What We Left Behind

I remember the first time i saw the game after playing WC3 for so long, i was blown away by the idea that i could make one of the characters and explore the world with friends and everything that comes with it.

I had 23 days played by the time i hit 60. I farmed frost giants in southern Winterspring on my warlock for frost protection potion recepies that sold for 70-80g on ah from lvl 57 to 60. I had enough gold to get stuff for my epic lock mount shortly after, i felt like king when me and my friends took the boss down. There was no rush to get to the end game, we ran dungeons, bgs, farmed, organized city invasions, explored, there are so many memories and friends made along the way, those were the days... i miss being young and excited.

 
That video brought up a lot of mixed feelings. The sense of wonder for exploring such a vast world and vast interconnected systems lasted for years. I still think WoW does it better than any MMORPG I've seen or heard of. That remains the best part of WoW, and I consider it a tribute to WoW that twinking leverages those strengths beyond what the devs intended. When players find it worth their while to collaborate and take the game in unintended directions, you did a good job making a game.

However, WoW always did a terrible job at managing its complexity, either going too far or not far enough. Some of that is simply because managing complexity is hard. From balancing classes to integrating systems to helping direct the flow of player interest for the benefit of players and the game itself, it's just hard. But there's a difference between making mistakes and neglecting issues, and Blizzard neglected some issues for years and continues to neglect issues to this day, for the sake of simply adding more to the world.

Moreso than any MMORPG I've seen, WoW did a lot right. Twinks show how WoW can do even better for the benefit of everyone who plays WoW.
 
The sense of wonder for exploring such a vast world and vast interconnected systems lasted for years. I still think WoW does it better than any MMORPG I've seen or heard of.
I would counter to say that the sense of wonder is usually highest while you're a noob to the game. Discovering the world and its complexities is most rewarding when the entire setting is foreign.

Sadly: we're all way past that point in WoW, and our "discoveries" amount to a needle in a hay stack, a needle no one else was looking for. Our twinking discovering may mean a lot more to us than anything else in the game might mean to a leveler, but that's only because we're more likely to be stuck with results of that discovery.

However, in favor of your point: no one's doing the level of crazy shit in other games that we do in WoW. that kind of specific obscurity is usually reserved for single player games.
 
I would counter to say that the sense of wonder is usually highest while you're a noob to the game. Discovering the world and its complexities is most rewarding when the entire setting is foreign.
I will springboard off of this and say that while I think you're right (i enjoy exploring new settings in just about any game I pick up) I think it was more so with WoW because of the history of the IP

One of the things the video did a good job of was placing WoW in the context of Everquest and the RPGs that came before it. But I think he really missed an opportunity to talk about Warcraft, Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 as shaping the experience and wonder of the first years of WoW and how these later expansions seem to fall off because that history isnt there.

Orcs and Humans release in '94 (holy shit) and WoW in 2004. We had a decade of time talking about and learning about and fighting in Azeroth before we actually got to go to Azeroth. We got to go to the Dark Portal after hearing about for 10 years! We could go see Karazahn and Stormwind and visit the dwarves in Aerie Peak and see teldrassil etc etc etc

Much of my first years in WoW was like revisting an old favorite movie or book. "oh I remember that!" and "so thats where that happened!" Like, you can go visit the very spot where Grom slew Mannoroth. That was (and still is!) pretty damn cool. And Uthers tomb and Stratholme. You get the point.

It was very cool and wonderous to actually see all of the places that you had read about and fought over in the RTS games for a decade. Theres a vast history there. And the first 3 expansions of WoW were more-or-less about finishing that story, so everything had the gravitas of the past 10-15 years of story behind it.

Modern WoW (which I'll define here as post cata) doesnt really have that history. Theres a bit of the wonder in WOD *if* you played TBC but its not like we'd spent the 7 intervening years in Outland really learning the planet. Modern WoW is just shoehorning locations into plotlines that are shoehorned into lore in the service of providing new content.

