Ooh, another "How to get Shadowfang thread!"

Idk I think it will be funny as hell selling a gang of rogues getting 10+ ambushes on someone before they know what is going on
 
willix said:
Having Stealth doesn't make up for all the other tools you are losing. Tools that are not only necessary NOW to play a rogue well (beyond 2 shotting under geared players in 1v1) but they are necessary to accommodate for the buffs that most of the other classes are getting in MoP. How is a rogue going to deal with any class that doesn't die in two hits come MoP?

The rogue can't counter Conc shot and Disengage, the rogue can't counter Blink or Combat charge, the rogue isn't able to out run travel form or ghost wolf. The rogue can't CC in combat, and the rogue can't snare his targets. In all fairness to rogues right now, if they don't kill their target quickly, they run the risk of their target turning around and killing them in just a few hits.

The tools that rogues currently have to control that situation RIGHT NOW are barely adequate, especially in games where both sides have good competent players working well as a team. Rogues tend to be helpless against targets that don't die quickly, and losing all these tools isn't going to leave them in a good position.

Sure, Subterfuge will allow them to get in a few hits before stealth breaks, but do you really think that any class is really going to fall over dead in 3 seconds in an environment with ~500 hp bigger health pools and 30% base damage reduction available to all players?

I don't think you're being honest with anyone here.
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You seem to think WSG is all about 1v1. It's not. Sap CC has always been one of the reasons rogues have been used in premades. Like I said with picking your fights: why would you open up on someone 1v1 if you know you can't kill them solo? Rogues won't be trash. Sure we won't be solo players anymore, but with the damage we can put out and with kick, giving us the ability to sit on healers etc., we will still do great come MoP.

If you open up on someone while escorting your FC across and they blink/disengage then switch your targets. WSG is not how well you can kill a class 1v1. Fury warriors can still be of great use in Cata even though they practically lose 1v1's to every class.

Edit:

shanker said:
skill class, no way....in MOP.....class is trash, suck up your losses on your SF's and wait for next expansion. rogues will be cool bank alts like they were in most of WOTLK


you will never get away from a paladin, hunter, mage, or pretty much any class again. no gap closers, and many of you rogues have no clue with out gouge and crutch on it.


sneaky, you are the one talking trash, take your rogue now and remove SS, sprint, gouge. roll into BGs and give it a try before hunters have PB shooting, no more 6 sec CD weapon strikes, have a sprint/heal/etc after a DE. paladins before they speed talents no matter what their spec. don't use the excuse that you don't have the 3 sec opener or WTF ever talents using your SM racial on a combo. you'll never pull it off. no one is gonna stand in place and let someone pull 2 AMBs alone let enough 3 or 4. btw....AMB's will be seriously weak....seriously


no going to your hunter...either
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You too seem to have tunnel vision. Like I said, WSG is NOT about 1v1's...Sure our forte has been 1v1 but with the changes, just because we can't 1v1 anymore it doesn't mean we're trash. All it means is the play style will be different. A skill class, playing for the team. Don't tell me I'm talking trash when you have tunnel vision which is clearly restricting you from seeing the bigger picture.
 
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Seeing as rogues are being incredibly nerfed in MoP, that really inspires me to roll one for the challenge. I wish I didn't delete my ret paladin months ago though. >.<
 
You seem to think WSG is all about 1v1. It's not. Sap CC has always been one of the reasons rogues have been used in premades. Like I said with picking your fights: why would you open up on someone 1v1 if you know you can't kill them solo? Rogues won't be trash. Sure we won't be solo players anymore, but with the damage we can put out and with kick, giving us the ability to sit on healers etc., we will still do great come MoP.

If you open up on someone while escorting your FC across and they blink/disengage then switch your targets. WSG is not how well you can kill a class 1v1. Fury warriors can still be of great use in Cata even though they practically lose 1v1's to every class.
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You're completely missing the point. Right now, there are classes that most people simply don't even begin to consider playing in pvp because they DO NOT have the tools to be competitive. This is to say that you can instead pick this other class to play and GET the tools you need to be competitive.

So on the one hand you have a class that has good tools for use in group pvp.

On the other hand, you have a class that DOESN'T have good tools for use in group pvp.

Moreover, you have classes where picking one spec is a better choice over another because the tools it brings to pvp are essentially the same no matter the spec, it's just that X spec provides a much better basis for viability in pvp than the other.

It's like right now with rogues, Subtlety provides the best tool kit out of any of the 3 rogue specs. It's not just about damage, and it's certainly not about 1v1. If you spec as Assassin or Combat, you lose Shadow Step and Waylay. You lose extra movement speed in Stealth. Those things right there make the class most viable as a utility class, where you move around sapping people and the capability to maintain up time on a target through Waylay and Shadow Step.

