg seemed a little low but I haven't played fire in PVE. i'll just wait too see what sim's come out like and some people who can actually play the specs. i.e. zmirnoff/awesomeyo/snow.

 

[Aelobin]

WOLOLO AEROBIN JUST JELLY HE AINT MASTA RACE -POKE- -POKE-

 

[strec021]

Assuming you stay below the ilvl 290/295?? (cant remember) threshold (equiv gear to the raid itself) healing requirements will be alot higher than before, possible even higher than in wrath (not definitive as of yet, would need to do some more testing but I doubt this will happen till pre-patch hits due not enough people are interested on beta/ptr) dps requirements i'm not quite sure of IMO, most "good" melee dps dps are coming in-between 15k-22k not stating which is the highest because blizzard are currently bricking themselves and are just throwing patches up left right and centre and everything is accustomed to change all I can say is WOLOLO AEROBIN JUST JELLY HE AINT MASTA RACE -POKE- -POKE-, as for casters I have no idea the dmg seemed a little low but I haven't played fire in PVE. i'll just wait too see what sim's come out like and some people who can actually play the specs. i.e. zmirnoff/awesomeyo/snow.

You're reaching 15k+ dps with melee at level 80 on the ptr? I have an arms warrior at itemlevel 260 and can -MAYBE- get 3k out of him over a 1 minute test on the dummy. Considering how simple the rotation is, I can't imagine I'd be pulling 25% of what I'm supposed to. (Even with ilevel bonus, I would only get to 6k).

 

[Aelobin]

I have an arms warrior at itemlevel 260 and can -MAYBE- get 3k out of him over a 1 minute test on the dummy. Considering how simple the rotation is, I can't imagine I'd be pulling 25% of what I'm supposed to. (Even with ilevel bonus, I would only get to 6k).

Arms is the lowest dps spec at level 80 if Zmirnoff's testing is accurate, which I believe it is (except DKs not being #1 ofc).

Edit: Disregard this, apparently there was a significant problem with the Arms sims.

 

[SuperSirius]

Assuming you stay below the ilvl 290/295?? (cant remember) threshold (equiv gear to the raid itself) healing requirements will be alot higher than before, possible even higher than in wrath (not definitive as of yet, would need to do some more testing but I doubt this will happen till pre-patch hits due not enough people are interested on beta/ptr) dps requirements i'm not quite sure of IMO, most "good" melee dps dps are coming in-between 15k-22k not stating which is the highest because blizzard are currently bricking themselves and are just throwing patches up left right and centre and everything is accustomed to change all I can say is WOLOLO AEROBIN JUST JELLY HE AINT MASTA RACE -POKE- -POKE-, as for casters I have no idea the dmg seemed a little low but I haven't played fire in PVE. i'll just wait too see what sim's come out like and some people who can actually play the specs. i.e. zmirnoff/awesomeyo/snow.

What class/spec/ilvl are doing 15-22k, from a melee class. I don't have a dk cause they never interested me but I have ret//warrior(arms and fury) and even an 85 rogue in 410's with legendaries not even doing above 8K and I fucking destroy on that rogue on live along. The ret is in all 277's/284's with shadowmourne, same thing with my warrior. I managed to test hunter in all 277's/284's and also swapped to my 409 pistol and usually did around 5.1K as MM but survival is really slacking at around 3.6K in that ilvl. Didn't try BM. If it really is just one of those classes just with like 333 or w/e you can get with all mop gear and stuff that's pretty silly.

 

[Aelobin]

What class/spec/ilvl are doing 15-22k, from a melee class.

It's simmed DPS in BiS twink gear including the ilvl bonus vs WotLK content. Frost DK is roughly 18-19k and Fury Warrior is on top with 21-22k. That info is thanks to Zmirnoff who I think is still working on a full break-down of most/all the DPS specs at level 80.

 

[SuperSirius]

It's simmed DPS in BiS twink gear including the ilvl bonus vs WotLK content. Frost DK is roughly 18-19k and Fury Warrior is on top with 21-22k. That info is thanks to Zmirnoff who I think is still working on a full break-down of most/all the DPS specs at level 80.

Ah I see, flasktaur on the beta currently sells ilvl 588-600 necks/cloaks/rings for enchant testing and they have no level requirement so I threw that onto my ret pally which brought my ilvl from 279 to 362(rofl). I went to a dummy to test and it was like a 1.5K dps increase. I'll prob just have to run into icc or something or around the world to see some stuff.

Anywhere we can find the sim stuff like if its posted anywhere?

 

[Zmirnøff]

Ah I see, flasktaur on the beta currently sells ilvl 588-600 necks/cloaks/rings for enchant testing and they have no level requirement so I threw that onto my ret pally which brought my ilvl from 279 to 362(rofl). I went to a dummy to test and it was like a 1.5K dps increase. I'll prob just have to run into icc or something or around the world to see some stuff.

Anywhere we can find the sim stuff like if its posted anywhere?

Numbers are still changing every patch (few times a week), I still have all casters to do (I'm not hopeful for their DPS). I'll post them when 6.0 goes live. Hopefully they won't change much from then on.