I think WoW *could* maintain that sense of wonder if they had a stronger story and a stronger commitment to their world as a world and not just a vessel through which to serve progression. And I think that is really and truly what we left behind. The "world" of warcraft.

(see what i did there?)
 
I think they still have a chance to do that with Classic+, not only by releasing unreleased content (the ever-mentioned Dragon Isles or Emerald Dream) but also reimagining content that was in Warcraft franchise up to Frozen Throne. Vanilla is a very coherent game, and with TBC it feels like a divide of "this is the content we do" and "this is dead content". I think reimagining areas from Warcraft into Classic+, even if they were made in WoW before, could place them in that coherent world.

So yes, for example, you could sail to Northrend (A new Northrend) but it would still be level 60, you could get new materials and items but they would still make stuff for level 60, but you could just as well spend your time in Eastern Plaguelands and get valuable, useful stuff. Other niches, not strictly powercreep to the extreme.

And yes, new raids would be powercreep, but I still think it could be done in such a way where there is still reason to do the "original" content. Emerald Dream raid gives good stuff? Yeah, let's do it! But damn, Thunderfury is still BiS on one or two bosses. Damn, that one shoulder armor from AQ40 is still the best one for warlocks.

Make the world coherent again
 
It was very cool and wonderous to actually see all of the places that you had read about and fought over in the RTS games for a decade. Theres a vast history there. And the first 3 expansions of WoW were more-or-less about finishing that story, so everything had the gravitas of the past 10-15 years of story behind it.

While I can imagine how cool that would be, I think a pretty small subset of WoW players brought backstory knowledge. I never played any of the previous Warcraft games before I got into WoW in 2.3. With 10+ million subscribers at its peak, I figure a large proportion of players landed in WoW with the same impression -- the "good god, this place stretches on to forever" feeling of how truly big the world felt. That's why a video like this hits so hard in the feels:

(credit to whoever posted that here before)

40 minutes to traverse a fraction of the world? Mother of God, that's big. And old timers can tell where the runner was 80% of the time by the sound alone....that's a (for the time) immersive world.

But here's the thing about twinking...

Sadly: we're all way past that point in WoW, and our "discoveries" amount to a needle in a hay stack, a needle no one else was looking for. Our twinking discovering may mean a lot more to us than anything else in the game might mean to a leveler, but that's only because we're more likely to be stuck with results of that discovery.

...twinking encourages discovery of a lot of old content to get those needles in the haystacks. Sure, nobody cares about twink gear except twinks, but twink pursuits impact other areas of the game for the same reason that transmogs, battle pets, mounts, etc. encourage discovery of old content. The more brackets in which we play, the more those opportunities come to light. We all can wax poetic about the things we did over the years that we otherwise never would have even attempted, if it hadn't been for twinking. Every single expansion brought interesting changes to every bracket. Rather than go on about that, I'll take a moment to talk about the missed opportunities in Shadowlands in dead brackets.

Dismissing for a moment the critical need to nerf grandfathered riding, the 19 bracket would have allowed us to use our 20 gear unscaled. Between that and removing a bunch of abilities gained at level 20, I think the 19 bracket would have made for interesting, high-intensity PvP. If 29s had become a thing, most other classes would gain abilities to stand on better ground against hunters. Beyond Siege of Orgrimmar, 39s occasionally ran a couple of additional MoP raids to get BiS pieces, plus they soloed TBC heroic dungeons until gems got nerfed, and cherry-picked some TBC dungeon pieces. 49s did every last daggone quest Shadowlands had to offer to gain faction rep until rep gear got a level requirement, and even now, 49s would navigate a strange mix of Shadowlands plus all previous bracket content to get their gear.

While a lot of changes happened in Shadowlands compared to other expansions, each expansion still saw twinks making an impact in WoW thanks to our niche pursuits. For Shadowlands, I spent hours farming in areas I never saw before, across four different expansions. Maybe my long break skews my view, and for sure WoW doesn't bring me the initial awe that it used to, but I loved delving into the systemic idiosyncrasies of WoW all over again.

