A Message from the Majority of the Hardcore 19ers

[Karmaz]

This was in response to/adding onto the thread Saxxon made entitled: "death of 19s"




I believe I speak on the behalf of the majority of the "Hardcore/Elite" players, enjoy.


And just when i thought we were starting to make some progress I look at the first page of 19s and see a thread getting closed. (@mods thread for clarification)

Sure it was because the contents were pretty meaningless but at the same time the reason why it was closed was a smaller issue with the bigger one being ignored.

The Code of Conduct is to be used as the reservation of the right to hand out disciplinary action, but the biggest problem with the moderation currently is the nature and intensity in which it is being interpreted.

Things are NOT always black and white, good or bad, right or wrong. You as the moderators are charged with not just upholding the CoC but also with interpreting its' contents and using it to help better our community(ies) (at least I hope that's one of the reason why you took the job). I would find it hard to believe (as an example) that you would be stripped of your power for not closing an "@Thread" if you had a justifiable and logical reason for allowing it to stay open, say it served a purpose of getting in contact with someone or if you wished to publicly address someone or part of the community for a non-malicious reason.

Like I said before, things are not just black and white.

Also, there seems to be a cultural shift developing over the past few years where "Prevention and Preemptive" actions are being seen in such positive terms that it has become and ideal everyone strives for. I do not believe that this is proper course of action that is necessary. As much as it may seem counter intuitive and/or even illogical, I feel that in a public forum it is in the best interest of the community and its' health to allow conversations to occur, and only to intervene when things get out of hand. When I say out of hand I mean when the conversation devolves into mudslinging and substanceless insults.

There is nothing wrong with having a heated debate or a disagreement. Having random people chime in (whether it be constructive or even for a petty jab) it adds a certain feel to the conversation and makes it a little more real, improving the experience as a whole.

Someone touched on the issue of people becoming too sensitive and over protective and I have to agree with them. People are getting too defensive over really minor things and trying to cover each other in layers of proverbial bubble wrap to try and shield themselves and others from any harm that could possibly arise. To be honest, even though the intentions may be pure, it really does a lot more harm then help and when you end up running into those situations in life where bubble wrap is no where to be found, you will be in for a world of hurt and lacking in the experience/tools to deal with this pain.


In closing, it is our job as community members to communicate with the moderation team along with some transparency in return.

Be conscious that it becomes very difficult to do this when our pleas are either ignored or silenced.

- 19 Community

 

[saxxon]

It's true and its a very very dark time, i think this could be some of the longest time since 19s on US had a pop, it sucks. We just have to keep on spreading awareness of what the problem appears to be and hope that one day balance will return to the warsong and people return to the bracket

 

[Karmaz]

It's true and its a very very dark time, i think this could be some of the longest time since 19s on US had a pop, it sucks. We just have to keep on spreading awareness of what the problem appears to be and hope that one day balance will return to the warsong and people return to the bracket

#6.0

We can only hope.

 

[saxxon]

yea, hopefully with a return of skirmishes we will see a competitive 19 scene develop again.

 

[Laurenti]

I normaly don't agree with ya derv, but I agree wholeheartedly on this. I am aware that I may not be considered a "Hardcore/Elite" player by any means, just thought I would put in my $0.02 . Conversations/dissagreements/arguments should be allowed to occur. As derv stated if it gets to the point of calling each other pointless names then yes it should be regulated. Otherwise, let the tinks speak their minds. There are actually some smart people out there!

 

[funkychicken]

We will never know of the moderation was the real killer of the bracket, although without a doubt it must of had something to do with it, unless we could go back and time and see what happens if the moderation wasn't so tight.
I'm not saying your wrong, we just dont really know.
I do agree that the moderation is too tight. Throughout life I've come to realize that people I know are intrested in other peoples drama and fights. I know I can't speak for everybody that quit playing 19s, but who says the same can't apply here. Drama just keeps things interesting. This site doesn't need to be an adult enviorment, video games are used to escape the real world, so why should this website be a reflection of it
P.s.: saxxon don't let anybody tell you that you are just complaining on rhe forums. Clearly people are rallying behind you, if people don't put these thoughts out here in the open like this then how will the mods know that people share this common frustration?

 

[funkychicken]

Remember when we had to use the battle group forums? The rules here need to be as loose as the offical wow forums back then

 

[Sputnick]

If anything this moderation has damaged was over EU activity (which is solid enough to not rely on forums), as the majority of players banned were, infact, european players.

Anything else are just backseaters trying to come up with an excuse to their own lazyness. Man up and build something.

 

[clarification]

Karmaz didn't mention the word "ban" a single time in his post. There are more ways to shut down discussions and activity than just bans.

Also, the vast majority of the EU players you mention played in both regions.

