85 DK: Which helm and legs?

[Aelobin]

Posting this for anyone else who's wondering whether they should be using the high hit/exp head and legs, or opting for the lower ilvl alternatives instead. This was done for my 85 Orc DK, which means if you're a different race you may need to alter this as needed. Also bare in mind that some items don't have the correct stats on Wowreforge (nor ilvl upgrades) so you'll need to check and fix those manually.

Caps are 769 hit and 666 exp. I input these into Wowreforge along with my normal Blood DPS / Frost stat weights, and this is the closest it could get to each cap (hit / exp).
- Both: 8.5 / 9.5
- Legs: 7.8 / 8
- Head: 7.5 / 7.7
- Neither: 7.8 / 7.5

This doesn't show us much but I just wanted to see if any of the options would be extremely overcapped and also get a vague idea of which would waste the least secondary stats on hit/exp.

Next I compared the 4 different options on Wowhead: Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

And here's the overall stat differences, ignoring hit/exp for now:
- Both: 157sta + 49str
- Legs: 84sta + 103crit + 171haste
- Head: 73sta + 144str + 383crit + 131haste
- Neither: 95str + 486crit + 302haste

Straight away, it's quite obvious that using just the head would be better than using just the legs or both, so I removed those 2 from the list. I probably shouldn't have dismissed them without taking hit/exp into account, but I'm pretty sure using both/legs would put you well over the caps (from the first step).

Now to compare the stat difference of the remaining 2 options:
- Head: 73sta + 49str
- Neither: 103crit + 171haste

From that you might think using neither is better but we have to look at the entire gear set to take hit/exp caps into consideration, so back to Wowreforge:
- Head: 5325haste, 3168crit, 686exp, 773hit, 1523mast
- Neither: 5496haste, 2941crit, 667exp, 801hit, 1523mast

Which leaves us with this final comparison:
- Head: 73sta + 49str + 227crit + (20exp over cap + 4hit over cap)
- Neither: 171haste + (1exp over cap + 32hit over cap)

Old TLDR: I think it is worth using Edwyn's Toothy Visage but not Greatheart Pants. If you disagree or see any mistakes I've made, please tell me

New TLDR: The Wowhead item compare wasn't including socket bonuses, so it ends up being best to use Davidian's and the Ghost-Forged/Tier legs, with the 417 belt.

--

Edit: I think I've ruled out the 450 belt and 425 legs through other means.

 

[Sushibanks]

Great post, I second that ^ Although I'm still using Davidian's All-seeing Eyes

 

[Aelobin]

I think the 415 BS shoulders are probably better than the 416 DS shoulders for both blood dps and frost.

Edit: Zmirnoff and I are doing some more theorycrafting/simming/testing which is showing the 433 helm might not be right afterall. Will post when we have more info.

Edit2: Just realised, Wowhead's item comparison isn't taking socket bonuses into account for some reason (I swear it used to 0.o)

 

[Zmirnøff]

Blah blah blah, 2pc for frost is more valuable than 415 of the hero (crit/haste) shoulders and legs. By around 0.74%, so really if you want a second howling blast to do occasionally then pick it up, if not go for the 415 shoulders and legs.

Now I should probably point out that this 0.74% increase with the 2pc was from me simming my own character, I have JC'ing, thus I have double bonuses from it, 67 str gemsx3 in the legs. It'd be 0.47% DPS increase with 50 str gems in them.

And if anyone was actually considering using the 425 legs, you should be shot to death and be removed from the gene pool.

Below was just my initial stat observations, later on I changed a few things, slightly edited the reforges on the best sims and changed out a 320 Str JC gem for a 480 Haste one.