We left behind a lot of what WoW used to be, and some of that is a loss. But we also outgrew WoW as it was, and I'm glad WoW moved forward, warts and all. Ask me again when they release classic Wrath, and we'll see how I feel.
 
wow's lore had always been pulled out of the ass, starting w/ vanilla tho :NotLikeThis:
 
imo wow got heavily carried because of the RTS story/setting foundation it had

i think alot of people played founding of orgrimmar campaign and that kickstarted the curiosity about having RPG in the universe

vanilla,tbc wotlk had a huge nostalgia to it , characters,zones and references to the game we grew up on

overall the lore itself ingame wasnt that great and it didnt help that alot of events happened in the books, which i dont count as a "wow game" lore, simply because most players missed it

then we got cata with green jesus and laser beam
despite what people say mop was pretty good except for garrosh doing 180 because "stonetalon writers didnt know what the other writers plan with him in MoP" , but the side stories about klaxxi and mogu were quite nice
wod with genocidal dude becoming our fanboy after getting smacked hard and then screaming "draenor is free"

and then we got leejon which is basically just biggest fan pandering to recover from WoD subs loss
we basically got everything people whined about on forums since tbc

"demon hunters pls" "ashbringer pls" "doomhamer pls" "pls bring back illidan" "holy shit guys look its TBC 2.0" and whatever else im forgetting

now from my understanding we got Jailer who was apparently hinted all the way back , and he apparently planned everything
(actually deleted this part because i forgot sylvanas wasnt MC'd twice by jailer, it was just her EVIL soul being evil, still dislike the change of her character, i thought her internal monologues/struggles were kinda interesting in books)
and that LK (being his creation too?) didnt break the helm cuz bolvar was too badass and resisted the voices

but anyway my point is that the lore standalone wasnt that great , only difference is that imo the first 3 games got carried by the setup from RTS


lore aside, i think mmos went wrong when they started making them to appeal to the solo / i hate being social players

there was / is the mentality of "bring the payer, not class"
with which we got simplifying classes/making them all similar or same-y
removing stuff like profession buffs so everyone is on same field etc

wow wasnt the only one, guild wars franchise went from team/build mmorpg to solo player mmo where 80% of content is basically zerg events where you can be afk for the whole duration and then hit boss for 10sec at end to get same reward like everyone else

while also turning the "guilds" obsolete because you can be in 5 at same time, so the community meant even less

eve online also had many changes , but i mostly know about the 2016 era onwards
 
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Familiarity breeds contempt.
I remember the first time I went to Stormwind. I was with 3 rl friends who had invited me to play the game. I was in such awe at the music, the sheer size of the city, it just blew me away.
But like most things, u simply start to get used to it.
What I noticed after playing several years of end game, I started to lose the awe of the game and only wanted to get the best gear, weapons and for lack of a better word, didn’t stop to smell the roses.
Twinking gave me a new lease of life on the game. Because u could no longer fly, life felt a little slower and I started to notice the detail in the game I hadn’t seen before.
Like a bird in the upstairs wall in the Half Hill inn, just little details I paid no attention to previously. It’s not much, but little things like that still give me a bit of, wow, look at the detail they put into it. I’ve got a heap of screenshots of things like that, where I’m like, that’s really cool.

ps - do u think Blizz will send me a trophy for being a Vet for 10 years….:PepeLaughW: When I get to 10 years that is.
 
I still remember my first time experiencing wow, I went to my friends after school to check out this sick game he started playing. I just watched him doing a wsg in the 10-19 bracket I still remember him killing some random troll mage named fuzzybum. He convinced me that blizzard made random names for the opposing team and for some reason I believed him until I started playing in early tbc. SO my first experience with wow was the 10-19 bracket...me twinking was pre ordained.
 

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