EU+US State of the Twink Cup

Stabilt said:
the competetive scene has never been more alive than in wod lol?
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Maybe my memory is off. It could be. Before legion came out. It's been a long time since xp on/off was able to que together. So when only xpoff was implemented I remember that I never got que timers at all. Like ever unless people set up a time for it. It reminded me how the 60 bracket went. Maybe that was when there was a 15-19 20-24 day s.

Moocow
Aka Protrockin/Zorblast
 
There was great activity in WoD at times yes, competitively. There was a period where a q bug kinda killed it but other than that it popped nightly for hours. So it's wrong that it was dead in wod.

HOWEVER; early game twinks were much more prevalent and competitive. You would run into other premades in your own battle group even without scheduling, and many, many guilds fielded 10 mans on the PTR to play other battle groups. If everyone queued into everyone it would have been crazy. Probably ten times the 19 twinks then and more in every battle group than in total today. Saying wod was best all time means you weren't around then.
 
MYT said:
There was great activity in WoD at times yes, competitively. There was a period where a q bug kinda killed it but other than that it popped nightly for hours. So it's wrong that it was dead in wod.

HOWEVER; early game twinks were much more prevalent and competitive. You would run into other premades in your own battle group even without scheduling, and many, many guilds fielded 10 mans on the PTR to play other battle groups. If everyone queued into everyone it would have been crazy. Probably ten times the 19 twinks then and more in every battle group than in total today. Saying wod was best all time means you weren't around then.
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well im refering to the 5, atleast 4 1/2 tournaments that took place during wod, I wasnt really playing a lot of pugs due to time zones
 
Stabilt said:
well im refering to the 5, atleast 4 1/2 tournaments that took place during wod, I wasnt really playing a lot of pugs due to time zones
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Well there weren't really team game tournaments then for a variety of reasons. A) each battlegroup usually had an undisputed champ from a certain server and eventually the best of each battlegroup developed kind of a gravity such that others in the battlegroup rerolled there. The best teams played each other on the PTR, but B) games back then between great and fairly equal teams could take hours. There was no time limit and no stacks. C) the PTR was not a perfect solution to play other teams. It could be laggy (although most good games weren't that affected), could go offline for random periods of time, and could in theory have a change that affected gameplay although they didn't constantly rebalance back then like they do now (at least such that it affected twinking).
The organized premades between the best of various battlegroups were the equivalent of today's tournaments and were really big deals. Someone would frequently upload a fraps if they had a computer and connection that could handle it (computers were run by hamsters back then!).
There was a 1v1 tournament that was a lot of fun but that was manageable.
 
MYT said:
There was great activity in WoD at times yes, competitively. There was a period where a q bug kinda killed it but other than that it popped nightly for hours. So it's wrong that it was dead in wod.

HOWEVER; early game twinks were much more prevalent and competitive. You would run into other premades in your own battle group even without scheduling, and many, many guilds fielded 10 mans on the PTR to play other battle groups. If everyone queued into everyone it would have been crazy. Probably ten times the 19 twinks then and more in every battle group than in total today. Saying wod was best all time means you weren't around then.
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Yeah that's right, the cues were messed up.
 
@MYT please don't try and compare guild premades in bc/wotlk to Twink Cup

it's like comparing little league to professional leagues



compared to
for example


i can probably pull better examples but ye

yes they might have been just as relevant in their respective days but from a spectator point of view what would you rather see
 
So because the video quality was bad then because computers were slower that means it was little league?
It was far more competitive back then. Easily 10 times the twinks and everyone want to be best. Just because you weren't part of the elite scene doesn't make it any less true.
 
MYT said:
So because the video quality was bad then because computers were slower that means it was little league?
It was far more competitive back then. Easily 10 times the twinks and everyone want to be best. Just because you weren't part of the elite scene doesn't make it any less true.
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If you can't see the gameplay difference you're not worth listening or replying to.

Please enlighten me how it was far more competitive in an environment where there's no gain to winning except credibility.
And miss me with this lie about 10x more twinks, there's no evidence of this.

Yes I was part of multiple guild premades on EU side, so miss me with this looking down upon me thinking im just some nobody who didn't play TBC bashing your nostalgia.