433 Helm + 450 Belt
10528 DPS
21170 AP
74.94% Haste
7.55s Rune Speed
9.59% Hit
23.87% Crit
7.52% Expertise
29.21% Mastery

433 Helm + 417 Belt
10536 DPS
20806 AP
75.93% Haste
7.50s Rune Speed
7.52% Hit
25.05% Crit
7.51% Expertise
29.21% Mastery

425 Helm + 417 Belt
10686 DPS
21108 AP
77.69% Haste
7.43s Rune Speed
7.67% Hit
23.75% Crit
7.50% Expertise
29.21% Mastery

425 Helm + 450 Belt
10677 DPS
21471 AP
76.71% Haste
7.47s Rune Speed
8.85% Hit
23.08% Crit
7.50% Expertise
29.21% Mastery

----------------------
Dropping 2pc for Embodiment Legs + Shoulders
433 Helm + 450 Belt
10533 DPS
20752 AP
76.03% Haste
7.50s Rune Speed
9.59% Hit
23.16% Crit
7.52% Expertise
31.23% Mastery

433 Helm + 417 Belt
10542 DPS
20388 AP
77.01% Haste
7.46s Rune Speed
7.55% Hit
24.33% Crit
7.50% Expertise
31.23% Mastery

425 Helm + 417 Belt
10638 DPS
20690 AP
77.87% Haste
7.42s Rune Speed
7.67% Hit
23.53% Crit
7.50% Expertise
31.23% Mastery

425 Helm + 450 Belt
10684 DPS
21053 AP
77.79% Haste
7.42s Rune Speed
8.85% Hit
22.37% Crit
7.50% Expertise
31.23% Mastery

Final Sims for Frost DK.
Using 2pc T13 /w 3x67str in legs, 1x50str+1x25str/25haste in shoulders
Simcraft DPS: 87,319
Attack Power: 18,517
Haste: 82.90%
Hit Chance: 7.67%
Crit Chance: 23.61%
Expertise: 7.50%
Mastery: 29.21%

Using non-2pc T13
Simcraft DPS: 86,741
Attack Power: 18,137
Haste: 82.82%
Hit Chance: 7.67%
Crit Chance: 25.77%
Expertise: 7.50%
Mastery: 23.78%

At such high levels of haste, crit is starting to take priority over haste in stat weights, but not by a significant amount. I could spend days fine tuning stats. But I cba, so point for point... Str > Haste > Crit > Mastery.

Just re-confirming I seen a DPS increase from reforging a little more into crit from haste at high haste levels. Currently at 80.58% Haste and 24.87% Crit self buffed, seems to be a good place for my gear.

 

[Sushibanks]

Use 2 set H DS, shoulders/legs

 

[Splosion]

I can imagine all of this changes for DW next patch with the 1handers, as well as unholy recieving some decent buffs.

As a JWC, wouldn't the str gems end up being better than the haste ones despite the weapon damage, just because you gain 160 str vs gaining 160 haste (roughly half what you should get)?

 

[Zmirnøff]

I can imagine all of this changes for DW next patch with the 1handers, as well as unholy recieving some decent buffs.

As a JWC, wouldn't the str gems end up being better than the haste ones despite the weapon damage, just because you gain 160 str vs gaining 160 haste (roughly half what you should get)?

Well, unless you're a JC/BS you can really only put the JC MoP gems in helm and belt anyway, helm is a yellow with 180 str bonus, so you'd have to be retarded to put a 320 str gem in it.

So it's 480 haste vs 320 str. Simmed both for peace of mind. Just patchwerk stylee.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/72388705/480 haste gem.html


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/72388705/320 str gem.html

PS. Ignore the scale factors, everytime I do a new sim they fucking change.

 

[Splosion]

Fair play. Final question -> Using 2pc t13, wouldn't it be more useful to gem haste and str/haste as opposed to str and str/haste (in the shoulders), given just how close haste and str seem to be?

 

[Aelobin]

Still trying to decide which helm/belt combination to use for soloing (god knows how long I've wasted on this now >_>).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnBPvCvqWJ3udE16WExWcXlCODhvenBmOFY3RmcxWWc&usp=sharing

 

[Sushibanks]

I'm using the 417 belt, the 450 one is kinda pointless except for the little extra str. I rather gain the Crit/Haste>a little str

 

[Aelobin]

I'm using the 417 belt, the 450 one is kinda pointless except for the little extra str. I rather gain the Crit/Haste>a little str

For Frost definitely, but I still value the stam and other defensive stats as it's for soloing in my case

 

[Zmirnøff]

Fair play. Final question -> Using 2pc t13, wouldn't it be more useful to gem haste and str/haste as opposed to str and str/haste (in the shoulders), given just how close haste and str seem to be?

