Low Level Problems + Solutions

[justgotagm]

Sup guys, some of you may know I quit WoW but i still check these forums after I check my Facebook everyday. I'll eventually start playing again and I am still very concerned about the state of imbalance in low level brackets.



Kore made the perfect solutions and I hope blizzard looks at his post if they have to look at anyones, but I figured I would type up everything that was on my mind. I may have similar things to Kore but I didn't really read or copy any of his stuff.



So I would love to know what you think about what I typed up.

Please do not insult me. Leave a friendly post on why I'm wrong and what you propose instead and why. Thanks



I posted this on a thread on battle net by Inkoban about low level toons.

Some things were directed at people on the thread or the first few lines were to make people keep reading and not bitch.



All of this is general ideas, problems, and solutions. If I had to go deeper into each thing I could.



"None of these are related to twinks.

These are issues for low level players in PVE and mostly PVP



Big Problems.



1.) BOA



2.) Damage is too high.



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good



4.) Talents + Damage (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)





Little Problems



1.) Out Zoning gathering skills



2.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA



3.) We need glyphs



4.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.





Basically EVERY problem at low levels is due to BOA gear.



Take away BOA gear and you have

- Way less steam rolling in PVP for more equal and fair game play

- A lot slower leveling process in PVE for more enjoyment of quests and zones

- You actually get gear that looks cool and unique

- Puts everyone on the same playing field whether they're new or old.





SOLUTIONS



- Reduce all BOA stats.



- Make damage in BG's cut by 30% or so? Once again it varies depending on other changes.



- Give all classes equal damage and healing.



- Make Resistance and Resilience scale properly.



- Instead of getting your talents for free you have to learn how to use it through a quest. For example you are a mage, you are teleported to a room with a boss and 2 NPC's. You must learn how to Frost Nova and Sheep against your foes. This makes learning your class more understandable but harder at the same time due to having to pass the "test". I understand you have to do it now but make it a challenge and if you dont learn how to do it right you dont get the talent.



- It's not my call on how you should change and balance talents. For all classes they need to learn their talents in a certain order. Basically I would make all healers have a big heal thats slow and expensive. A small heal thats fast and cheap. Have 1-2 special heals. (HoT, Multi heal, Shield, Bubble.) DPS need gap opener and closers. If one class can stun then a different class needs to have an ability to counter it.



- INCREASE health pools.



- Reduce the stats of BOA down to green item level. Buff blue items.



- Make glyphs at 15



- Make pvp trinket 2-3 minutes



This was typed out pretty quick and I probably missed some stuff but these are the biggest problems I see.



Once again dont say "Oh level to 85 blah blah blah you're not supposed to stay at 19 anyways." blizzard wouldn't have made a feature to turn off xp if they thought we were playing the game wrong. Thats the whole beauty! It's a game to play and have fun. I can have sitting in goldshire on a level 1 toon for hours! Who cares how we have our fun. Were not saying we want to stay at 19 either. We're saying we want leveling to 85 to be smoother, equal in fairness and difficulty, and most of all fun.



These are my biggest concerns. please refer to the twinkinfo page



http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/15-19-bracket/18287-how-balance-19s-final.html



for exactly how to balance low level pvp and each class broken down to pros and cons by Kore.





Thanks,

OG"







Bottom Line Issues that need fixing.

1.) Nerf BOA stats

2.) Nerf All Damage

3.) Nerf Resistance + Resilience

4.) Nerf Certain Classes or Talents (Hunter, Pally, Mage, Etc.) + Buff Others (All Shamans, All Warriors, Resto Druids, Warlocks, Etc.)

5.) Fix minor issues such as pvp trinkets, glyphs, professions,

 

[Bankbeauty]

- Take away all BOA gear. Instead implicate new badges. The badges are BOA. They give a 5% boost to XP gain for each one you have. You can have up to 4 badges. Each badge has an item type. (Cloth, leather, mail, plate). If you wear plate but use a cloth you gain 2.5% per badge. I just came up with this. Can be changed.

Please god. Please. Tell me you didn't really believe they would actually remove BoA?

 

[Mrcer]

Please god. Please. Tell me you didn't really believe they would actually remove BoA?

Sadly they will never take it away. But it would fix a lot of problems.

