[NA] Guild Ranking TBC 19s

HairyTreeMan · Aug 2, 2021

I am creating a ranking system for NA TBC 19s. I want to create this system for a multitude of reasons:

Keeps Guilds actively challenging/accepting challenges
Penalizes Guilds for not accepting challenges
Keeps an up-to-date ranking of every active Guild
Creates spectator hype for upcoming matches
Rank changes are just a win away (Overall W/L doesn't matter)

For starters, this is NOT a tournament. This is not something with an end date. This is simply a way to rank Guilds based on everyday events. My goal is NOT to create any gameplay rules or dictate/alter gameplay in any way. I simply intend to report on the results of games and rank the results in a way that keeps things active and interesting.

How the ranking system works

Entering

Guilds become "active" in 1 of 2 ways:

Once they play their first wargame.
A Guild Leader asks to opt in ahead of time.

Guilds will initially seed in the order they become active. Each new Guild enters in last place.

Ranking

If the lower rank Guild wins, they acquire the rank of the defeated Guild and bump any Guilds between down a rank. (For example, if 4 beats 2, 4 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4)
Rankings will be determined dynamically based on amount of games played in a session.
BO3 results will be used if 3 games occur. BO2/BO1 results will be used if only 2 or 1 game(s) occur.
- BO2 (Lowest set size for same faction Guilds)
  - Each Guild plays 1 game on each side of the field. (If same faction)
  - If the series is tied 1-1, cap differential takes the set. If still tied, the team that won the fastest takes the set. If STILL tied, it's a draw and no rank changes will occur.
  - The following exist so map advantage cannot be abused in same faction scenarios:
    - If the lower ranked Guild wins game 1, but is unable to continue for a game 2, no rank changes will occur.
    - If the higher ranked Guild wins game 1, but is unable to continue for a game 2, they will forfeit the set to the lower ranked Guild.
    - If the losing Guild cannot continue for a game 2, they lose the set.
- BO1 (Can only occur if Guilds are different factions)
  - The winner has been determined since there will be no side of field advantage.
Guilds will only be held accountable to the Official Challenge Window if a challenging Guild is within 2 ranks at the time of the challenge. (For example, 4th rank can only challenge up to 2nd. Prevents low ranked Guilds from taking timeslots from top Guilds)(More on this below)
- Games that occur which surpass the rank range will still be considered as Official for rank changes, but teams won't be held accountable for the 2 week challenge window in these cases.
Matches are only considered for official ranking if each Guild involved has at least 6 of its Guild members in attendance.

Challenge Window

A Guild that is challenged (defending team) must provide a date(s) that work(s) within 2 weeks of the challenge date.
If a Guild fails to provide a date once challenged by another Guild within 2 weeks of the challenge date, they forfeit the match and their rank.
For a rank change to occur from a no-show/dodge, proof must be provided that the two week window was 1) incurred 2) passed
- Guilds can post screenshots of formal challenges to other Guild leaders in this thread to timestamp proof of their challenge date.
- The timestamp of the XpOff comment will be considered the starting date for the 2 week period, NOT the timestamp in discord or other app.
Without an XpOff comment in this thread, Guilds cannot officially prove another Guild dodged and the challenge won't be considered official.
TLDR Post a screenshot here to protect your own ass, otherwise I'm not declaring a dodge.

Inactivity

If a Guild has been proven to dodge two consecutive challenges (4 weeks total), the Guild will be considered inactive and moved into an "Inactive" list.
If an Inactive Guild becomes active again, they will start from bottom rank as if they were entering for the first time.

Iild · Aug 2, 2021

HairyTreeMan said:
Ranking

If the lower rank Guild wins, they acquire the rank of the defeated Guild and bump any Guilds between down a rank. (For example, if 4 beats 2, 4 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4)

lol

Falaris · Aug 2, 2021

There's a lot wrong with this post.

Spewk · Aug 2, 2021

Falaris said:
There's a lot wrong with this post.