Probably, I did a little bit of testing on this, replaced all gems with pure haste gems, obviously I lost the 2 socket bonuses but it didn't seem like it would help matters. JC gems at least wouldn't and str although is close to haste in value, it is still higher, so 67 str and for that matter 50 str beats out 67 and 50 haste respectively.

I'll try it later if I remember. I'm not really crossing my fingers as like I said earlier to get a DPS increase I've already had to remove some haste anyway.

 

[hstangnatsh]

all those sexy calculations... gao ji bu~~

 

[Aelobin]

I've been playing around with reforge plots to try figure out the exact balance between haste and crit as 2h frost (not using any Cata items atm).

Variables used:
- Orc (+1% exp)
- 5069 haste
- 4409 crit
- 10k iterations
- Patchwerk Style
- 250 second fight (20% variance, so 3-5min)
- Buffs: Attack Power / Attack Speed / Kings
- Debuffs: Physical Vunerability

Range: 3000, Step: 200

Range: 750, Step: 50 (I think?)

Range: 500, Step 25

Range: 200, Step: 25

Super Troopers - Enhance - YouTube

So it looks like roughly 5216-5220 haste (147-151 more) is the sweet-spot for my "MoP BiS" gear profile. That would change with BL, additional buffs/debuffs, the 2set bonus, different fight lengths or possibly as a different race too.

Edit: Oops, that side of the scale is "Haste to Crit", so I need 147-151 less haste (4918-4922 haste).

 

[Aelobin]

There

Least amount of stats wasted on overcapping hit/exp with the perfect balance between haste and crit rating (by using 1 crit gem).

Here's the profile for anyone interested:

deathknight="Aelo"
origin="http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-maelstrom/Aelo/advanced"
thumbnail="http://eu.battle.net/static-render/eu/the-maelstrom/154/83209114-avatar.jpg"
level=85
race=orc
spec=frost
role=attack
position=back
professions=alchemy=576/blacksmithing=600
talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZ!12000.
glyphs=antimagic_shell/icy_touch/death_and_decay/path_of_frost/army_of_the_dead/deaths_embrace

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=charbroiled_tiger_steak
actions.precombat+=/frost_presence
actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion
actions.precombat+=/blood_fury
actions.precombat+=/pillar_of_frost
actions.precombat+=/raise_dead

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=daelos_final_words,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<1|dot.frost_fever.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>76
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=blood=2|frost=2|unholy=2
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&frost=0
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack<=10
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up|buff.golemblood_potion.up)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>=20
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

head=davidians_allseeing_eyes,id=87455,gems=reverberating_primal_320crit_180str,reforge=hit_crit
neck=razorsharp_chitin_choker,id=87623,reforge=mastery_haste
shoulders=ghostforged_shoulders_of_the_hero,id=82928,suffix=-102,enchant=200str_100crit
back=brilliant_cloak_of_wu_the_younger,id=87430,enchant=180crit,reforge=crit_exp
chest=cryptwardens_breastplate,id=87424,enchant=80str_80sta,reforge=haste_exp
wrists=bracers_of_the_frozen_summit,id=87620,gems=320haste,enchant=180str,reforge=haste_exp
hands=gauntlets_of_blurring_fingers,id=87445,gems=320haste,enchant=170str,reforge=mastery_crit
waist=waistguard_of_flaming_words,id=87504,gems=320haste,reforge=crit_exp
legs=ghostforged_legplates_of_the_hero,id=82931,suffix=-102,enchant=285str_165crit
feet=blackfooted_greatboots,id=87433,enchant=140mastery,reforge=crit_exp
finger1=pestilential_ring,id=87439,reforge=haste_hit
finger2=pestilential_ring,id=87439,reforge=haste_hit
trinket1=zen_alchemist_stone,id=75274,reforge=mastery_haste,upgrade=1
trinket2=daelos_final_words,id=87496,reforge=hit_haste
main_hand=sunlute_of_the_phoenix_king,id=44924,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,reforge=mastery_haste,upgrade=2