 

[Caulfield]

Yah players would fume if BoA was removed, instead, consider debuffing it imo. Also, "Reduce the stats to green item level. Buff blue items" . . . huh? I dont think green items should be nerfed at all, blue item should be buffed in certain cases, especially where a BoA piece of gear could go. I also think reducing the quest level requirement of some quests would be good too, rarely do you get quests in your log that are red now'days. Also by doing that, players can get gear that will compare to BoA. If the stockade quest was reduced to 17-18, non BoA players could pick up a Rifle Commander's Eyepatch - Item - World of Warcraft . And if the Blackfathom quest was also reduced, non BoA players could also pick up some nice gear that is on par with BoA gear.

 

[Bankbeauty]

Some blues should be improve to be equal to BoA, that way people without BoA = Happy, Those with BoA = Happy, but no longer have ''unfair'' advantage.

 

[Nohealsforju]

Some blues should be improve to be equal to BoA, that way people without BoA = Happy, Those with BoA = Happy, but no longer have ''unfair'' advantage.

Well blizzard nerfed all Blues(ie: Blackened Defias armor and other dungeon gear) with cata which was bad to begin with and they left BOAs unchanged... So that is why i do not see blizzard taking the time to change blues.

 

[soup is yume]

how about making pvp heirlooms that have a use. why even have pvp heirlooms if even twinks dont use them?

 

[Camo]

how about making pvp heirlooms that have a use. why even have pvp heirlooms if even twinks dont use them?

I don't what you're talking about.



Some of the pvp heirlooms are BiS for certain sets.

-The pvp trinket,

-the plate healing shoulders,

-grand staff of jordan,

-the cloth shoulders

-The boa gun

-The mail agility shoulders

 

[Nickolas]

They should increase quest gear to the same stats of boa.

But the boa will have the xp bonus.

 

[Nomohate]

Big Problems.



1.) BOA



Agree. BoA should be nerfed. Furthermore, the very idea of people using the very same gear items all the way through the leveling treadmill I'm sure has caused the original vanilla-game designers to /facepalm.



2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low.



Agree. I prefered the smaller burst of yester-year.



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good



No opinion on this.



4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)



Blizz ALWAYS meddles with talents and always will



5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high



No opinion on this. Most twinks don't care much about XP now that we can turn it off. At least we can leave the big city these days and explore the world. That was very risky pre xp-off. LOL



Little Problems



1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick



The leveling treadmill is a joke. I never even had a 60 in vanilla. I begrudgingly made a 60 in BC just to level some professions for my twinks. When it comes down to it, every level still has just a two inch health bar.



2.) Out Zoning gathering skills



??



3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA



Agree. Gone are the days when you had to plan your twink, sacrificing the acquisition of one piece of gear to obtain another. You had differences among the same class. Much more variety then. Also, the unique racial abilities continue to evaporate, expansion after expansion.



4.) We need glyphs



Agree. I loved my "dispel with heal." Blizz took away priest dispel and gave it to some hunter pet. LOL. Typical.



5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.



I disagree with this. Swap out one type of trinket while you wait for another to CD. Also, I never understood why humans got a free dispel ability.



Thoughtful post. Thanks.



-Nomo

 

[Waaag]

omg Nomo get out of my head. i have to agree with everything you said. smaller dps was much better. no time limit games where epic and often the flow would change so everyone had a good time.

 

[Bankbeauty]

I don't think the same way.

Big Problems.



1.) BOA



Agree. BoA should be nerfed. Furthermore, the very idea of people using the very same gear items all the way through the leveling treadmill I'm sure has caused the original vanilla-game designers to /facepalm.

So everyone using Serpent Shoulders was better?

Like I said previously, Blizz should just improve blue gear stats so they have stats like BoA and so we can make a choice.





2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low.



Agree. I prefered the smaller burst of yester-year.

I also enjoy less-bursty bracket/pvp type, but I have to say, some healing class are doing just extremely fine. This is not overall, some Dps class are just awful and some healing class are just way too overpower, I think it just need balance



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good

No opinion on this.

Resistance does scale too good, Resilience at level 14 and lower indeed is WAY TOO OVERPOWER, but, I think resilience is really interesting in the 15-19 bracket. You know the Resil on your PvP BoA come handy and I don't think it's game breaking. Also, I haven't seen any level 19 with Haliscan +15 Resil chest, so I guess it just don't worth it.



4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)

Blizz ALWAYS meddles with talents and always will

That.





5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high

No opinion on this. Most twinks don't care much about XP now that we can turn it off. At least we can leave the big city these days and explore the world. That was very risky pre xp-off. LOL

I don't see the point of this either. It's not any game-breaking to have more exp, I just don't get it.





Little Problems



1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick

The leveling treadmill is a joke. I never even had a 60 in vanilla. I begrudgingly made a 60 in BC just to level some professions for my twinks. When it comes down to it, every level still has just a two inch health bar.