Yes it was fun, it was hella fun.
Was it competitive? yes
Was it more competitive than Twink Cup or Wargames in Cata -> WoD? not even close.
 
Also worth adding the old game (which isn't terribly old - we went undefeated for 2 years and Pizza Hut wasn't even active on the ptr during that period as the ally guild on their same server was better) was quite skillful if you understand how the game was played back then. For example, oom was a very real thing back then. You couldn't spam 50 heals or more to get there like now. And further, teams like CL didn't need to make rules up to make themselves dominate. Those games were anything goes but exploits.
I like the game today - liked it even better in WoD and even better in vanilla/TBC. I think the spectator mod adds a lot even though though many of the commentators lack analytical capability and spew nonsense. I was responding to someone that said wod was the best competition in wow - not what streams the best. Obviously given technology advances including better internet and much faster machines video options are amazing now.
 
No evidence of 10 times the players? You mean other than the fact that wow itself was far, far larger and even more active then? Or the fact that orgrimar was 3+ times as crowded when it was just your own server as is it today with multiple ones? Or that q times were frequently shorter when you could only q into your own server than today when they've combined them all?
I don't know what to say about EU. In the US every single battle group had more twinks than there are in total today. And the gameplay was plenty difficult. Things like having a small mana pool add levels of complexity they're carebrared out today. The game is entirely carebeared down today, yet you think that a bunch of people standing in middle because the rules force you to are somehow better / more competitive? Give me a break!
 
MYT said:
yet you think that a bunch of people standing in middle because the rules force you to are somehow better / more competitive? Give me a break!
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You think that's a rule? no thats the meta, that's what games evolved into when people who werent clicking and DCing started playing.

There was 0 strats in tbc premades, quite evident in that old video i linked.

Yes I understand thats how a lot of people played back then, even at endgame.

However we were comparing competitiveness and you start bringing up video quality and population????

Just stop, you clearly never played in both scenes so comparing them is just you being biased to what you did play and clutching onto your nostalgia ego for nostalgia sakes.

Time's moved on, your view of the bracket is old and rose-tinted.

Twink Cup is the highest peak this bracket will ever see, that's the be all and end all.
 
First of all it's idiotic to say that there were zero strats back then. I played in those games - you didn't. The strats were far more advanced than today actually because the mid fight severely limits it....not to mention it's a short game. Games took hours before. Second , the midfight meta has developed because of the rules that support it. Turn the rules off tomorrow and allow people to use whatever classes they want and it goes away. How? Here's an example - people would load up on surv so both fc's would die. So teams would drop some survs to add CC to get their fc across while their survs would return. If both get across it's offense/defense. Hypothetical but don't give me that shit it's the meta. When there's no rules, whatever develops is the meta. When you create rules to protect a playstyle the people making the rules tend to be better at, it isn't a meta.
 
I clearly never played in both scenes? I'm not actually a has been but that's the worst somebody could call me because there's no dispute I was great. You on the other hand are a never been. So don't tell me I've clearly never played as I've played plenty at both beginning and end.
 
@Conq Imo if you're going to host a arena cup for $2k, should be held in a bracket where its alot more interesting. 19s, 20/29s are fun and nostalgic, but realistically there will be no hype for a tournament where there are virtually no cooldowns to be used. Level 70+ brackets would be a lot more fun to watch/play just because there is more buttons to press. Just my opinion.

I never was going to participate in the twink cup, I would've watched it, tbh I didn't even think it was going to happen. People asked me to join their team for the cup, and for some reason every single guild I was offered to join, disbanded, and people lost interest very very fast.

I've very much appreciated the amount of effort the xpoff/nwl team has put into all of this. I've not said anything but I've been a watcher/lurker since late cata. All of the friends I've made just from tournaments/wargames alone I can't thank you guys enough for. 2 of my best friends to this day (and many more great friends) I met from tournaments that the xpoff community does for everyone.