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=8101
# gear_stamina=10625
# gear_expertise_rating=666
# gear_hit_rating=783
# gear_crit_rating=4577
# gear_haste_rating=4920
# gear_mastery_rating=1523
# gear_armor=25756
# meta_gem=reverberating_primal
# trinket1=zen_alchemist_stone
# main_hand=sunlute_of_the_phoenix_king,weapon=axe2h_3.80speed_12154min_20258max,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

---

Edit: Last night after finishing all that theorycrafting, I realised I could gain 14 secondary stats by having my hit rating 2 under the cap (using a 160 gem). Don't know why I'm min-maxing to these extremes with 5.2 just around the corner and no 2set bonus, but meh! Here's the profile for anyone interested in 2h frost BiS (MoP only gear):

#!./simc

deathknight="Aelo"
origin="http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-maelstrom/Aelo/advanced"
thumbnail="http://eu.battle.net/static-render/eu/the-maelstrom/154/83209114-avatar.jpg"
level=85
race=orc
spec=frost
role=attack
position=back
professions=alchemy=576/blacksmithing=600
talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZ!12000.
glyphs=antimagic_shell/icy_touch/death_and_decay/path_of_frost/army_of_the_dead/deaths_embrace

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=charbroiled_tiger_steak
actions.precombat+=/frost_presence
actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion
actions.precombat+=/blood_fury
actions.precombat+=/pillar_of_frost
actions.precombat+=/raise_dead

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=daelos_final_words,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<1|dot.frost_fever.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(!dot.frost_fever.ticking|!dot.blood_plague.ticking)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>76
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=blood=2|frost=2|unholy=2
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&frost=0
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack<=10
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up|buff.golemblood_potion.up)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&runic_power>=20
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

head=davidians_allseeing_eyes,id=87455,gems=reverberating_primal_160haste_160hit_180str,reforge=hit_crit
neck=razorsharp_chitin_choker,id=87623,reforge=mastery_haste
shoulders=ghostforged_shoulders_of_the_hero,id=82928,suffix=-102,enchant=200str_100crit,reforge=crit_exp
back=brilliant_cloak_of_wu_the_younger,id=87430,enchant=180crit,reforge=crit_exp
chest=cryptwardens_breastplate,id=87424,enchant=80str_80sta
wrists=bracers_of_the_frozen_summit,id=87620,gems=320haste,enchant=180str
hands=gauntlets_of_blurring_fingers,id=87445,gems=320haste,enchant=170str,reforge=mastery_crit
waist=waistguard_of_flaming_words,id=87504,gems=320haste,reforge=haste_exp
legs=ghostforged_legplates_of_the_hero,id=82931,suffix=-102,enchant=285str_165crit,reforge=crit_exp
feet=blackfooted_greatboots,id=87433,enchant=140mastery
finger1=pestilential_ring,id=87439,reforge=haste_exp
finger2=pestilential_ring,id=87439,reforge=haste_exp
trinket1=zen_alchemist_stone,id=75274,reforge=mastery_crit,upgrade=1
trinket2=daelos_final_words,id=87496,reforge=hit_haste
main_hand=sunlute_of_the_phoenix_king,id=44924,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,reforge=mastery_haste,upgrade=2

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=8101
# gear_stamina=10625
# gear_expertise_rating=666
# gear_hit_rating=767
# gear_crit_rating=4598
# gear_haste_rating=4915
# gear_mastery_rating=1523
# gear_armor=25756
# meta_gem=reverberating_primal
# trinket1=zen_alchemist_stone
# main_hand=sunlute_of_the_phoenix_king,weapon=axe2h_3.80speed_12154min_20258max,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

That's 89,553 dps (25k iterations, other settings the same as before) with no stats wasted on overcapping hit/exp and the perfect balance between haste/crit.