Who cares? I mean, I'm pretty sure 95% want it to be quick, the rest are just whining about it because it's not like runescape?



2.) Out Zoning gathering skills

??

That.



3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA

Agree. Gone are the days when you had to plan your twink, sacrificing the acquisition of one piece of gear to obtain another. You had differences among the same class. Much more variety then. Also, the unique racial abilities continue to evaporate, expansion after expansion.

I always laugh at that. God are you really all just losing your mind or something? I'm sorry but we had like 3 Shoulder in BC: Serpent Shoulder (Every Dps class), Talbar Mantle (Every Caster class and FC/Stam whore), Random UGLY white shoulder with Naxx Enchant on it. Atleast now there's SEVERAL different shoulder.



4.) We need glyphs

Agree. I loved my "dispel with heal." Blizz took away priest dispel and gave it to some hunter pet. LOL. Typical.

No. It was too overpower in this bracket in my opinion and actually, the last thing I want is to gives more Opness to OP class.



5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.

I disagree with this. Swap out one type of trinket while you wait for another to CD. Also, I never understood why humans got a free dispel ability.

Go 70 if your not happy with insignia CD =)

[/I]

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Big Problems.



1.) BOA

I'm not opposed to boas as a principal, but i am opposed to the way that they confer a huge advantage to those that have them over those who do not have them. If the advantage was minimal then i would be fine with it, but its not, so im not.



2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low.

I very much agree that damage is too high, but heals are (on average) about right. I would say that pallies and priests need toning down to a degree and druids and shaman need a buff. If damage goes down and healing increased then you could quite easily end up with too much survivability in the bracket.



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good

I would argue that resistance is not too good, but instead that its a rediculous and uncounterable stat that has no place whatsoever in the bracket. Resilience is about fine in the 19 bracket, but could definately use tweaking at level 10



4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)

Indeed



5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high

Not so much a problem to me. If some players want to hit endgame asap thats fine by me, as long as it doesnt negatively affect other players. You're perfectly entitled to not use raf or boas and just log outside an inn instead.



Little Problems



1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick

I'm not too fussed. Im not a massive fan of questing.



2.) Out Zoning gathering skills

Yes, I agree that If I'm levelling a new main I would like my professions to be levelled at a similar rate to my character



3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA

Yeah, a bit of an issue for me. I hate the look of the druid BoAs, but tbh rogues in talbar mantle just looked wrong.



4.) We need glyphs

Major definately, minor? Sure why not. Prime? No, no way. No thank you.



5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.

Yes, yes indeed

 

[MrZinty]

Tbh everyone looked the same back in the day to a good twink. All rogues used roughly the same gear except you'de sometimes see blackout running around with talbar mantle, furbolg pouch etc just for the stam =P. I think that guy loves to mess about. But ye. fishing Hat= Sign of the twink.

 

[emetophilia]

.





"None of these are related to twinks.

These are issues for low level players in PVE and mostly PVP



Big Problems.



1.) BOA



2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low.



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good



4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)



5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high



Little Problems



1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick



2.) Out Zoning gathering skills



3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA



4.) We need glyphs



5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.







Thanks,

OG"

Hello there Justgotagm!

I would love some of my toughts on your suggestions and problems.



Your first stated problem is BoA's. I wouldent say that it's the BoA's that is the problem. I think it's the fact that you need a main to get them. Instead of removing them i would like to see them accessible to every player regardless of level. These items shouldent be easy to acces, ofcourse not. But you should, imo, be able to get them without having to farm lvl 85 instances.



The second problem you stated was that damage was to high and heals were to low. I agree to 100% with the damage part. But from what i've seen on my priest (and a bit on my holy paladin) the heals are pretty okay. In my opinion the heals scale pretty good with the current healthpool (around 1,2k - 2k). If blizzard would just concider to nerf all phsyical damage (which is the only damage i concider to be OP atmo) i think they could leave both the current healthpool and the current healing power.



The third statement about resistance and resiliance being scaling to well. Since i'm fairly new to the 19 bracket and the fact that i'm no theorycrafter i have no experiance in this. I just know that on my 39 BE rogue i resist A LOT.



The fourth about talents. I havent experianced this. I do miss the old talents but that basicly because all the new abilities (such as ShS) but they wont change just because we mix around the talents a bit.

I might be totally wrong about this and i would love to se some pictures of changes that would be good and such.