On topic: Great read, and very true indeed.

 

[saxxon]

it was 2 months ago sputnik and you weren't relevant at the time, most of the players who took a hit were US players who have moved on from posting here

 

[Sputnick]

Karmaz didn't mention the word "ban" a single time in his post.

Sputnick didn't quote "Karmaz" a single time in his post, and the "majority" of EU players you're talking about play in Europe, exclusively. Don't need to point you out why.

 

[funkychicken]

If anything this moderation has damaged was over EU activity (which is solid enough to not rely on forums), as the majority of players banned were, infact, european players.

Anything else are just backseaters trying to come up with an excuse to their own lazyness. Man up and build something.

Something should be "built up", but don't tell these people that they are sitting on their asses complaining. If people just stay silent about this problem then there is never going to be change. The mods need to see that there is a common frustration among the players.
Sure, you can go ahead and say that a majority of the players ban were Europeans, but that doesn't disprove what these guys are saying about the mods on this site. Mods here should enforce the rules the way that blizzard mods did when we had to use the battlegroup forums.

 

[clarification]

Sputnick didn't quote "Karmaz" a single time in his post, and the "majority" of EU players you're talking about play in Europe, exclusively. Don't need to point you out why.

So Sputnick made a post without any relevance to the OP or any other post in the thread? Well, that's new.

The players I am talking about are the ones who got banned, and those players played in both regions, as I mentioned before.

 

[Karmaz]

We will never know of the moderation was the real killer of the bracket, although without a doubt it must of had something to do with it, unless we could go back and time and see what happens if the moderation wasn't so tight.
I'm not saying your wrong, we just dont really know.
I do agree that the moderation is to tight. Throughout life I've cone to realize that people I know are intrested in other peoples drama and fights. I know I can't speak for everybody that quit playing 19s, but who says the same can't apply here. Drama just keeps things interesting. This site doesn't need to be an adult enviorment, video games are used to escape the real world, so why should this website be a reflection of it
P.s.: saxxon don't let anybody tell you that you are just complaining on rhe forums. Clearly people are rallying behind you, if people don't put these thoughts out here in the open like this then how will the mods know that people share this common frustration?

Moderation isn't the sole reason that 19s have fallen into a decline, or as I like to call it --- as pessimistic as it may seem --- ,dead.

But I can say with absolute confidence it was a majority contributor to the downfall of the community as a whole, it gave off a really casual feel and prevented a lot of conflict, but by the same token it also stopped a lot of competition from ever occurring.

Some of the other major factors that have caused this shift to inactivity are the following:

Players Age - With the community "growing up" physically/mentally (unfortunately some of which only physically) and going onto different stages in their lives : School, family, work, other hobbies etc

Game Quality - With the pool of "oldschool/regulars" gradually getting smaller and smaller the issue started to perpetuate itself as less and less good or even slightly above average players queued. This decreased motivation for PuGing which really keeps the lifeblood of a bracket flowing.

Bad Mechanics - Some classes being far and away better than others, the lack of reward for casting, and too much mobility for some classes and not enough for others. WSG being shortened to 20 minutes from 25 made a massive difference and stopped a lot of games short of where they should have gone.

Boring Meta - As much as I see its' strategic relevance and superiority the mid strat does make for somewhat stale games and with Brewmaster coming into the game it made capitalizing on kills in mid less important and degredated the speed of play making for really long and stretched out games and elongated pushes that were much less effective.

5.4 Enchants - Do I really have to say it? The weapon enchants just added an extremely powerful RNG and unpredictable element to the bracket which is why some people stayed away from endgame/higher brackets. Ontop of passive enchants allowing players to go for more red gem dps stats which further increased an already hurting damage:burst:health ratio.

Adding the over moderation that has taken place over the past year or so; these are some of the major factors (off the top of my head) that have aided us in this unfortunate and uncomfortable situation. I remain optimistic for what 6.0 could hold for us, but I do have my reservations.

 

[Sputnick]

So Sputnick made a post without any relevance to the OP or any other post in the thread? Well, that's new.

The players I am talking about are the ones who got banned, and those players played in both regions, as I mentioned before.

And? More than half the people who queue everyday in Europe got no awareness of what twinkinfo is. You can build something solid without something external. I don't mean that TI is irrelevant to the health of this bracket, I'm just saying that the bracket shouldn't entirely depend on something external.

I build activity everyday, with or without TI. So even if the banned players played both regions, I don't think the bans would be a cause or an excuse to let the bracket die.

EDIT: By the time they were banned, the US region was already dead.

 

[Karmaz]

And? More than half the people who queue everyday in Europe got no awareness of what twinkinfo is. You can build something solid without something external. I don't mean that TI is irrelevant to the health of this bracket, I'm just saying that the bracket shouldn't entirely depend on something external.