Whatever happens from now on, it's been a pleasure meeting/getting to know everyone and making a bunch of new homies :p

As @Allybeboba would say;
/Cheers
 
Iild said:
yes i called this happening, and after talking with you yesterday and then this video i'm glad it's not happening and i hope nothing ever happens for you. I told you the reason why it's happening and you didnt bring up any of my points when im 100% right.

you say this is all happening because new users arent feeling welcome in the competitive scene when it's been like this since the beginning of the bracket and more so when wargames got implemented, so why didn't the bracket die day1?

you wont find anyone here who plays competitively who didn't face toxicity as a new user in every online game in every setting, we all put up with it and thrived in it, what's changed?

nothing has changed, new users claiming toxicity putting them off is a cop out, they're just fed egos in their 5man premades vs levellers and when they hang in an equal playing field environment they find any excuse to never participate again.

don't welcome legion twinks if they're not willing to adapt to our already established wargame settings

i also pointed out how can they blame toxicity when they'll be forming their twink cup roster themselves so can exclude any toxic people out and have a friendly/guild team, you refused to answer that question.

you say 'we cant force new twinks to want to play 10v10 when they want to play 5mans in pugs instead' so why are you blaming old twinks who are toxic in wargames? you can't force us to be nice to people who struggle to press the 4 abilities they have at 19.


ask anyone from outside this community what they think of twinks, they'll say 'a bunch of low skilled noobs who camp graveyard at wsg at lvl 19'
they wont say 'a group of people who want competitive games but are toxic to new twinks'

it's legion twinks giving 19s a bad name, not the toxic players in the established community so miss me with this carebear shit

i've talked to numerous people who said if it wasnt for the toxicity on this forum or ingame they wouldnt have bothered to join competitively or try to better themselves as players.


this is a THEM issue not an US issue.

blame new users being too braindead to see the best part of the bracket not the 'toxic' players seeing new twinks' worth to the community.
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A perfect example of finger pointing if I ever saw one.


Featherfoot said:
It has always been like this yes, but so has the the turn around of new players being turned off and away from the twinking scene. The only thing that has changed is the drop in players and over all interest within the community so now we are seeing the effect now more so than ever from not welcoming in more noobies.

Ive flown under the radar for the most part but i have been around for a long time. Ive helped gear tons of 19s over the years and i can personally say the biggest issue when trying to have a nice functioning twink guild comes down to activity. So with that in mind let me give everyone here an example of how the general atmosphere in this bracket has hurt it more so than helped.

For the sake of referencing this scenario im about to play out, we can call it the "80/20 effect". and this isnt just a random scenario im imagining, this is how ive seen recruiting play out time and time again over the 10 years ive played.

So the 80/20 effect is, lets say i recruit 100 new players to make 19s... some will be old school players who havnt twinked in years and didnt even know there was a community, some are end game pvpers wanting to check out the lower lvl bracket, and some are new to pvp all together... you see it all, the composition doesnt really matter... So out of that 100, 80 will stop playing because they did not feel welcome, they got attacked for not making a good play or maybe just the lack of a play altogether. Or maybe they were just unlucky enough to bump into that random shit talker who whispers ppl for no good reason, we all know we have them here... So regardless of the actual played out instance... 80 will stop playing because they were given zero chances to learn and grow in the 19 bracket. So now, and rather quickly, im down to 20... most of these will stick around for 2-4 weeks.... some maybe a month or two, but sooner or later they will fade out because lack of activity... All 20 will never be online at the same time, they will pop in and out normally miss each other and soon get bored with the twink scene... That 20 we are missing out on is a direct result of the 80 we already lost... i used to always say you need activity to have activity, and without the 80 to fill in the roster, the 20 dont see anything going on to stick around for.

Like i said before, this issue of new players not feeling welcome and not staying in the bracket isnt new, its just being noticed more now since our own numbers are dropping and now we are trying to figure out how to fill the void, and tbh i think im being generous with the 80/20... its probably closer to 90/10 .... I bet we are chasing away close to 90% of people who are showing interest in twinking.

So I guess all im saying is give people a chance. if we dont give the people who want to check out twinking a chance we will be left with what we have now, levelers missing gear, active twinks not wanting to get smashed and shit talked on stream, and 2-3 hours set up for real IDs that fall apart in 15-30 min. As i mentioned in my earlier post... only the community can save the community, and as a community we need numbers to be our main focus for now then be willing to give chances. Constructive criticism not hostile attacks... get the quantity where it needs to be then help shape the quality.
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What most people don't realize is the 80/20 rule is real. It is called the Pareto Principle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
 
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