TBC Classic 39 Rogue BIS (for arena, as Sub)

[Medan]

You will disagree with this gear build (Neck - I will explain)

https://seventyupgrades.com/set/5eCDyfgv86fwHaEJPRmZEh

(If you cant offord naxx enchant, get revelosh shoulders of the monkey 8agi19stam)

I include BIS cause that's what ppl google, everyone have preferences and if you are running a 2x dps combo you might want max dmg to burst in a short window for instance (or some combos might favor different talent trees). However the ppl that actually google this are looking for one good overall build and that's what this thread is for.


TL;DR stat weights str/ap: 1, agi 2.35, stam 2.4, (just higher then agi within reason), health 0.24, hitrating.. 5, expertize.. 5

- I will explain these stat weights and why stam naxx enchants below as well.


Why Scout's Medallion over Medal of Courage

First, many ppl consider ap=1, agi=2, stam =2. By that metric MoC is better, this paragraph is ment to highlight why 39 is not 60 and we should use different stat weights (but it might be confusing for some, be warned).

Sixtyupgrades is a fine source for stat weights at 60 if we only focus on damage:

Their default stat weights are: ap 1 (str 1.1 due to kings), agi 1.9, 1% crit 23

They dont have any value to dodge and armor from agility. Im also going to try and show you why even without calculating dodge/armor agility should be valued much higher at our lvl. First Ill show prof only dps is calculated in from agi:

A 60 (rogue) needs 29agi for 1% crit and then gets 29 ap as well.​

If we take 29x1.9 = 55.1 and remove ap 55.1-29= 26.1 and then remove crit 26.1-23=4 (these 4 points are rounding error or some kings inclution (kings is +10%, these points are 7.25%), its not taking the value of dodge and armor in the equation.​

If we set the same stat values at 39 without including dodge and armor from agi:

A 39 (rogue) needs about 17 agi for 1% crit and gets 17 ap as well.​

If we take 17x1.9 = 32.3 and remove ap 32.3-17=15.3 and then remove crit 15.3-23= -7.7 so we see its clearly different at 39. We want the number to be 0 if only counting damage, in order to do that we set a higher value to agility.​

17*x=32.3+7.7 (40)

17*x=40
----- ---
17 17​

X=2.35 This is how high agi should be valued compared to ap simply based on dps (if we use same metric as 60’s do to calculate their dps. 39 and 60 is not identical, but its something) And even then you ignore dodge and armor from agility. In the case of the neck you ignore the value of 1.26% dodge and 0.33% physical dmg reduction.​

This is why I think WSG neck is better. Exact stat weights are impossible to pinput, but above argument leads me to ap/str 1, agi MINIMUM 2.35, stam 2.4 (makes little difference here as well, just think stam is more valuable then agi in pvp. If you think stam is worth 1+1/3 above agi then both necks tie at these values (as well as Wing of whelp), but you still havent added dodge and armor value so ye, tough argument to make.



What about naxx enchant choice?


16 stam 100 armor

vs

26ap and 1% crit

(I will use crit rating because in tbc this means we get 1.676% crit from this enchant and not just 1%)


TL;DR

26ap and 1.676% crit is basically dps stats from 28 agility at 39. In this wall of text I will mainly use agility=stamina (though I think stam is worth more) in order to be able to compare the two, and see how much value I need to subtract from the above mentioned agility in order to see how much 26ap and 1.676% crit really is worth compared to 16 stam and 100 armor.​

Basically this is the bottom line:

If you think stam is at least = agi in value and also think 3%dodge is at least on pair with 1% crit you should pick stam enchant. If you are on the fence if 3% dodge is worth 1% crit you might wanna consider the armor gain as well. 2.37% physical reduction has value=You should take stam enchant.​

Lets start:
Using sixtyupgrades stat weights on ap and crit we get

26 + 1.676% crit = 26x1 + 1.676x23 (38.5) = 64.5​

Ap/crit naxx enchant for a 39 is super close to what you get from 28 agility (if we dont count dodge/armor). (17agi=0.98 ish crit, (0.98/17) x 28 = 1.614, 28 agi also obv gives 28 ap). 28 agi has a tiny bit less crit and a tiny bit more ap, to make things easy we just call it dps as from 28 agi.​

NOW THINGS GET THEORETICAL and this is where most ppl will vary in their choice. I almost CBA to even write this because Im not sure how many will follow.