Agreed. Labeling any guild as inactive is only hurting the community not just the guild. If a guild fails to fill for 4 weeks, it suggest they would need to recruit. If they attempt to recruit and someone finds them labeled as an "inactive" guild by your terms, they will immediately dismiss the guild because they are "inactive.'

(Hass) · Aug 2, 2021

GL Hairy - you'll run into a lot of people who'll point out all the problems with your idea only to not provide any solutions or constructive feedback.

Big kuddos to woh for aggressively scheduling matches to kick start the premade scene for 19s!

Falaris · Aug 2, 2021

There's plenty of solutions here.

Don't create a system that tries to guilt trip guilds into play guilds they don't enjoy playing.

Don't create a system that discourages HvH and AvA games by only 'counting' the first game of a series, when the side that gets 'their base' disproportionally has an advantage

Don't create a system that is ambiguous regarding who is dodging whom. For example. Pizza reached out to me regarding setting up a game. I said sure, we have some rules we would like to go by. Pizza declined to accept. Does this now mean that GLHF has dodged Phoenix?

Don't discourage a premade scene by encouraging every guild to post screenshots after every game, when sometimes people are just interested in gaming and trying new things, and may not do that due to the inherent toxicity in the 19 premade scene (as evidenced by this 'competition' in the first place)

Also, bonus material, I'll throw out another solution

Lets just play some games of warsong gulch and enjoy the premades.

(Hass) · Aug 2, 2021

It's a system that creates accountability. Hairy was in NHF, they were dodged and quit.. he was then in GSC.. they were dodged and quit.. and now he's in a guild that has former cws members.. they were dodged and quit. I can see why he wants to reach out to the community to implement a system to hold guilds accountable. The system has rankings just for the simplicity of structure.. it is just a metric in what teams are doing well and what teams aren't, and that metric can change at anytime by simply playing the game. There's a clear message of "W/L doesn't matter"... if people view this system as toxic you might need to reassess if you're a premading guild or a pug guild.

Also, bonus material, the only guild dodging is yours with "my rule set" or no games. The conversation you bring up was much more civil in DMs, and in fact im almost certain we even told you that if every other horde guild agrees to your rule set that we would more than likely agree to them with the reasoning being it's not fair for us to conform to your rule set when other horde guilds are treated differently regarding rules - it sets a bad precedent.

Just be transparent with your character, don't act one way in DMs and then edgy/alpha in public.

Iild · Aug 2, 2021

(Hass) said:
Also, bonus material, the only guild dodging is yours with "my rule set" or no games. The conversation you bring up was much more civil in DMs, and in fact im almost certain we even told you that if every other horde guild agrees to your rule set that we would more than likely agree to them with the reasoning being it's not fair for us to conform to your rule set when other horde guilds are treated differently regarding rules - it sets a bad precedent.

only way a ranking system like this can be taken seriously and could work is if every guild runs the same rules for every single premade then

if every guild is playing with different rulesets then it cheapens certain matches, even if the rules are very very slightly changed from match to match

Penster · Aug 2, 2021

(Hass) said:
It's a system that creates accountability. Hairy was in NHF, they were dodged and quit.. he was then in GSC.. they were dodged and quit.. and now he's in a guild that has former cws members.. they were dodged and quit. I can see why he wants to reach out to the community to implement a system to hold guilds accountable. The system has rankings just for the simplicity of structure.. it is just a metric in what teams are doing well and what teams aren't, and that metric can change at anytime by simply playing the game. There's a clear message of "W/L doesn't matter"... if people view this system as toxic you might need to reassess if you're a premading guild or a pug guild.

Also, bonus material, the only guild dodging is yours with "my rule set" or no games. The conversation you bring up was much more civil in DMs, and in fact im almost certain we even told you that if every other horde guild agrees to your rule set that we would more than likely agree to them with the reasoning being it's not fair for us to conform to your rule set when other horde guilds are treated differently regarding rules - it sets a bad precedent.