I build activity everyday, with or without TI. So even if the banned players played both regions, I don't think the bans would be a cause or an excuse to let the bracket die.

Perhaps you were busy writing that response while I had made the post above yours.

You may want to take a gander at it. The above post should shed some light on what I am trying to convey and the shortfalls/misunderstandings you are having with exactly what I am trying to say.

TI and the Moderation Crisis are a major contributing factor to the declining health and stagnation of the US bracket, although its' fault is not entirely responsible for holding the bracket back from activity.

 

[dartofblue]

lol

 

[Nakedplumber]

Jesus save us all

 

[clarification]

And? More than half the people who queue everyday in Europe got no awareness of what twinkinfo is. You can build something solid without something external. I don't mean that TI is irrelevant to the health of this bracket, I'm just saying that the bracket shouldn't entirely depend on something external.

I build activity everyday, with or without TI. So even if the banned players played both regions, I don't think the bans would be a cause or an excuse to let the bracket die.

EDIT: By the time they were banned, the US region was already dead.

I am quite sure it is less than half. But those people are also the ones sitting on the alliance graveyard on a daily basis, supplying Tough Love with free HKs. Those people do not make for competitive games, they are cannon fodder in subpar PuGs.

It takes more than that to get good games. The players carrying those PuGs are the ones who do know about Twinkinfo, and alliance lacks those veteran players. What you "built" on Draenor is nothing but a playground for Tough Love.

EU 19s is not the flourishing bracket you make it out to be, it is a bracket where alliance wins three to four games per week, where most alliance players spend more time on their graveyard than anywhere else in the gulch.

 

[Sputnick]

Moderation isn't the sole reason that 19s have fallen into a decline, or as I like to call it --- as pessimistic as it may seem --- ,dead.

But I can say with absolute confidence it was a majority contributor to the downfall of the community as a whole, it gave off a really casual feel and prevented a lot of conflict, but by the same token it also stopped a lot of competition from ever occurring.

Some of the other major factors that have caused this shift to inactivity are the following:

Players Age - With the community "growing up" physically/mentally (unfortunately some of which only physically) and going onto different stages in their lives : School, family, work, other hobbies etc

Game Quality - With the pool of "oldschool/regulars" gradually getting smaller and smaller the issue started to perpetuate itself as less and less good or even slightly above average players queued. This decreased motivation for PuGing which really keeps the lifeblood of a bracket flowing.

Bad Mechanics - Some classes being far and away better than others, the lack of reward for casting, and too much mobility for some classes and not enough for others. WSG being shortened to 20 minutes from 25 made a massive difference and stopped a lot of games short of where they should have gone.

Boring Meta - As much as I see its' strategic relevance and superiority the mid strat does make for somewhat stale games and with Brewmaster coming into the game it made capitalizing on kills in mid less important and degredated the speed of play making for really long and stretched out games and elongated pushes that were much less effective.

5.4 Enchants - Do I really have to say it? The weapon enchants just added an extremely powerful RNG and unpredictable element to the bracket which is why some people stayed away from endgame/higher brackets. Ontop of passive enchants allowing players to go for more red gem dps stats which further increased an already hurting damage:burst:health ratio.

Adding the over moderation that has taken place over the past year or so; these are some of the major factors (off the top of my head) that have aided us in this unfortunate and uncomfortable situation. I remain optimistic for what 6.0 could hold for us, but I do have my reservations.

Perhaps you were busy writing that response while I had made the post above yours.

You may want to take a gander at it. The above post should shed some light on what I am trying to convey and the shortfalls/misunderstandings you are having with exactly what I am trying to say.

TI and the Moderation Crisis are a major contributing factor to the declining health and stagnation of the US bracket, although its' fault is not entirely responsible for holding the bracket back from activity.

Some of your points are valid, yet others are very subjective. When you talk about the players age, you never open the posibility that this community is composed by both old and new players, as you point out the growth of the community as a whole. You make the community look homogeneous, when in fact it's composed by micro-communities, who rarely (or entirely) even interact with eachother. You also make it look like (on your game quality part), that an oldschooler or regular automatically brings quality games. It's true that a regular might bring some quality games duo to his dedication and experience, but saying an oldschooler can levarage the fields of battle is subjective at best. Also, you call out about the boring meta, it's subjective. It's boring to you. I'm probably the oldest player in this thread, and I find this new meta amusing. It's something new, and I'm pretty sure that many people share the same opinion, or there would be no premades going or interest in organized wargames. And last but not least, the enchant part. It brought a whole new possibility of playstyles to the classes, that's why there are yet no BiS sets. There are just so many things you can do with this patch, that it will still take some time to figure. But I understand your point here, as you haven't had the chance to decently experience 5.4.