US Should the survival hunter ban be lifted?

what? its a team . nobody has an advantage over other people on a team because they do more damage/healing than other players on the team. thats like (i dont play sports so this might be completely off but u get my point) banning the quarter backs role in an american football game because they personally score the most points . at the end of the day everyone helps and wins . meters dont matter lol
 
Are you saying individual advantage has no impact on the team effort? The individual(s) with the OP specs certainly have an advantage over others on the team.
You make no sense at all. There will always be classes with an advantage over another and there is no way to go around that, but it's still all around teamplay and not 1v1's and both teams have their equal OP classes. It's the community that agrees on what should/shouldn't be banned so I don't see the problem since it's a community decision. Also you're not even taking part in any wargames so why is this any concern of you.
 
You make no sense at all. There will always be classes with an advantage over another and there is no way to go around that, but it's still all around teamplay and not 1v1's and both teams have their equal OP classes. It's the community that agrees on what should/shouldn't be banned so I don't see the problem since it's a community decision. Also you're not even taking part in any wargames so why is this any concern of you.

Always classes with a small advantage over others, which yes is expected and unavoidable - not specs like SV that put out 3, 4, 5x the dmg that other specs normally do.

It's like some of you are coming to defend this because you want to keep the advantage you have with the OP specs in the game.
 
Haven't read all these post. But I will give you my final answer if surv hunter should be allowed or not within the next few days of testing. Surv is strongest spec at 19 imo. Good meele msg, good range dmg with axe spam and pet, has a ability they can spam for snares, they have MS, they have charge... and they have a op trap. All this at 19 seems abit op lol. Considering what few abilitys other classes and specs have. But I will look into it this hunter nerf they did level them abit.
 
I don't see how there's anyone that can argue they SHOULD remain banned if they can't use throwing axes. It's a given they shouldn't be. Further, the meta is currently heavy ranged dps. This could open up making BM and War relevant again.

I'd go further and say that throwing axes shouldn't be banned either. A major problem with this bracket is that the players protect their midfight play style by making rules to favor it. Ferals were banned because your FC just standing behind your team would die. Rather than let the meta naturally evolve to adapt to that, you instead changed the rules to protect the meta.

I made the mistake of contributing $1,000 to the TC 2015 because I didn't yet realize how many manipulative DB's this bracket had changing the rules to protect the illusion their team is best. Pizza started and perfected this crap plenty of others have jumped on that bandwagon since. Pizza is a great Druid, but to think he didn't manipulate rules to ensure his team an advantage is sticking your head in the sand.

I strongly support removing the ban.
 
Haven't read all these post. But I will give you my final answer if surv hunter should be allowed or not within the next few days of testing. Surv is strongest spec at 19 imo. Good meele msg, good range dmg with axe spam and pet, has a ability they can spam for snares, they have MS, they have charge... and they have a op trap. All this at 19 seems abit op lol. Considering what few abilitys other classes and specs have. But I will look into it this hunter nerf they did level them abit.
I don't think it was so much a SV nerf was it? I thought they nerfed all PvP damage by 40%, which made healers stronger. I could be wrong though. Let us know what you find out.

Haven't really been able to play due to working crazy hours so I can't do it for myself. :(
 
I view something like survival the same way i view steroid usage in sports, sure we could lift the ban on steroids but would that be fair to ppl that dont want to juice?
 
A better analogy would be to say ban halfbacks because they're too powerful (not now but were in the past), even though every team could use them.
Or maybe we allow them but they aren't allow to spin.
Sounds like rules that douchebag owners that had strong teams but were worried about good halfbacks beating them would implement.
 
Even if we go by the logic of saying, since everyone now has increased HP, the damage from survival hunters seems more manageable, it still doesn't change the fact that their damage is legit INSANE compared to other classes. Sure, they don't have the spread pressure, and easy targeting of a boomkin, but they have crazy single-target pressure instead.

Now you argued solely for how games would fare in terms of the survival hunter being in mid. Even if healers do have more time to react now, I do feel like under coordinated circumstances, they will have the same effect. I.e. during hard swaps. I also think that survival hunter getting to pump damage into someone in mid is going to be huge in terms of landing kills overall. These are solely the damaging aspects.

