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EU+US Rogue wep bis question

Discussion in 'Level 10-19' started by Talezy, Nov 15, 2017.

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  1. Talezy

    Talezy Member

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    Hey, sorry if this question has already been answered, but i read somewhere that rarity is the most important factor for rogue twinking? I just bought the miniature winter's veil thing, so just double-checking to see if that is still bis for ipvp sub/mut at 19-29. Thanks.
     
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  2. Burgi0101

    Burgi0101 Member

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    For a sub and assa rogue it is still BiS afaik! Just go into bg and try it out! :)

    Would not play sub or assa @lvl19 due to lack of slows, outlaw is way better in this bracket.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  3. OP
    Talezy

    Talezy Member

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    Yea I know outlaw is better, but thought sub would output more damage with miniature winter veil, but didn’t seem as good as outlaw still. I played like 2 bgs with it equipped, which is why it didn’t seem bis, but it’s prob just that sub isn’t as strong as outlaw, regardless if sub has epic mh wep. But ya, I always play outlaw anyways, so I guess I’ll just stick with double sfang until an epic mh wep for outlaw is usable for 19. Thanks.
     
  4. artonkn

    artonkn add my skype bangers

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  5. Burgi0101

    Burgi0101 Member

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  6. Psilocybine

    Psilocybine Veteran

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    I would have to disagree. Even if rarity matters, the dps loss is crazy for your auto attacks. Recruits ilvl27 dagger is 9.17 dps / mini tree is 1.67 ......rarity does buff gloomblade from 421 to 443 when i swap daggers but i highly doubt that slight increase can make up for the base dps loss.

    Btw didnt notice a change in eviscerate when swapping daggers
     
  7. Voc

    Voc Catalyst

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    There is an epic one hand axe for MH. It's grandfathered. I have it but the name escapes me at the moment. There is also another grandfathered epic and it's 2h. Perfect for arms,surv, and feral. Both the 1h and 2h are account wide.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---
    Wouldn't your auto attack damage scale based on the template rules? If the rarity increases damage on main spells then one would assume the auto attack damage would increase or match the next best weapon.
     
  8. Dolfie

    Dolfie Member

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    Let's hope with the Zone scaling of 7.3.5 SM will be scaled down and thus the Halloween event will be scaled down! giving all 19's epic rings and 1h Sword and a helmet for plate classes ^^
     
  9. Burgi0101

    Burgi0101 Member

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    I think the base dps is not lost at all once you enter any bg or arena, the items will get scaled and the the actual dps won't be 1.67 anymore but rather 10 or something.

    Do you have some addon like DejaCaharcterStats to actually check the dmg increase and decrease?
     
  10. Psilocybine

    Psilocybine Veteran

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    "Wouldn't your auto attack damage scale based on the template rules?"

    Even if it did scale would it quadruple base dps?
    I am using the stats provided in game, sooooo i used auto attack with mini tree, the crits on auto were 28...crits with my other dagger 56.

    Believe what you want, but base dps has always mattered more than stats. Just my 2 cents
     
  11. Burgi0101

    Burgi0101 Member

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    My guess is that it gets scaled up to ilevel 24 and afterwards the epic bonus is applied. I do completely understand if this is outside of any arena or bg but inside epic > blue
     
  12. Psilocybine

    Psilocybine Veteran

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    Well it doesnt change ilvl or base dps....i went into a bg to check my numbers before posting.
     
  13. Burgi0101

    Burgi0101 Member

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    Yeah for sure it doesn't show you that it actually changes as it doesn't for any other item aswell.
     
  14. Voc

    Voc Catalyst

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    I'm going to test some of this stuff myself soon. Decided to go panda on horde.
     
  15. Psilocybine

    Psilocybine Veteran

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    Smh, my attacks are lower so yes im seeing a difference.
     
  16. OP
    Talezy

    Talezy Member

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    Pretty sure you’re talking about the replica weapons from blizz movie promotion. I didn’t twink when it was released so ya, quick sold it on my 100. Don’t think there are any other epic quality weps for rogues obtainable atm except for miniature winters tree veil. I would have had the hallows end epic sword, but I didnt get it cuz bad rng.
     
