F2P Tournament: Predict how it will all go wrong.

[Izac]

http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/f43/f2p-tournament-coming-soon-56305/

Doomsday preppers prepare themselves for a variety of end-of-the-world scenarios. So what are some ways that this F2P Tournament might come to an end?

Doomsday Preppers - YouTube

 

[sevenslacks7]

What are some potential problems?

Not enough involvement.

Too many rules.

and

Inaccurate scoring.



I think the only rules that should be in place are: No outside buffs. And: F2P restrictions (Includes monks).


The big things with 'tournaments' like this are you need alot of involvement, ie it gets boring facing the same two teams over and over and over again.

And what I mean by inaccurate scoring, is that I am not sure how the scoring for this will work at all. It seems like the scoring (based on the other thread) is just, you play a game, you get a number of points based on the outcome of that game, as well as the number of players on each side. So is it inconceivable that the winner is just whoever queued the most? (There needs to be elo rating)


I think that people should just form teams (of the size discussed in the other thread), list their teams in the thread, and whenever one team runs into another, they print screen at the end with the outcome. (which will most likely happen on the weekend)

Now the difference between this and the method previously listed, is that the one before uses a little bit too much communication for each game, and it makes it far too time consuming. I don't see there being a end date for when people want to stop having competitive games... right? So I imagine (and hope) that this will be a ongoing thread/competition to get higher rated.

Some of that may be redundant or confusing, just my thoughts.

 

[Baconisbest]

Well, me and my friend thought of an idea to multibox, and have it so we basically played ourselves but on horde toons and say it was someone elses team, thats also a way on how someone could get stupid high rating, but only if they get into the same BG...

 

[Upswag]

One faction gets better PuGs. That means more than likely the winning is going to be Horde.

Luck plays too much of a role. I can see people lying and sync-q'ing with 24s to get easy win.

People will only queue with certain comps. Limit it to one? It's going to be rogue/hunter/prot warr/disc priest/rdruid or some minor variation of that for the winning team.

Limit it to two? 1 Hunter, 2 Rogues, 1 Prot Warrior, 1 healer. etc.

People will dodge the good teams to try to win. This happens at high ratings, it will definitely happen here. It's going to be really obvious who the stronger teams are and who the teams you have no chance of beating are. People will just dodge. I'd go so far as to send one person on my team in and wait out to see who the ten are before my whole team popped in. That way you could never tell if I was solo q'ing or what.

Just too many ways to cheat etc. I have a feeling I know which teams SHOULD win or SHOULD do the best, which means it should be kinda obvious whether this is working or not very quickly - but we'll see!

Participation will definitely be a struggle too. This bracket does not like to find out how not good they are (eg: See Arena Participation).

 

[Kincaide]

I could be wrong, but I sense a fair amount of sarcasm in the original post, and that troubles me. It troubles me because I think a lot of very legitimate concerns have been offered regarding the fairness of the tournament and the many ways it could be manipulated, and I feel like the response to these concerns as been to play them down or, in this case, laugh them off. I mean, it's your money (or whoseever is donating for the prize) but I think it would be more productive, and more reassuring, to fully address the concerns given and develop and explain solutions for those issues.

 

[Izac]

Alright, let's do some doomsday prepping. Anything highlight in green means I'd appreciate opinions from anyone who's reading this thread.

Not enough involvement.

The big things with 'tournaments' like this are you need alot of involvement, ie it gets boring facing the same two teams over and over and over again.

Yes yes this is possible. Any ideas to get more involvement?

The prizes will be there no matter how many people participate. Someone is getting a mount, dangit. And several people will be forever enshrined in the rankings thread as F2P High Warlord/Gladiator etc. even if the thread ends up on page 100 of the forum someday.

What are some potential problems?

Too many rules.

I think the only rules that should be in place are: No outside buffs. And: F2P restrictions (Includes monks).

That's how we feel as well. Those are basically the only rules we've come up with reallyl. In fact we took it a step further and said outside buffs are okay except for the 60 int buff that horde can get.

Are there any rules in particular that put you off?

Inaccurate scoring.

And what I mean by inaccurate scoring, is that I am not sure how the scoring for this will work at all.

Well, there is a points system, but the points you accumulate will be averaged by the number of games played to get a points-per-game score. How does that sound?