So when you look at MoP, you are losing all these things as a rogue. You can no longer Gouge an opponent to buy 4 seconds of time. You can no longer Sprint as a tool to catch up to/out run someone. You no longer have the ability to trade Shadow Step with other abilities like Charge, Blink, or Disengage. You don't have Waylay to get snares on players in situations where you need them.

If your idea of amazing rogue play is to run around in stealth Sapping people, then good luck making that work for you in MoP. Next expansion, it will be better for pvp to simply pick any other class, than a rogue, which is why rogues are trash.
 
Gulbon said:
People will find a way. Rogues are going to be for the skilled people in MoP anyways. ^_^
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That's like saying that Enhancement Shamans and Fury Warriors are currently for the skilled players - you don't see anyone skilled playing them right now, simply because it's better to pick something else.
 
I currently have an Enhancement Shaman that I am gearing up, and I find it as OP as heck.

I am adaptable to almost all classes and class change situations in WoW when I play a few hours of it. I'm sure I can get the hang of a MoP rogue.
 
willix said:
You're completely missing the point. Right now, there are classes that most people simply don't even begin to consider playing in pvp because they DO NOT have the tools to be competitive. This is to say that you can instead pick this other class to play and GET the tools you need to be competitive.

So on the one hand you have a class that has good tools for use in group pvp.

On the other hand, you have a class that DOESN'T have good tools for use in group pvp.

Moreover, you have classes where picking one spec is a better choice over another because the tools it brings to pvp are essentially the same no matter the spec, it's just that X spec provides a much better basis for viability in pvp than the other.

It's like right now with rogues, Subtlety provides the best tool kit out of any of the 3 rogue specs. It's not just about damage, and it's certainly not about 1v1. If you spec as Assassin or Combat, you lose Shadow Step and Waylay. You lose extra movement speed in Stealth. Those things right there make the class most viable as a utility class, where you move around sapping people and the capability to maintain up time on a target through Waylay and Shadow Step.

So when you look at MoP, you are losing all these things as a rogue. You can no longer Gouge an opponent to buy 4 seconds of time. You can no longer Sprint as a tool to catch up to/out run someone. You no longer have the ability to trade Shadow Step with other abilities like Charge, Blink, or Disengage. You don't have Waylay to get snares on players in situations where you need them.

If your idea of amazing rogue play is to run around in stealth Sapping people, then good luck making that work for you in MoP. Next expansion, it will be better for pvp to simply pick any other class, than a rogue, which is why rogues are trash.
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Sap is invaluable. As long as we have that, stealth speed, and the crazy damage that we will have in MoP, we won't be trash. You're still not seeing the entire picture. Imagine playing games without the element of surprise (stealthed rogues) and sap CC (14 seconds of slowing people down).
 
As it is now on beta, i think rogues are currently the weakest class.
However, it's so early still that i feel any talk about being useless etc is just pointless. All rogues really need to be as good as other melee classes, is shadowstep.
 
I currently have an Enhancement Shaman that I am gearing up, and I find it as OP as heck.

I am adaptable to almost all classes and class change situations in WoW when I play a few hours of it. I'm sure I can get the hang of a MoP rogue.
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I have a finished enhance shaman right now. Easily CCed, easily kited, and easily focused. No survivability under pressure. If people just stand there and let me smack them down I can do damage, otherwise I am better as an offensive dispel all day.

In MoP, enhance gets a good fast heal (right now 3 sec cast time 200 hp heal doesn't work) AND they get instant Ghost Wolf baseline. Add to that a choice between 3 great defensive CDs @ the 15 point talent, they are going to have a helluva a good toolkit compared to now.

There is a difference between trash, Willix, than skilled classes.

That's like saying anything that isn't OP is trash.
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Nothing is inherently OP or skilled. Your character is a tool, it has a toolbox that comes with it, and skill is what you do with it. Right now rogues have a high skill cap because they have so many good tools. Right now Enhance has a low skill cap because it doesn't have nearly as many useful tools for combat as other classes.

In MoP, rogues are simply losing too many tools to continue to have a high skill cap, making them a poor choice.
 
willix said:
Nothing is inherently OP or skilled. Your character is a tool, it has a toolbox that comes with it, and skill is what you do with it.
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Any class will perform differently depending on player skill, but yes, some are inherently more OP than others.
 
willix said:
You would, especially if you have no clue what a skill cap is.
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You do realize you're like the only person in this bracket who thinks rogues have a "high skill cap" in cata right?

I am well aware of what a skill cap is, sir. Thank you.

When you're losing an argument it does well to insult the person you are having the debate with.
 
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