The fifth statement about gaining XP to quickly. This made me think you are joking or something. I cant possibly se how this would be a problem. When you reach 19, just HS back to your homecity and turn your exp off. There is no item that i know of/ that i can think of that requires your EXP to be on. PvP items might be hard to get if you play in a inactive bracket, but this can be easily be solved by leveling through PvP and getting the quest/instance items when you got your pvp items.



Moving over to the smaller problems.

Blizzard is trying to make us 85 quicker. Well this doesnt concern us twinks, (unless you want to level a main for BoA's, but then you would love this), since we can turn off our exp.



Out zoning gathering skills. Sorry i dont understand this since my english isnt that good. If you could elaborate this i would love to write a small comment.



Everyone looks identical due to the new BoAs. This isnt the cause of BoA's, BoAs just changed the "identical look" from Serpent shoulders/Talbar mantle to a vider variation of shoulders.



We need glyphs. We do? I mean we managed to play without for quite some while before they were introduced. I wouldent say that we wouldent benefit from having Glyphs, i just think that glyphs will help scertain classes do more DMG, which is the least thing we need atmo.



The final statement about reducing the CD on PvP trinket. Huh? I mean Humans are really good due to their 2-min trinket. But thats one of their benefits for being human, every race got their perks and disadvantages. If blizzard recued all pvp trinkets to 2-min it would take away the purpose of choosing Human. And what would they do with the human racial? Would they recude it to 1 min? Or make a completely new racial? I say keep the trinkets as they are. Knowing when to use your 5-min trinket is just another skill we need to master.



Please note that this is only my personal opinions and i'm not a theorycrafter in any way. cheers!

-Emeto

 

[Silinrul]

So what you are really saying is you want everything to be basically like it was pre-wrath. -.- Change is inevitable...move on. <3

 

[Kore nametooshort]

So what you are really saying is you want everything to be basically like it was pre-wrath. -.- Change is inevitable...move on. <3

Not at all, I'm happy for things to be different, however I am not happy for things to be completely messed up. To that extent, yes I would rather have prewrath than cata, but I would be thrilled if blizz balanced cata low level pvp.

 

[emetophilia]

Not at all, I'm happy for things to be different, however I am not happy for things to be completely messed up. To that extent, yes I would rather have prewrath than cata, but I would be thrilled if blizz balanced cata low level pvp.

I completely agree with this. I would love a working cata pvp system but untill then i will dream of prewrath PvP.

 

[Tinkerton]

Sup guys, some of you may know I quit WoW but i still check these forums

Sums me up, too.

"None of these are related to twinks.

These are issues for low level players in PVE and mostly PVP



Big Problems.



1.) BOA

Agree, they create too much of a difference between players than would have happened if they scaled them better and made them just a tool for faster XP.



They also enforce a singular play-style, which isn't IMO making a game like WoW reach more of its full potential.

2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low.

While I would agree that damage is too high compared with basic Health pools, most Heals seem to be pretty high as well, and eg Protadins are so nigh-indestructable it isn't even funny to play them anymore.



Basically, when I left WoW had become too ''all or nothing'', you're pretty much either dead/reeling on the brink, or close to full health. I didn't find that fun.

3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good

I think the problem is probably more that they 'introduce' items etc. with those Stats too early into the game, if you scale it to your average leveller (basically only a racial Resistance), the numbers are a lot less intimidating.



But certainly in 10-14 it's a problem.

4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)

Agree.



Especially pimping most classes up with unnecessary LoL skills instead of utility skills has been a major letdown.

5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high

They are rather high without them as well, impacting gear etc. acquisition for normal levellers in a serious way. This has been the case ever since Wrath.



The main reason you saw more Threads about this when Cata was released is that the replay value of Cata is extremely limited with all the linear Questing, and where before it was up to you wether you did all the Quests in a Zone (leading to 'outgreying' etc.), since Cata you are too often obligated to plow through a whole bunch of Quests,, just to open/reach the one you really want and heaven forbid you want to do a Dungeon or BG during this.



Yes there is the Xp_Lock but besides the general issue of faulty tuning, a regular player should not have to resort to 'Twink tricks', just to play the game with some measure of correct 'flow'.

Little Problems



1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick

The issue is IMO more that the '85' content trivializes all the other content, and that you're basically babbysitted on a rocket train to 85 - and then suddenly have the issue of Cata Instances not being the most PUG friendly.

2.) Out Zoning gathering skills

Personally I never minded going back to older zones but with the added XP I can see how this can be a problem.

3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA

Agree, sometimes I wonder wether Blizz is taking a piss at people by making the gear so horrid-looking.



Worst of all, you'll be staring at & wearing the same ugly stuff for 80-odd levels (no wonder they're Stained, tattered etc.), meaning that a sense of character growth is gone.