I think that people should just form teams (of the size discussed in the other thread), list their teams in the thread, and whenever one team runs into another, they print screen at the end with the outcome. (which will most likely happen on the weekend)

Now the difference between this and the method previously listed, is that the one before uses a little bit too much communication for each game, and it makes it far too time consuming. I don't see there being a end date for when people want to stop having competitive games... right? So I imagine (and hope) that this will be a ongoing thread/competition to get higher rated.

I actually think random matchups are more time-consuming when it comes to running with teams. You can go the whole night without facing another team.

We've brainstormed a few different ideas, BUT HERE'S WHAT WE MIGHT NEED TO DO GUYS:

We register every team that wants to be in the tournament, and depending on how many teams there are we say "each team needs to play each of the other teams x amount of times" (probably 2-3 times)

This would solve issues with dodging and with random match-ups being hard to plan for.

 

[Lil]

Comp:

max of 3 heals (anything more is just stupid)

max of 5 players (10v10 just wont happen)

max of 2 per class (none of this 2 bdruids 1 guardian 1 feral and 1 rdruid crap)

Rules:

1. no outside buffs

2. no cheats/glitches (anyone found wall glitching in a game will automatically be banned from tourney. Anyone found on a team that has someone else glitching will automatically not have that game be counted)

3. Any team with 5 people from one realm/5 p2ps*/suspected of having a CRZ premade of f2ps ALONG SIDE their own group while facing another group will have that game not be counted

4. Whoever is playing in the tourney has to give their name in a master thread saying they are participating. Dont have to name toons or name their group just make it so they are in. Comps/groups can be changed however the single person will keep their personal rating no matter of team.

5. SS has to be taken at the start of a bg when bg starts if there is 2 or more people on the other team that is known to be in the tourney (say me and izac are queuing and there is oldspike and upswag [just for example] on the other team on alts and we dont recognize them but they recognize us, they would take a ss at the start and if me and izac afk for any reason that game will still count ONLY if they win, if our team wins it wont hurt their rating and wont help our rating. This way dodging and afking to save ratings wont be a factor) and rule #3 isnt broken.

6. SS has to be taken after bg has ended if any groups faced each other to show caps/returns/p2ps

7. If anyone is suspicious of a team cheating in ANY way or breaking ANY rule they can PM izac or cheese and they will look into it. If the team is found guilty they are automatically kicked from the tourney on all characters of theirs.

*if the team with 5 p2ps wins the game isnt counted. If a team beats a team with 5 p2ps they get bonus points. If both teams have 5+ p2ps the game isnt counted

Scoring:

2v2 win +20 points
3v3 win +30 points
4v4 win +40 points
5v5 win +50 points

2v2 loss -10 points
3v3 loss -15 points
4v4 loss -20 points
5v5 loss -25 points

Caps: 2 points (anyone suspected of getting boosted by anyone will have all returns and caps removed that were completed prior)
Returns: 1 point (anyone suspected of getting boosted by anyone will have all returns and caps removed that were completed prior)

Differential of p2ps if you have more on your team (if you win):
1: -3 points
2: -5 points
3: -10 points
4: -15 points
5+: game not counted

Differential of p2ps if your opponents have more on their team (if you win):
1: +1 point
2: +3 points
3: +5 points
4: +10 points
5+: +25 points

Points are given out teamwide (except for caps/returns) however at the end of the season your personal points are divided by the number of games you've been in that's been counted (min of 10 bgs)

Prize:

1. (this is up to the donator of course) $25 limit for a TCG item or from the blizzard store for the top scorer.

My opinion. With these rules I feel there aren't very many ways to cheat, however still leaves the game open for fair fun play without restricting anything.

[MENTION=18283]Cheesetoast[/MENTION] what do you think about these rules?

 

[Quotes]

I think that people should just form teams (of the size discussed in the other thread), list their teams in the thread, and whenever one team runs into another, they print screen at the end with the outcome. (which will most likely happen on the weekend)

Pretty much my line of thought, start simple, add rules later. To avoid team grinds, if you submit more than two wins in row vs a team you can't get points off the same team until you win against another one.

 

[Quotes]

I think that people should just form teams (of the size discussed in the other thread), list their teams in the thread, and whenever one team runs into another, they print screen at the end with the outcome. (which will most likely happen on the weekend)

Pretty much my line of thought, start simple, add rules later. To avoid team grinds, if you submit more than two wins in row vs a team you can't get points off the same team until you win against another one.

 

[Poparms]

I think the team size should be set in stone probably a 3s comp or 2s comp so that more people can get partners and what not. Its super annoying trying to get everyone to log on in the same time to do a large group.