  17. Nitten_19

    Nitten_19 Member

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    since 7.3 both Sub, and Outlaw were buffed. Outlaw is Preferred spec, you can run [pistol shot], or [Swordmaster] + [Saber Slice] for more Combo points. since 7.3 attack speed does not matter you can get away using double shadowfangs, or double heirloom swords. result will be -0.08% stat difference between ilvl24 weapons and ilvl28 weapons, not a huge difference. remember to wear all leather or you lose 5% stats. :)
     
  18. OP
    Talezy

    Talezy Member

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    Yea, haven’t managed to get the BG axe/sword for offhand with stats that I like, since I’m ocd about having crit/Vers or full vers. Just thought that sub or mut would pull higher due to having an epic mh dagger, but gonna just stick with outlaw. And ya, I wear all leather. Pretty sure my 19 rogue and 20 rogue are pretty much bis for ipvp, aside from having invasion gear and epic quality main hand weps on all of them. Thanks for the info.
     
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  19. Bestworld

    Bestworld MBA

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    Miniature Winter's Veil is bis for Sub and Assa. The reason for this is rarity scaling, as you have noted yourself. However, there are more factors when calculating the scaling of a weapon. When looking at individual weapon categories, rarity will be the most important. However, if you compare daggers to swords etc. things like weapon speed comparisons comes into play again.

    Weapon scaling factors:
    -Rarity
    -Speed
    -Raw Damage
    -Instanced PvP scaling

    The reason why epics, such as the Miniature Winter's Veil, is good is not "only" because it's epic, although that is the most important of the scaling factors when comparing a single category (i.e. daggers vs daggers, swords vs swords etc.). Even when stats don't count in instanced PvP anymore, the equipment is still scaled to the average item level of each bracket, which is the item level of your heirloom at the brackets max lvl. That means that item lvl 1 epics gets scaled to item lvl 24 for the 10-19 bracket. One of the reasons as to why this is important to note, is because that the item lvl 1 epic weapons usually have pretty good "raw damage" for their actual item lvl. For instance, Replica Blood Guard's Cleaver has 3-7 Raw damage(1.92 DPS). 3-7 raw damage for an item lvl 1 weapon is quite a lot actually. Now take those factors and scale the weapon.

    Raw damage in compensation with speed, instanced PvP scaling + rarity bonus.

    So as you can see, you overlooked the other scaling variables when comparing the Miniature Winter's Veil in two different specs that are built around different weapon-usage. That is why you will see tooltips that is meant for daggers being different. So, equipping the dagger for outlaw, which is balanced around swords, maces and fist-weapons, will mean less damage solely based off the weapon speed. Slower weapons still hit harder regardless of item level. However, this variable has fallen off drastically due to the normalization of weapon speeds, but that doesn't mean when comparing weapons of different categories that it doesn't apply.

    It is important to note that you will only see a marginal increase in tooltip damage. The auto attacks should be around the same as the other weapons. This is also why you should only go for epics in your main-hand, and focus on item level/swag in your off-hand, unless you have an ability that calculates damage from your off-hand as well.

    A funny discovery that sparked my interest around how weapon scaling currently work was when the thread about how Nightreaver actually surpassed the item lvl 27 blue from the BG crate, although Nightreaver would have less item level, and its raw damage wouldn't be enough for it to scale past the item lvl 27 blue BG weapon. However, it seems that proc effects also have an influence in how weapon damage is calculated, but I'll need further testing. So far, I can say with certainty that weapons with SHADOW (for the lack of having tested anything else) equals BoA (heirloom). That is actually a huge discovery, because then what about legendaries with proc damage, such as Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros? Does the proc bonus mean it will scale even further than that of already being a legendary? Different proc types might have different scaling?

    One thing for sure, is that proc effects have become completely fucked. Low lvl items, such as Searing Blade, has a huge proc-based damage effect for its actual item level and rarity. It's the same item level and rarity as Nightreaver, which is a blue, item lvl 23 2-hander. Nightreaver has a proc effect of 75 shadow damage, while Searing Blade has an initial proc damage of 303 fire damage PLUS an additional 302 damage over time effect. That's a total of 605 damage. Does that mean that it will scale even better than those of same rarity and proc based effects simply because the proc effect is so much stronger for some apparent reason?

    So if someone is down to test a lot of this and provide some info, that'd be great. Surely there's some in the community with Sulfuras etc. that could do some comparisons and provide the numbers, as well as people having different proc types to test with etc. etc.

    Also just as a side-note for those reading through all of this, casters should still equip a wand if they can, regardless of what rarity they are comparing it against. Wands still count as 2-handers (i.e. staves) in the stat-template, so that means you'll essentially be running around with a "staff" and off-hand, giving you a lot more stats as opposed to not having a wand equipped. Wand rarity only increases "shoot" damage, so just go for whichever wand has the highest item lvl.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  20. Nitten_19

    Nitten_19 Member

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    Nerd, you have too much free time :p
     

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