Is America An Empire In Decline?

Doop

Doop

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    • I know those of you who spend a lot of time in The Tavern are probably tired of me posting here, but this is an interesting and realistic topic. Most of you probably know the Roman empire lasted almost a thousand years and up until its collapse most Romans thought the relative prosperity would somehow last forever. America has been around for close to 250 years, and is still going strong. Currently we are in an economic recession, but the recession is worldwide and America has been through many recessions before. On the other hand, Americans work somewhat less than other superpowers like China, Japan, and Canada (The Hardest Working Countries In The World - Business Insider). In addition, the outsourcing of jobs to people who will do the same job for less money is always a concern to Americans.
    Supposedly imperialism is over, so I don't think America will ever "collapse" like Rome did per say, but I don't rule out the fact that anything can happen and other countries will probably become economically superior to America at some point in the future. Obviously it's anyone's guess what will happen and I'm unsure myself, what do you guys think will happen to the world's top superpower, America, in the future and when if anything?
     
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    offshore outsourcing/outsourcing isnt necessarily a problem

    but yes. mostly because the government sucks in general
     
    Economic collapse is inevitable with the rate of inflation (look at what the housing market has done in the past 5 years in the US). I am of the opinion that a worldwide depression is coming soon and America might be at the forefront of it.

    I could dive further into my thoughts, but then I am just going to get on a "staunch Republican" political rally and I don't want to do that :)
     
    I would argue that no. Yes China may become more powerful than America because of there sheer numbers and there willingness to work hard. However I believe that no where will the quality of life be better than in America where we have formed unions have laws to promote fair labor etc. However I am not an expert I am just giving my opinion as a proud and happy American.... Also i just had one more thought. We most likely will not go on a large depression anytime soon as currently things are slowly but surely getting better.
     
    I believe America is declining economically (but not militarily) for a couple of reason;

    Unions hinder big business (although they should be kept, because humanity > economic growth)

    The system of lobbying is more or less legalized corruption and does hurt small business

    We let people come here on visas to go to our colleges but then won't give them jobs and sometimes even kick them out because they are immigrants.

    It is too hard to immigrate to America, if there's anything illegal immigration tells us is that it should be made easier; they are all potential members of the workforce.

    Our pre-college educational system sucks; it's not that it has gotten worse, it's always been bad, other counties have just gotten better at it.

    Our work ethic is terrible. Here if you do bad in school it's just because you don't get it and it's ok, while in other countries they say it's because your not working hard enough.
     
    verh said:
    I believe America is declining economically (but not militarily) for a couple of reason;

    Unions hinder big business (although they should be kept, because humanity > economic growth)

    The system of lobbying is more or less legalized corruption and does hurt small business

    We let people come here on visas to go to our colleges but then won't give them jobs and sometimes even kick them out because they are immigrants.

    It is too hard to immigrate to America, if there's anything illegal immigration tells us is that it should be made easier; they are all potential members of the workforce.

    Our pre-college educational system sucks; it's not that it has gotten worse, it's always been bad, other counties have just gotten better at it.

    Our work ethic is terrible. Here if you do bad in school it's just because you don't get it and it's ok, while in other countries they say it's because your not working hard enough.
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    I agree with almost all of this except in addition to the work ethic part for the school example I would actually blame that more on our overconfidence in our selfs and how the majority of schools pre college (and in some colleges even) try to build you up cause being hard on yourself is bad in america for some reason.
     
    Nakedplumber said:
    Im from Canada and we are quite far from being a powerful country...
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    Only because you drink milk from bags :confused:. No, but seriously, Canada is a prosperous country, just not a country with a beefed up military or "national identity". Being economically powerful is a big way to influence the rest of the world, and having the 10th largest GDP means you are economically powerful. I believe you are Canadian since you're being so modest :p.

    And yeah, like you guys pointed out, government programs and unions and whatnot seem to make life happier for us Americans (although it's debatable, some people think being more or less self reliant is a happier lifestyle; I'm not sure which results in a happier life to be honest). But like verh said, government programs and spending for quality of life hinder us economically to an extent. I've been throwing around ideas in my head that maybe we are (in this age of less wars and more trading between nations) seeing the beginning of some sort of cycle where the most capitalist nations reap the biggest reward and then gradually lose their competitive edge as they spend more on well-being programs and such and other countries become more purely capitalist and overtake these formerly Gilded-age type countries. So basically a cycle of pure capitalism --> sense of entitlement and thus programs to increase well being --> falling from most powerful position (at least to an extent). This is just pure speculation though, and obviously I'm no economist.
     