Also, while with the normal gear I know exactly where my toons have been & what they've done, and even most of the time how much i paid for a certain item with what money and how many times I had to kill a certain Boss to get it, with the Heirlooms I wouldn't for the life of me know in which dingy WotLK 'Heroic' I got it.



So yes, I agree BoA's lack 'personality' and make characters completely interchangeable, which I don't think is good for a MMORPG.

4.) We need glyphs

I'd like perky Minor Glyphs earlier but 'Need'...nah.

5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.

That's one way of putting ''too many loss of character control'' stuff going around. You could also just pop a pot

Basically EVERY problem at low levels is due to BOA gear.



Take away BOA gear and you have

- Way less steam rolling in PVP for more equal and fair game play

- A lot slower leveling process in PVE for more enjoyment of quests and zones

- You actually get gear that looks cool and unique

- Puts everyone on the same playing field whether they're new or old.

I wouldn't go so far as to say EVERY problem, but they certainly don't help with the issues already present.



I do agree that I'd prefer it if they reverted XP-rates to a more pleasant pace, without all the mandatory XP-boosts etc., and made the Heirlooms a flat-XP accellerator with a serious bonus for those people and times you really want to level ASAP e.g. a Shirt of Expediency or whatever.

 

[Ehawther]

I want to respond to these points from a PvP perspective. PvE situations like questing and dungeons are better than they have ever been for lower level characters. You could get really specific on some issues, but in general things are good for PvE.



Big Problems:

1.) BOA



These items are obtainable by all characters - regardless of having a main or not. Are you going to level through PvP or make a twink? Then you will be getting honor. Save up and buy some BoA's. You don't even have to "work hard" to get them, just play the game you like so much and you will get rewarded.



Caster weapons are currently conferring a stronger stat advantage then they should and their SP needs to be reduced. However, you can still get great gear that should be on par with BoA's through quests and dungeon loot. Some item changes could be made to offer a few more options for low level characters, and I would support this to see some different gearing options out there for different characters.



But taking away BoA's is not the solution you are thinking it's going to be. It will change things, but it wont fix people getting rolled in BGs. Because newer players are still going to get rolled by experienced players with the best blue gear, and certain classes are going to continue to dominate unless class-based and ability-based changes are made.



2.) Damage is too high. Heals are too low



Burst is quite high right now. Heals are a mixed bag. Changes that address how burst abilities like Ambush scale would be useful if they are done right. Taking away Ambush from Rogues is not going to fix things, but work could be done to lower damage in some spots.



Shaman heals at 19 need some love. Pally and Priest heals at 19 dominate things. Druids seem to be okay. All of this leads into addressing class and ability changes that Blizzard should address at lower levels.



3.) Resistance and Resilience scale too good



Meh. As a character, you aren't just being given resilience or resistance for free. You have to gear for it. And that is a valid choice, because you give up other stats in that exchange. Scaling could be addressed to balance things out, but it is not a game breaking issue right now.



4.) Talents (Learned for some classes too early, others too late.)



This is were a real evaluation should happen. By the end of the major PvP bracket breaks (19, 29, etc.) all classes should be relatively equal. If healers get a "big" heal in a certain bracket, then all healers should receive this same kind of benefit. Evaluating the balance (more correctly imbalance in the current game) between classes would go a long way to fixing some of the things wrong with low level PvP.





5.) XP gains with Rest + BOA + RaF are too high



PvE issue. Not sure why this is a "big problem." If you want to level up, do it. If you don't, turn xp off. Either way you can complete the zones you are questing in and enjoy the fact that your character is developing. You can get all the lore you want.





Little Problems

1.) Blizzard is trying to make us 85 too quick



Same as above. Turn xp off if you don't want to level up so quickly.



2.) Out Zoning gathering skills



You want to be able to level your professions to a very high skill level because you are maxed after a few levels in a zone? Sorry, again, I don't think this is a problem at all. Use your gathering skills to make money. Just because a herb or mine is grey doesn't mean it's worthless.



3.) Everyone looks identical now due to ugly BOA



Aesthetics are not a good basis to evaluate game design. You think BoA's are ugly. I think BoA's look sweet. Sorry, but this is a bad argument.



4.) We need glyphs



You get them. At 25, 50, and 75. Level up if they are that important to you. And if you want them in 19's then how does that help lower damage in a bracket that is already filled with a lot of burst damage by your own definition?



5.) PvP trinket CD's are too long.



2 Mins would be nice. But it's not necessary. You have to make a smart choice for when your PvP trinket should be used.