Subterfuge Rogue

Discussion in 'Level 29 Twinking' started by ghank, Jan 24, 2014.

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  1. ghank

    ghank Member

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    I always kinda laughed at Rogues with the Subterfuge talent. Anytime I started taking damage and nobody was there, I reacted so it wasn't too big a deal. But I was looking at some of the top flag returning rogues like Lucieon! With 89k hks and 5538 flag returns. He's won 82% of his games. He's sub with subterfuge which got me thinking...

    So I tried out subterfuge with assassination. It sucked, but after switching back to sub, it was awesome. With 600ap, 40% crit, and double DS on my daggers, I can often kill the FC before I unstealth (which is 3 seconds). With shadowmeld, I can of course restealth right away, or just never be seen which is pretty funny. I didn't know this, but you can double ambush too since you are still stealthed. Just wait for 20 energy to regenerate and ambush again, then eviscerate with 4 points, or hemo once and hit it for 5. Often your victims don't do anything, other than die. Most aren't expecting it. Seems to work great if you have a geared rogue, not so much for f2p unless they have damage debuff stacked.

    With DS, dancing steel reportedly will double proc 90% of the time after the first ambush. That puts me around 900+ AP for the second ambush and evis. You can also sap for the 3 seconds which could be an interrupt if they try to heal, saving your kick. You can also mount up before the 3 seconds. As soon as you mount, stealth breaks. Ambush, ambush, evis, mount, and spilt!

    Anyways, it's another interesting way to play a rogue. Can't tell you how many flag recaptures I got yesterday, it was more than usual and I was soloing. Even with a few people hovering around the EFC. Downside is you walk slowly all the time and your opener isn't huge anymore.
     
  2. Honey Badger

    Honey Badger Grandfathered

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    No such thing as best in slot anymore, talents and spec are all based on playstyle. Plus all depends on you have different gear for soloing, repicking flag, efc with 10 stacks, depending on certain efcs dancing steel works, Ele force may work better ignoring armor. But let's face it certain classes don't take much skill or even killing a Jaja efc with 1100 hp.
     
  3. Drayner

    Drayner Guest

    He's averaging 3.3 returns a game and that is impressive, but subterfuge isn't necessary to drop most EFCs. I am a very average rogue that's fairly new to playing rogue and I average almost 2 returns a game using nightstalker. Not only does it allow me to get some huge opening ambushes that sometimes 1 shot the EFC, the 20% movement speed helps me to close on the EFC to sap or open depending on the situation.

    I have a set of gear with ele force, but most of my weapons have dancing steel. I prefer dancing steel, but like honeybager said, it's preference and playstyle.

    On the same subject, Lucieon... is he one of those rogues that sit in the flag room all day? I don't like doing that. I prefer to go out and try to separate their team some with some mid saps and gank a few that get left behind. Then I hover around mid waiting for the other team to pick up the flag. 90% of my returns are in the enemy base or in mid. I believe my return numbers would be 1.5x to 2x more if I did the hang around the FR all game thing.

    I am not poking holes in your new found playstyle/talent, but just offering a differing opinion.
     
  4. Cìren

    Cìren Member

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    I've done the math for all combinations of specs and talents and assassination/ shadow focus/ elemental force offers by far the strongest opener.
     
  5. Honey Badger

    Honey Badger Grandfathered

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    Id respectful disagree with the strongest opener statement. crit so 30%ish to36% is too low u have to hope/pray u crit for Ass. Spec ? It's not a forsure opener. I do agree that an opener on a warrior would get his attention.


    playstyle it boils down to. It's a rogue u could be miss 2-3 pieces of gear with thoses weapons n be effective as long as pieces allowed u to have 3% hit.

    /Agree to disagree
     
  6. Cìren

    Cìren Member

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    math don't lie
     
  7. Cheesetoast

    Cheesetoast Grandfathered

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    Untrue. You and your target are in combat after the first ambush
     
  8. OP
    ghank

    ghank Member

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    You might be right. I sapped somebody by accident. Maybe it was the healer nearby?
     
  9. Icy

    Icy Veteran

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    Subterfuge also bring a HUGE amount of survivability for rogue in this bracket, when you take a random aoe / bolt you're not dead, you can still flee for 3 seconds.
     
  10. l30t53dd6p

    l30t53dd6p Member

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    Nope he is not but just very actively effective killing efc's all over the map. Whenever im up against this rogue this is his main thing he does. A good wsg rogue for sure! :)
     
  11. inoobupro

    inoobupro Grandfathered

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    hey could someone do the math,
    which ones are the best for sub? I see 2x 15 agil for ambush and weapon switch to dancing steel.

    personally I got 2x dancing steel, 2x ele force, 2x 15 agil

    Just need the best weapon combinations to gank the @#$ out of darkspear alliance cocksuckers
     
  12. potsmoke

    potsmoke Grandfathered

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    im loving sub subterfuge dual DS
     
  13. LennywBT

    LennywBT SpeeDIO

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    Subtetly Subterfuge is way awesome.
    If you do some math on it you will get why.
    Lets start.
    If you have a troll character and your herbalism is 225 , you can use Trolls racial (Haste) and lifeblood directly when you use your first ambush. When you ambush the enemy you might get double Dancing steel effect , and FIND WEAKNESSS of rogue ignores 50% of his armor , means if his amor is 2k it will ignore 1k. So the second ambush will really be DEVASTATING ! 50% ignore + 140 agi (Dancing Steel) + haste(troll racial) + haste(Lifeblood) = Enemy Dead.
    And it could be better as an orc : 50% ignore + 140 agi (Dancing Steel) + Berserk(Orc Racial) + haste(Lifeblood) = Enemy Dead.

    AND THE BEST OF ALL THE TIMES.
    NIGHT ELVES.
    First ambush + Haste(Lifeblood) + 50% ignore + (Night elves got bouns agility , keep it in mind ) + Evasion (if enemy is a meele , so if he is a hunter he might not be able to put the mark on you since they just shoot now , they forget the mark because it will be automaticly placed on the enemy if you strike) + Ambush again , than directly when he dissengages you should stealth yourself upp and do the same all over again . (except Evasion) , Still this is a cool way to kill.
     
  14. Sammael

    Sammael Veteran

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    I fail to see the math. I have however, seen Ciren's math. What I didn't like about Ciren's suggested setup was the loss of stealth speed and DoT (mainly as an anti-rogue tool), but that wasn't her point. Her point was opening damage. I'll try out subterfuge, but think it adds more utility to the opener than damage.
     
  15. LennywBT

    LennywBT SpeeDIO

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    Use Thisle Tea. And you can have 3 ambushes :) !
     
  16. Drayner

    Drayner Guest

    I agree 100%. I don't want to lose the ability to follow an EFC, even a druid, waiting on him to get out of combat to sap for others to catch up. When I tried subterfuge, I was getting frustrated at not being able to get to the EFC fast enough.
     

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