A problem i see is when people play all of their alts so they can enter the competition like 10 times.

 

[Izac]

Well, me and my friend thought of an idea to multibox, and have it so we basically played ourselves but on horde toons and say it was someone elses team, thats also a way on how someone could get stupid high rating, but only if they get into the same BG...

Thank you that's something to think about. There's a few ways we can handle that

One faction gets better PuGs. That means more than likely the winning is going to be Horde.

Luck plays too much of a role. I can see people lying and sync-q'ing with 24s to get easy win.

Hm yes yes, Pugs are meant to be part of the game. If you get a couple of pugs that look like they can FC, your team should focus on returning the flag. Or viceversa. It's about adapting.

But I really think adding a team of dedicated objective players to each side of the field bridges the gap by a lot. Pugs tend to follow coordinated players around. It's just that more often than not Horde have more coordinated players imo.

People will only queue with certain comps.

That will be part of the experiment as well. Since it's not a full premade I dont think comps will be as important and I really think teams with classes like locks/mages etc will be just as competitive. CC + heals helps reset fights so that it's not all about dmg. The big dpsers rule when it comes to solo-pugging but I think pugmades will be different. We will see.

People will dodge the good teams to try to win.

Yes that's possible. We have a few solutions for that. What I just posted regarding registering teams and requiring people to face each team might be the best solution.

 

[Izac]

I think it would be more productive, and more reassuring, to fully address the concerns given and develop and explain solutions for those issues.

Thank you Kincaide, you are right. I do intend to take people's concerns seriously. Just like to start off threads with something fun, kind of an icebreaker I guess

My opinion. With these rules I feel there aren't very many ways to cheat, however still leaves the game open for fair fun play without restricting anything

I like those rules. Especially the scoring for p2ps/24s. Think we might need to adjust the scoring to look like that

I think the team size should be set in stone probably a 3s comp or 2s comp so that more people can get partners and what not. Its super annoying trying to get everyone to log on in the same time to do a large group.

A problem i see is when people play all of their alts so they can enter the competition like 10 times.

This is something I was thinking about as well.

Do we want to limit the tourney to 2s/3s teams only?

• Easier to keep track of and register
• Easier to get more participation
• Easier to queue
• Increase the amount of teams

Also considering making wins/losses equal in value for each bracket (a 2v2 win would be worth just as much as a 3v3 win)

 

[Lil]

Do we want to limit the tourney to 2s/3s teams only?

no. Imho (if this is about pugging and about making competitive games) dont even make teams.

Ex: me, you, tk, bop, oldspike, kincaide and swags are the people in the tourney. We dont need teams one bit. If we are all pugging (or can even be grouped, still the same) and me you tk get in the same bg with swags bop and oldspike that will count as a 3v3. It doesn't need to be coordinated or premading or anything. If people in the tourney get in a game with another person in the tourney and there are 2 other people on the other team in it, it is counted as a match. We dont need any of this 2v2 crap or premades or even grouping (yes this is for you small realms out there <3 ). As long as ONE person knows the match is going on and knows there are atleast 3 other people in the bg (atleast 1 on your team and 2 other the other team so its at minimum a 2v2) that are in the tourney and takes the ss, it WILL be counted as a match. If everyone is on alts and no1 knows whos in the tourney and no1 takes a ss then it will be like the game never happened.

This way puggers can be involved as well as premaders and makes the chance of getting in actual games MUCH MUCH more likely and MUCH more random. It still allows premades to happen for like BWL vs AP 5v5 can still be counted however me (misha) kincaide (vash) vs bop (whatever realm) swags (AP) can still happen in completely random pugs as well, if someone knows we are all in the tourney. This way the toughest thing about getting matches to happen is knowing whos in the tourney and getting people to say they are in the tourney


Also I forgot to add I like your scoring for the 2v5 situations. If the 2 man team wins they get points for a 5v5 win and the 5 man gets the 5v5 loss. If the 5 man wins they get the points for the 2v2 situation and the 2v2 loses no points (this way if 2 people do pug into a match vs 5 people they wont be penalized if they lose). For 2v3/4 or 3v4/5 or 4v5 though, if the team with the disadvantage loses they will lose points based on their team number since a 1/2 person disadvantage isn't nearly as groundbreaking as a 3 person disadvantage imo

Also considering making wins/losses equal in value for each bracket (a 2v2 win would be worth just as much as a 3v3 win)

no. a 2v2 win has ALOT more luck involved then a 5v5 win. 8 random pugs are alot more random then 5 pugs. a 5v5 shows much more skill/strat/ACTUAL group effort then a 2v2, therefore a 5v5 should award more points.