We need to see how much value you would lose if you had 28agi and removed all the dodge and armor and then compare it to 16 stam and 100 armor.

Defensive stats from 28 agi is 3.3% dodge and 56 armor (about 0.85%), how big % of agi would you give that.​

If you are an ambush rogue you might say 0%, but this is an average build for tbc arenas, and there defence has value (again, for say rogue mage 2x dps team, you might have agi>stam and be full glass cannon, but this example is is average build)​

Lets examine dodge value from agility:

First we go to where we get more or less exactly 1% crit (17 agility).​

17 agility: 17 ap, 1% crit, 2% dodge, 0.5%physical reduction. In sixty upgrades 17 points would come from ap and 23 from cit, for a total of 40 points. 23/40 = 57.5% of the value is crit, 42,1% is from AP​

Then how much is dodge worth to crit, noone would take 1%dodge over 1% crit in our bracet. I could take 3% dodge over 1% crit, though, so lets say 3% dodge is not way worse then 1% crit, perhaps better, but for examples sake: on pair with 1% crit.

* If we do 4% dodge = 1% crit we have 19.95 (I think getting 4% dodge for 1% crit is very high, 3% might be low to some, but we do also get the armor and that should tip the scales enough to where 3 or 4% does not rly matter in the end. To illustrate: 5% crit from 5/5 malice or 20% dodge from 5/5 in x talent... 20% is insane, that would give us 50% to dodge/parry passively. For a normal arena build that this is, 4% dodge is IMO clearly better then 1% crit and we are aiming for equal to 1% crit
​

3% dodge is then 23 stat weight, we have 2% dodge.​

2/3 x 23 = 15.3 stat weights of dodge.​

If you remove 15.3 from the dps value from 17 agi (17+23=40) you get 24.7 (40-15.3). To see how much value you keep when taking away dodge you take 24.7/40=0.6175 =61.75%​

Earlier we saw that naxx ap+crit enchant was dps wise close to 28 agility. If we then take 28 agility x 0.6175 we are left with 28 agility minus the value of dodge = 17.29.​

Clearly 17.29 is higher then 16 and stam enchant gives 16 stam. However 2 things remain if u really wanna calculate value:


1- Is agility really = stam

Example:​

3111 HP and 226 agility​

Or​

2611 HP and 276 agility

(2611 is just on the low side for arena in my book, you get minus 50 ish stam if u have agility>stam and 2ap=1stam)
​

I'd rather have the 50 stam in the example over and therefore think stam should be valued above agility.



If you ignore armor value (dont think u should). Stam has to have 17.29/16 =8% higher value then agility in order for the enchants to tie (assuming 3% dodge=1% crit) IMO Stam is easily worth way more then 8% over agility in this build.

*I say above 4% dodge is worth way more then 1% crit in an average build, but for ppl wondering what 3.5% dodge for 1% crit would give:

With 3.5% dodge =1% crit that number would be 18.8/16=17.5%. So, ignoring armor, stam would have to be worth 17.5% more then agility. EASY in my book. If you think stam is worth only 1% more then agility then you basically think stam=agility. Most ppl favoring stam>agility prob think stam is 10% to 33% better (I was in 33% camp for a long time)
Just to really put the nail on this. Would you drop 1000 HP for 101 agility? (would leave you at about 2k HP) Would you use a neck enchant, in an average arena settup, with basically mongoose proc that every time it proc'ed you would lose 1199 HP? Heck no. (2x dps, perhaps, but again.. this is average arena build)​

2)What is the armor worth:

We need to subtract the value of armor from the 28 agility and add the 100 from stam enchant. (instead of subtracting on agility, we just buff the stam enchant by the reversed value) Basically this becomes 156 armor 2.37% physical reduction.​

I have no idea how much I should value this, but its actually quite a bit. Even if u have agility= stam this should tip the scales in favor of stam enchant. Using numbers from neck example (and these are the numbers Iv used consistantly) agility = 2.35. If agility = stam that means 10HP = 2.35 stat points. For this armor to tip the scale in favor of stam enchant it needs to be worth more then 1.29 stat points. 10/2.35 x 1.29 =5.49.

-If you dont think 2.37% physical reduction is worth 5 HP (0.5 stam) you are a moron.




Over to other things. Trying to predict what ppl might ask for:

TBC enchants require 35+ If an item has iLVL above 35, but req lvl under 35 then it can not have TBC enchants (so no unearthed bracers with tbc enchants).