Now we look at the toolkit overall, still with the assumption of survival hunter playing in mid. Aside from their insane damage, they also have harpoon, which is a 5-40 yard range. FUCKING. 40. ARE. YOU. JOKING. This means that no ranged class can actually max range them, since the casted spells with the longest range is also 40 yards. On top of that, the overall mechanic of that spell is so wonky that you harpoon pretty much up, down and through almost everything. Imagine if charge had the same pathing. Hot damn.
The overall wonkyness of the harpoon spell is less relevant in mid where the field is more of a flat landscape with no LoS. However, the sole range and the added root for a short duration of CC is super huge on its own.
Survival hunters, like any other hunter, also has a pet which has the possibility of having roar of sacrifice, given that the pet is specced into cunning. Also, 40 yard range. This is important to note to understand the overall utility. Because, not only will you not out-range your pet by harpooning on to someone (given that your pet is near you as you harpoon), you also have a wide range of opportunity to RoS a team member. Now, with a wide range of pet choices, some more utility is also added depending on what pet you choose. For instance, you have the possibility to get a pet which can cause mortal wounds. Reducing healing effects by 25%. That. Is. Huge. Survival hunter also has wing clip, which reduces the targets movement speed by 50% for 15 seconds. Slows at 19 means A LOT. Some classes sacrifices a lot of resources into having someone slowed, and some for a duration that is not even close to that of 15 seconds. Next up is survivalist. You AND your pet receives 15% health over 10 seconds after landing a kill. With the current health pools, that is a lot of healing, granted you get a kill. Some classes barely out damage that heal alone (kek rogues, rip). Another utility that is important to mention is track humanoid. Hunters can easily track people's movements around the map, looking at who's about break off etc. etc. without targeting them. This gives them the upper hand in being able to read most situations simply because of the easy-to-get information on what's currently going on around the map. And last, but not least, freezing trap. A class that already excels at so many things gets an 8 second cc ladies and gents. "But mr. they have to land it, it's a skill shot". Harpoon into trap, or literally just walk on top of someone and throw the trap at your feet. This will guarantee that your trap lands.... And if you're THAT bad, add in a wingclip before throwing the trap, and if you can't land that, well, then you should maybe look into playing mine craft or something, I don't even know. Point being, you. have. a. lot. of. shit. compared. to. a. lot. of. classes. Hell, you can even place it at highly used routes, i.e. the opening of tunnel and just let the trap chill there if that's your thing. It'll get the EFC out of stealth once triggered, and a lingering class or whoever happens to be near can take it from there yada yada.

Now to the real part where Survival hunters excel. You turn off your tunnel vision for 10 seconds to cut off a healer/mage/other hunter (let's just pretend that hunter isn't a survival hunter)/any other important class who is getting into position in order to meet/escort/peel for EFC. You are now in isolated situations of 1v1, 2v2, and at max, 3v3. This is where survival hunters become INSANELY strong. Simply because there is near no one with the same toolkit in terms of damage AND utility, except for boomkin, which in terms, both classes have different trade-offs. Your ability to dish out more damage than literally everyone else alongside with aforementioned toolkit, should give you the upper hand in that 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 situation 10/10 times (taking into consideration you aren't running around with 100 health as the situation occurs). Aside from all these situations, survival hunters also excel at cutting EFC's. Remember when I mentioned the wonkyness of the harpoon spell? Yeah, this is where it gets really fucked. I have literally been harpooned from Africa, where the hunter flew under the fence at ally ramp, but also on top of horde GY / horde ramp. The spell is absolutely broken and doesn't seem to follow the same ruling as other gap closers for some reason (i.e. warrior charge).

So.... You are basically looking at a class with INSANE damage, A LOT of utility and a broken gap closer. There is no other class that really compares at the moment. Literally. Closest is being a boomkin, which will exceed at other things, but at the end of the day won't outperform the survival hunter in the role that the hunter is supposed to play.

Coming back to the argument of survival hunters now being healable due to the increase of overall health in the bracket. The increase in health also in terms mean that in situations where survival hunters just gets to dish out damage, whether it being 1v1 or in mid is irrelevant, because they get to ramp up almost exponentially compared to other classes. This is due survival hunters broken damage compared to other classes. The classes that could somewhat manage survival hunters used the advantage of low health pools. Now when that is gone, survival hunters will just keep pulling ahead given the extra time frame that comes with the increased health.