Edit: I'm going to bed soon so ask me anymore questions quickly cuz I doubt when I wake up I'm gonna have this many good ideas. Ask me while I'm on a roll xD [MENTION=18283]Cheesetoast[/MENTION] these rules as well, you like or no?

 

[Srs]

I voted for the 4-capping thing because it seems promising, but only because there was not an Option 5:

The mothership from the cyclopian hunter-planet comes to Warsong Gulch to recall her wayward sons to fight a new battle for the very existence of their home-world against the tyranny of the shadow-priest overlords. The resulting crater from the blast-off forever changes the face of the gulch, making any ranked tournament play nigh impossible.

 

[Bop]

What always ends up ruining these things are that only the people who would consider themselves contenders to be the top in the bracket end up actually queueing.

It should just be a "Hurray, you decided to play! Your forwardness proves your worthiness in receiving a reward! Huzzah!" tournament.

Or if we could get TI on board with awarding Titles that actually reflected how well we did in this tournament. That would be positive.

 

[LennywBT]

Can you get armored bloodwing as a f2p ?!

 

[Izac]

no. Imho (if this is about pugging and about making competitive games) dont even make teams.

I like this. I like this a lot. We should find a way to make this style work.

One issue I see is with people AFKing at the start. The answer for that might be just to take a screenshot right at the beginning to catch all the names. Have it be minimum 2v2 like you said, and keep the old points system with 2v5s etc.

We can still leave options open for setting up premades as well.

I'm excited.

 

[Izac]

I voted for the 4-capping thing because it seems promising, but only because there was not an Option 5:

The mothership from the cyclopian hunter-planet comes to Warsong Gulch to recall her wayward sons to fight a new battle for the very existence of their home-world against the tyranny of the shadow-priest overlords. The resulting crater from the blast-off forever changes the face of the gulch, making any ranked tournament play nigh impossible.

I wanted to go with less-obvious possibilities. Everyone knows it's just a matter of time before that ^ happens

What always ends up ruining these things are that only the people who would consider themselves contenders to be the top in the bracket end up actually queueing.

Or if we could get TI on board with awarding Titles that actually reflected how well we did in this tournament. That would be positive.

Yes. Lil's idea for pugging and the fact that pugs play a role will hopefully give more people the chance to win.

And I did mention something about having TI titles like that. I need to PM a moderator cause that would be fun to have

Can you get armored bloodwing as a f2p ?!

Pretty sure. I really should test it but I don't see why we couldn't

 

[Lil]

We should find a way to make this style work.

Not sure what you would need to do? With what I'm saying you really don't need to do anything. There really isn't anything to do. The only job is for you to get everyone who wants to play in this tourney to sign up and give their acknowledgement they are playing to other players so they can keep an eye out for them. The rest is just simply getting 4 puggers in the same bg and someone taking a ss. If the ss is taken by one person the bgs counts, no matter if the other 3 wants it to or not. No dodging, no avoiding it. Heck it may even be smart for a few people to go under the radar with alts so they wont be noticed until they start submitting ss's.

One issue I see is with people AFKing at the start..

No need to fight this. If people want to afk before the bg starts that's their loss. They won't be playing much bgs if they do that since I have a feeling alot of puggers are gonna be in bgs constantly. However, a quick fix for this is to simply have a tally of how many times someone afks at the VERY start before the bg starts and if someone can catch them before they afk just submit a ss. Once that person gets 3 (or 5?) afks reported they get a -25 point deduction for dodging. Once they get to a set number (10?) they are booted from the tourney for trying to dodge and cheat.


Another thing is imo if I were to make an alt to avoid being noticed and go under the radar and I somehow win I feel that toon should get the prize. None of this multiple toons across multiple accounts crap and we get to pick and choose which one gets the code. Whichever character gets the highest rating at the end (lets say lil [which everyone knows] gets a 35 rating at the end but my alt tankhealdps [which no1 knows] gets a rating of 40, my alt has to receive the prize UNLESS lil is the second highest then I get to forfeit my alts prize and give it to my main. If someone else has a rating of 37 on their toon I have to claim the prize on my alt or else I don't receive it) gets the prize.

 

[Snowjobs]

Entire thing is just a hastle ...... Eh I'll settle for mediocrity and just premade when we have the ppl and arena when we don't