Hit rating is very important. Surefooted gives 10 hit rating as well as snare resist and AB boots already have minor speed.
Baelog's Bow is available to alliance IN CLASSIC and never after classic (you can get a horde to sell it to you on neutral AH). Dont be a fool, get it, ally 19 twinks need horde only thrown daggers (throat piercers) in tbc as well so make a deal.

Poisons are important = fast offhand bis.

Moongoose > 20 agi offhand, but not calculated (be my guest)

17 expertise is very good, even though many targets cant dodge/parry in several situations (Id even use this helmet as backstab rogue)

Sub spec is very good overall talent tree for arena. Sap is a very good cc and improved stealth and improved sap helps you get it off. You have a rough time if enemy rogue has better stealth/detect then you. Preperation is very very strong, arena resets all CDs at start of game. 3 points in gouge is worth it (bandages are insane good++). Hemo is a good main attack and combopoint builder.

You can change weapons in arena, use many different weapons for poison swap and if you CBA doing that at least have Dazzling Longsword against rogues (fairyfire proc is quite high and prevents them from stealthing for like 30 sec unless they get dispelled) and one with weapon chain.

Ps, if you disagree go fuck yoursel.. no honestly tell me, Im open for a discussion (but not very active here).


Cya in arena
-Shaitaan

 

[Indexfinger]

You named after The Dark One? I agree that WSG neck > MoC for rogues and hunters.

 

[Medan]

You named after The Dark One? I agree that WSG neck > MoC for rogues and hunters.

Dark one from The Wheel of Time (learned later it means Devil in arabic, gotten a "few" whispers)

 

[Cloaxs]

Nice

 

[Indexfinger]

Thats whats up. Im reading it again now with the prequel which i had nvr read. Only made it to book 11 when i was young. On book 2 now.

 

[Snack]

Moongoose > 20 agi offhand, but not calculated (be my guest)

This probs wont be possible to calculate since it will be sooo dependent on when the proc happens

 

[Outofspace]

OH proc is crap. Take the 20 agi. Looks ok otherwise, super tanky obviously which is crucial for Arena but it's a bit thin on crit for me. I definitely favor Might over Fort for Naxx.

 

[Medan]

OH proc is crap. Take the 20 agi.

You need to back up your statement if you want it to be worth anything to anyone, especially when it goes directly against the norm.


We have low chance at hitting with offhand, yes. I use 15 agi now because crusader/LS is not worth it on offhand. Mongoose (120 agility and 2% (5% after tbc for 39) faster white hits for 15 sec), however, is a different animal entirely.

I back up 2x mongoose by 2 factors:

-It's what every rogue use for arena at 70 and we have only a little less hit then they do (they are on about 5% for yellow hitcap, we are on 2.85% with this build). If tbc wasn't theory crafted to the ground I would question this fact.​

-Another factor that should give mongoose additional value at 39 is the dps window it creates. Taking advantage of the proc at 70 for say a 5cp evis/rupture or vanish ambush/garrote can be good, but its a faar bigger deal at 39. One proc increases our agility more then 50%, two procs (mh+oh) more then 2x our agility. The kill window this creates should not be underestimated.
​

That being said, I like that you challenge the build; it could lead to new insight (but only if statements are backed up)

 

[Snack]

-It's what every rogue use for arena at 70 and we have only a little less hit then they do (they are on about 5% for yellow hitcap, we are on 2.85% with this build). If tbc wasn't theory crafted to the ground I would question this fact.

The yellow hitcap doesn't matter for OH does it tho, since you'll only use MH for yellow attacks. So Mongoose on MH makes a lot of sense since we're "close" to yellow hit cap, but for OH it's only white hit cap that matters, which should be 25% right?

 

[Medan]

The yellow hitcap doesn't matter for OH does it tho, since you'll only use MH for yellow attacks. So Mongoose on MH makes a lot of sense since we're "close" to yellow hit cap, but for OH it's only white hit cap that matters, which should be 25% right?

Yellow hit cap only matters for special attacks, yes, but hit chance is hit chance. I'm simply saying we have just as bad hit chance with offhand as 70 arena players and they still use mongoose. (they have 2.15% higher chance to hit with offhand, this is not a big number compared to offhands miss chance and should not be a deciding factor for swapping to 20agi)