So...

If feral druids were banned in WoD, I don't see why survival hunters shouldn't be in Legion.

Summarizing:
-incomparable single target damage.
-Roar of Sacrifice (40 yard range).
-Mortal Wounds.
-Harpoon (40 yard gap closer with root, and an overall wonky mechanic in terms of ignoring terrain).
-Survivalist (15% health over 10 seconds to both you and your pet).
-Track humanoid.
-Wing clip (50% slow for 15 seconds).
-Freezing trap (8 second CC).

-Outmatched in isolated situations.
-can take upon most dps-related roles and do them a million times better than any other class (i.e. mid / linger / offence / defence).

Now, I didn't even go to mention how ridiculously easy it is to play this class to the point of simply just being effective. Of course "mastering" (I laughed and puked a little at the same time there) the class is going to be different. You will see differences between an average, and a really good hunter. But the range from "average" to "good" is basically non-existent.

If you allow this class, which can literally be played by someone on life support playing on a tablet, then something is straight up wrong. Especially given that feral was banned in WoD. Also, if you're reading this and you play a survival hunter, I hope someone unhooks your life support.

I wrote a bible, I know.

TL;DR. No, don't allow survival hunters, ban them. Read the bible above to see my points on why I think so.
 
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because its not a crutch if both teams have it, its not that hard to understand

That same argument would go towards ferals in WoD, no? If one team had a feral, then the other team should also just get a feral, no? That is the exact same argument that you just used.

The thing is, evening out the teams doesn't fix the "broken" aspect.
 
Even if we go by the logic of saying, since everyone now has increased HP, the damage from survival hunters seems more manageable, it still doesn't change the fact that their damage is legit INSANE compared to other classes. Sure, they don't have the spread pressure, and easy targeting of a boomkin, but they have crazy single-target pressure instead.

Now you argued solely for how games would fare in terms of the survival hunter being in mid. Even if healers do have more time to react now, I do feel like under coordinated circumstances, they will have the same effect. I.e. during hard swaps. I also think that survival hunter getting to pump damage into someone in mid is going to be huge in terms of landing kills overall. These are solely the damaging aspects.

Now we look at the toolkit overall, still with the assumption of survival hunter playing in mid. Aside from their insane damage, they also have harpoon, which is a 5-40 yard range. trucking. 40. ARE. YOU. JOKING. This means that no ranged class can actually max range them, since the casted spells with the longest range is also 40 yards. On top of that, the overall mechanic of that spell is so wonky that you harpoon pretty much up, down and through almost everything. Imagine if charge had the same pathing. Hot damn.
The overall wonkyness of the harpoon spell is less relevant in mid where the field is more of a flat landscape with no LoS. However, the sole range and the added root for a short duration of CC is super huge on its own.
Survival hunters, like any other hunter, also has a pet which has the possibility of having roar of sacrifice, given that the pet is specced into cunning. Also, 40 yard range. This is important to note to understand the overall utility. Because, not only will you not out-range your pet by harpooning on to someone (given that your pet is near you as you harpoon), you also have a wide range of opportunity to RoS a team member. Now, with a wide range of pet choices, some more utility is also added depending on what pet you choose. For instance, you have the possibility to get a pet which can cause mortal wounds. Reducing healing effects by 25%. That. Is. Huge. Survival hunter also has wing clip, which reduces the targets movement speed by 50% for 15 seconds. Slows at 19 means A LOT. Some classes sacrifices a lot of resources into having someone slowed, and some for a duration that is not even close to that of 15 seconds. Next up is survivalist. You AND your pet receives 15% health over 10 seconds after landing a kill. With the current health pools, that is a lot of healing, granted you get a kill. Some classes barely out damage that heal alone (kek rogues, rip). Another utility that is important to mention is track humanoid. Hunters can easily track people's movements around the map, looking at who's about break off etc. etc. without targeting them. This gives them the upper hand in being able to read most situations simply because of the easy-to-get information on what's currently going on around the map. And last, but not least, freezing trap. A class that already excels at so many things gets an 8 second cc ladies and gents. "But mr. they have to land it, it's a skill shot". Harpoon into trap, or literally just walk on top of someone and throw the trap at your feet. This will guarantee that your trap lands.... And if you're THAT bad, add in a wingclip before throwing the trap, and if you can't land that, well, then you should maybe look into playing mine craft or something, I don't even know. Point being, you. have. a. lot. of. shit. compared. to. a. lot. of. classes. Hell, you can even place it at highly used routes, i.e. the opening of tunnel and just let the trap chill there if that's your thing. It'll get the EFC out of stealth once triggered, and a lingering class or whoever happens to be near can take it from there yada yada.