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    Doop said:
    Only because you drink milk from bags :confused:. No, but seriously, Canada is a prosperous country, just not a country with a beefed up military or "national identity". Being economically powerful is a big way to influence the rest of the world, and having the 10th largest GDP means you are economically powerful. I believe you are Canadian since you're being so modest :p.

    And yeah, like you guys pointed out, government programs and unions and whatnot seem to make life happier for us Americans (although it's debatable, some people think being more or less self reliant is a happier lifestyle; I'm not sure which results in a happier life to be honest). But like verh said, government programs and spending for quality of life hinder us economically to an extent. I've been throwing around ideas in my head that maybe we are (in this age of less wars and more trading between nations) seeing the beginning of some sort of cycle where the most capitalist nations reap the biggest reward and then gradually lose their competitive edge as they spend more on well-being programs and such and other countries become more purely capitalist and overtake these formerly Gilded-age type countries. So basically a cycle of pure capitalism --> sense of entitlement and thus programs to increase well being --> falling from most powerful position (at least to an extent). This is just pure speculation though, and obviously I'm no economist.
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    some good reading i would recommend to you sir might be of your interest. Both are by Jared diamond and imo are quite good especially the first but he has done a number of quality books.

    Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies
    Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed
     
    america is not in decline, the world is in an improvement
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    How so? Not disagreeing with you necessarily, but say more than just one sentence to explain what you mean, lol
     
    Merica never was a superpower; we've just been living in a dream world since the second world war. After which, the "greatest generation" rewarded themselves handsomely in pensions and social security for a victory mostly paid for in human lives by Russia. I guess as victors the US felt like they felt like they earned some kind of reward; never mind who eventually ended up paying for it. Since that time, America has been living an untenable lifestyle, and we maintained that delusion by stealing from the future, i.e. us, via social security and borrowing from other countries.

    We've been selling that same dream to the rest of the world under the guise of "democracy", but really never really was democracy that we were selling. Rather. it was really just the finical system (pyramid scheme) that enabled us to keep doing what we were doing. Eventually someone had to notice that we really weren't making money; I think that's where we're at now.

    However, I don't think the USA will really collapse, but I think she'll be taken down a peg or two -- a reality check that will put us back in our rightful place, among the rest of the countries of the world. It's high time that we get off the pedestal that we put ourselves up on, and stop pretending like were are somehow exceptional. We are a country in the world, full of regular people. Not a Superpower full of Superpeople.
     
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    srsbsns said:
    However, I don't think the USA will really collapse, but I think she'll be taken down a peg or two -- a reality check that will put us back in our rightful place, among the rest of the countries of the world. It's high time that we get off the pedestal that we put ourselves up on, and stop pretending like were are somehow exceptional. We are a country in the world, full of regular people. Not a Superpower full of Superpeople.
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    Yeah I have to agree with what you say, selling weapons to the allies in WW1 was our first taste of economic "superpower" status. We are basically war merchants and you could argue we got rich from blood money. Like Jon Stewart (or Steven Colbert, can't remember) said once, America could really use another war right about now. I would say that we were definitely THE superpower since the end of the 20th century up until around the mid 1900's, like you said.

    I don't think the USA will really collapse, but I think she'll be taken down a peg or two
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    Same here. Getting a little off topic here, but honestly I'm not really a patriot at all. Not because I jump on a bandwagon of hating America or anything, but because countries are there for simple functions that benefit the citizens. So I don't think I owe any allegiance to the country really, I just respect its rules (as long as I agree with them) because that's what its there for. As soon as a superior place to live pops up somewhere in the world, I would have no qualms about moving there. It's stupid to owe some sort of allegiance to this meta-concept of your home country. Country = serving the people (if you want it to serve you), so only choose the country that serves you best. Just my thoughts.
     
    verh said:
    Imo, the easiest way to increase our Economic power is
    a) a flat out income tax federally, maybe 50%, and only keep sin taxes
    b) make Immigration easier

    Or sell Texas to Mexico.
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    50% socialism, 50% capitalism, everyone wins >_>.
     
    verh said:
    Imo, the easiest way to increase our Economic power is
    a) a flat out income tax federally, maybe 50%, and only keep sin taxes
    b) make Immigration easier

    Or sell Texas to Mexico.
    Click to expand...

    I wouldn't mind selling texas to mexico but what are they going to pay us in? kilos or tons?
     
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