Now to the real part where Survival hunters excel. You turn off your tunnel vision for 10 seconds to cut off a healer/mage/other hunter (let's just pretend that hunter isn't a survival hunter)/any other important class who is getting into position in order to meet/escort/peel for EFC. You are now in isolated situations of 1v1, 2v2, and at max, 3v3. This is where survival hunters become INSANELY strong. Simply because there is near no one with the same toolkit in terms of damage AND utility, except for boomkin, which in terms, both classes have different trade-offs. Your ability to dish out more damage than literally everyone else alongside with aforementioned toolkit, should give you the upper hand in that 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 situation 10/10 times (taking into consideration you aren't running around with 100 health as the situation occurs). Aside from all these situations, survival hunters also excel at cutting EFC's. Remember when I mentioned the wonkyness of the harpoon spell? Yeah, this is where it gets really fucked. I have literally been harpooned from Africa, where the hunter flew under the fence at ally ramp, but also on top of horde GY / horde ramp. The spell is absolutely broken and doesn't seem to follow the same ruling as other gap closers for some reason (i.e. warrior charge).

So.... You are basically looking at a class with INSANE damage, A LOT of utility and a broken gap closer. There is no other class that really compares at the moment. Literally. Closest is being a boomkin, which will exceed at other things, but at the end of the day won't outperform the survival hunter in the role that the hunter is supposed to play.

Coming back to the argument of survival hunters now being healable due to the increase of overall health in the bracket. The increase in health also in terms mean that in situations where survival hunters just gets to dish out damage, whether it being 1v1 or in mid is irrelevant, because they get to ramp up almost exponentially compared to other classes. This is due survival hunters broken damage compared to other classes. The classes that could somewhat manage survival hunters used the advantage of low health pools. Now when that is gone, survival hunters will just keep pulling ahead given the extra time frame that comes with the increased health.

So...

If feral druids were banned in WoD, I don't see why survival hunters shouldn't be in Legion.

Summarizing:
-incomparable single target damage.
-Roar of Sacrifice (40 yard range).
-Mortal Wounds.
-Harpoon (40 yard gap closer with root, and an overall wonky mechanic in terms of ignoring terrain).
-Survivalist (15% health over 10 seconds to both you and your pet).
-Track humanoid.
-Wing clip (50% slow for 15 seconds).
-Freezing trap (8 second CC).

-Outmatched in isolated situations.
-can take upon most dps-related roles and do them a million times better than any other class (i.e. mid / linger / offence / defence).

Now, I didn't even go to mention how ridiculously easy it is to play this class to the point of simply just being effective. Of course "mastering" (I laughed and puked a little at the same time there) the class is going to be different. You will see differences between an average, and a really good hunter. But the range from "average" to "good" is basically non-existent.

If you allow this class, which can literally be played by someone on life support playing on a tablet, then something is straight up wrong. Especially given that feral was banned in WoD. Also, if you're reading this and you play a survival hunter, I hope someone unhooks your life support.

I wrote a bible, I know.

TL;DR. No, don't allow survival hunters, ban them. Read the bible above to see my points on why I think so.
Wow lol
 
Even if we go by the logic of saying, since everyone now has increased HP, the damage from survival hunters seems more manageable, it still doesn't change the fact that their damage is legit INSANE compared to other classes. Sure, they don't have the spread pressure, and easy targeting of a boomkin, but they have crazy single-target pressure instead.

Now you argued solely for how games would fare in terms of the survival hunter being in mid. Even if healers do have more time to react now, I do feel like under coordinated circumstances, they will have the same effect. I.e. during hard swaps. I also think that survival hunter getting to pump damage into someone in mid is going to be huge in terms of landing kills overall. These are solely the damaging aspects.

Now we look at the toolkit overall, still with the assumption of survival hunter playing in mid. Aside from their insane damage, they also have harpoon, which is a 5-40 yard range. trucking. 40. ARE. YOU. JOKING. This means that no ranged class can actually max range them, since the casted spells with the longest range is also 40 yards. On top of that, the overall mechanic of that spell is so wonky that you harpoon pretty much up, down and through almost everything. Imagine if charge had the same pathing. Hot damn.
The overall wonkyness of the harpoon spell is less relevant in mid where the field is more of a flat landscape with no LoS. However, the sole range and the added root for a short duration of CC is super huge on its own.
Survival hunters, like any other hunter, also has a pet which has the possibility of having roar of sacrifice, given that the pet is specced into cunning. Also, 40 yard range. This is important to note to understand the overall utility. Because, not only will you not out-range your pet by harpooning on to someone (given that your pet is near you as you harpoon), you also have a wide range of opportunity to RoS a team member. Now, with a wide range of pet choices, some more utility is also added depending on what pet you choose. For instance, you have the possibility to get a pet which can cause mortal wounds. Reducing healing effects by 25%. That. Is. Huge. Survival hunter also has wing clip, which reduces the targets movement speed by 50% for 15 seconds. Slows at 19 means A LOT. Some classes sacrifices a lot of resources into having someone slowed, and some for a duration that is not even close to that of 15 seconds. Next up is survivalist. You AND your pet receives 15% health over 10 seconds after landing a kill. With the current health pools, that is a lot of healing, granted you get a kill. Some classes barely out damage that heal alone (kek rogues, rip). Another utility that is important to mention is track humanoid. Hunters can easily track people's movements around the map, looking at who's about break off etc. etc. without targeting them. This gives them the upper hand in being able to read most situations simply because of the easy-to-get information on what's currently going on around the map. And last, but not least, freezing trap. A class that already excels at so many things gets an 8 second cc ladies and gents. "But mr. they have to land it, it's a skill shot". Harpoon into trap, or literally just walk on top of someone and throw the trap at your feet. This will guarantee that your trap lands.... And if you're THAT bad, add in a wingclip before throwing the trap, and if you can't land that, well, then you should maybe look into playing mine craft or something, I don't even know. Point being, you. have. a. lot. of. shit. compared. to. a. lot. of. classes. Hell, you can even place it at highly used routes, i.e. the opening of tunnel and just let the trap chill there if that's your thing. It'll get the EFC out of stealth once triggered, and a lingering class or whoever happens to be near can take it from there yada yada.

Now to the real part where Survival hunters excel. You turn off your tunnel vision for 10 seconds to cut off a healer/mage/other hunter (let's just pretend that hunter isn't a survival hunter)/any other important class who is getting into position in order to meet/escort/peel for EFC. You are now in isolated situations of 1v1, 2v2, and at max, 3v3. This is where survival hunters become INSANELY strong. Simply because there is near no one with the same toolkit in terms of damage AND utility, except for boomkin, which in terms, both classes have different trade-offs. Your ability to dish out more damage than literally everyone else alongside with aforementioned toolkit, should give you the upper hand in that 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 situation 10/10 times (taking into consideration you aren't running around with 100 health as the situation occurs). Aside from all these situations, survival hunters also excel at cutting EFC's. Remember when I mentioned the wonkyness of the harpoon spell? Yeah, this is where it gets really fucked. I have literally been harpooned from Africa, where the hunter flew under the fence at ally ramp, but also on top of horde GY / horde ramp. The spell is absolutely broken and doesn't seem to follow the same ruling as other gap closers for some reason (i.e. warrior charge).

So.... You are basically looking at a class with INSANE damage, A LOT of utility and a broken gap closer. There is no other class that really compares at the moment. Literally. Closest is being a boomkin, which will exceed at other things, but at the end of the day won't outperform the survival hunter in the role that the hunter is supposed to play.

Coming back to the argument of survival hunters now being healable due to the increase of overall health in the bracket. The increase in health also in terms mean that in situations where survival hunters just gets to dish out damage, whether it being 1v1 or in mid is irrelevant, because they get to ramp up almost exponentially compared to other classes. This is due survival hunters broken damage compared to other classes. The classes that could somewhat manage survival hunters used the advantage of low health pools. Now when that is gone, survival hunters will just keep pulling ahead given the extra time frame that comes with the increased health.

So...

If feral druids were banned in WoD, I don't see why survival hunters shouldn't be in Legion.

Summarizing:
-incomparable single target damage.
-Roar of Sacrifice (40 yard range).
-Mortal Wounds.
-Harpoon (40 yard gap closer with root, and an overall wonky mechanic in terms of ignoring terrain).
-Survivalist (15% health over 10 seconds to both you and your pet).
-Track humanoid.
-Wing clip (50% slow for 15 seconds).
-Freezing trap (8 second CC).

-Outmatched in isolated situations.
-can take upon most dps-related roles and do them a million times better than any other class (i.e. mid / linger / offence / defence).

Now, I didn't even go to mention how ridiculously easy it is to play this class to the point of simply just being effective. Of course "mastering" (I laughed and puked a little at the same time there) the class is going to be different. You will see differences between an average, and a really good hunter. But the range from "average" to "good" is basically non-existent.

If you allow this class, which can literally be played by someone on life support playing on a tablet, then something is straight up wrong. Especially given that feral was banned in WoD. Also, if you're reading this and you play a survival hunter, I hope someone unhooks your life support.

I wrote a bible, I know.

TL;DR. No, don't allow survival hunters, ban them. Read the bible above to see my points on why I think so.
When is your book coming out? lol
 
Boomkin is miles apart from survival in terms of opness, ppl compare the damage but can a boomkin flanking strike/axes x 2 type damage to open? No it cant, its an absurd comparison,.........thats the main problem with survival (well one of the main problems) they get insane damage with no build up required or resource management needed #bansurvival


edit - sure boomkin can spread dots/pressure multiple targets but with the nerf to sunfire/moonfire damage this seems less of an issue and they seem more of a single target type class with great mobility and ability to swap targets very well
 
That same argument would go towards ferals in WoD, no? If one team had a feral, then the other team should also just get a feral, no? That is the exact same argument that you just used.

The thing is, evening out the teams doesn't fix the "broken" aspect.

The feral ban was a unique never before seen thing - excluding a single spec from participating due to the EXTREME conditions.

And that it literally removed not just 50% of your health pool or did crazy deeps, but that it removed your entire health pool. It was just out of control. So it was more or less an exception.
 
I think the only question is if you think that adding surv hunters in would make the games more fun or not. Or if you decided to what stipulations would go with it to curb their natural greatness.

I can definitely see an argument as to why adding in surv hunter could be not fun, but I am going to make a statement to the contrary. If you ban throwing axes (not unheard of, lookin' at you schism) surv hunter will still be premiere mobility and melee burst without having the free non-committed range dmg. I think you can at least talk about about it under those circumstances.
 
Summarizing:
-incomparable single target damage.
-Roar of Sacrifice (40 yard range).
-Mortal Wounds.
-Harpoon (40 yard gap closer with root, and an overall wonky mechanic in terms of ignoring terrain).
-Survivalist (15% health over 10 seconds to both you and your pet).
-Track humanoid.
-Wing clip (50% slow for 15 seconds).
-Freezing trap (8 second CC).
Using sv without throwin axe limits the damage a lot. You'll have flanking strike for 50 focus and raptor strike for 25 focus, no axes to spawn while regaining focus.
People already chose to now play with Roar of sacrifice, Mortal Wounds, track hummanoid and concussive shot and freezing trap from MM hunters so idk if you can count this?
I see no reason at all not to allow SV on the condition that you cant play with throwing axes which is 35-40% of your current damage.

Not to mention the classes that suddenly might be available in this caster heavy meta.
 
Lift all bans. Have the regular rules - max 2 of each class.
Play the game. Then talk.

Have the meta evolve on its own.

- If something is too strong after enough samples - THEN you can tone it and adjust it as you'd like. Not prior to knowing. None of us know anything?! Including myself lol

(Edit: Things are WAY different in organised wargames. Pugs don't tell you anything but give you an idea of scaling. Not strats and viability.)
 

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