Just be transparent with your character, don't act one way in DMs and then edgy/alpha in public.

acting edgy/alpha in public is only way wdym

Iild · Aug 2, 2021

i just find it funny a guild could literally pop up in the dying days of tbc and challenge #1 team and win and be considered the best tbc guild only playing 1 game assuming there's only like 3 guilds left at the end of tbc which there will be

but thats just me

HairyTreeMan · Aug 2, 2021

Iild said:
i just find it funny a guild could literally pop up in the dying days of tbc and challenge #1 team and win and be considered the best tbc guild only playing 1 game assuming there's only like 3 guilds left at the end of tbc which there will be

but thats just me

If TBC is in it's dying days and nobody is even playing, does it really matter?

Iild · Aug 2, 2021

HairyTreeMan said:
If TBC is in it's dying days and nobody is even playing, does it really matter?

just pointing out the ranking system is flawed with a 1 win for rank up system, make it a bo3 and you're golden
if you want to make it more spectator friendly while also providing bracket longevity make the matches happen on separate dates
set 3 dates within same 2 week period before game 1, if a team no shows one date later on they forfeit that point in the bo3

with the added benefit on not having to update the rankings every 2 days for every match played

with the added added benefit of rankings not randomly changing while multiple different guild matches are scheduled

HairyTreeMan · Aug 2, 2021

Iild said:
only way a ranking system like this can be taken seriously and could work is if every guild runs the same rules for every single premade then

if every guild is playing with different rulesets then it cheapens certain matches, even if the rules are very very slightly changed from match to match

I agree with this, but there are currently Guild(s) advocating for PBMs and/or other consumes that were generally not a part of the standard ruleset coming from Classic. I personally hate the idea of "we won't play unless x consume is allowed." But, if I sit here and try to force a ruleset on everyone, I'm going to be bombarded with how I'm making rules that favor x Guild. I don't want to be setting any specific rules that alter gameplay, I'm just trying to loosely rank Guilds based on the results.
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Iild said:
just pointing out the ranking system is flawed with a 1 win for rank up system, make it a bo3 and you're golden
if you want to make it more spectator friendly while also providing bracket longevity make the matches happen on separate dates
set 3 dates within same 2 week period before game 1, if a Guild no shows one date later on they forfeit that point in the bo3

with the added benefit on not having to update the rankings every 2 days for every match played

with the added added benefit of rankings not randomly changing while multiple different guild matches are scheduled

This is one of the most annoying components because there are no time limits on games. I wish there was a clean way to do BO3. With BO3 occurring on multiple nights, Guilds are artificially "locked in" to playing only that other Guild for those two weeks. A Guild would have to be scheduling 6 nights if two Guilds challenged them. Otherwise, other Guilds that want to challenge one of those Guilds would have to wait for that two week period/3rd game to end. With the BO1, Guilds can have two different Guilds challenge them at the same time and they can play both within 2 weeks.
[doublepost=1627925929][/doublepost]

Falaris said:
Don't create a system that tries to guilt trip guilds into play guilds they don't enjoy playing.

This is one of the biggest thing I hate about the current bracket culture. Everyone has a "reason" for not playing each Guild.

Falaris said:
Don't create a system that discourages HvH and AvA games by only 'counting' the first game of a series, when the side that gets 'their base' disproportionally has an advantage

This one is difficult to tackle and I wish the game had time limits so BO3 was a viable option. I don't want to enforce any gameplay rules so it would be up to the two Guilds playing to handle this. I could see challenging Guilds try to demand a side of the field since the defending Guild technically gets to pick the time/date giving them a potential roster availability advantage. The defending Guild also has to play within that two week period or else they can be punished for dodging, so the challenging Guild potentially has the say in which side.

Falaris said:
Don't create a system that is ambiguous regarding who is dodging whom. For example. Pizza reached out to me regarding setting up a game. I said sure, we have some rules we would like to go by. Pizza declined to accept. Does this now mean that GLHF has dodged Phoenix?

From my understanding, your Guild is one of, if not the only ones in the bracket demanding special rules. 29s coming to the bracket and demanding additional consumables to be allowed doesn't sit well with me. I wouldn't expect a Guild to be held accountable for disagreeing to play with a nonstandard ruleset.

Falaris said:
Don't discourage a premade scene by encouraging every guild to post screenshots after every game, when sometimes people are just interested in gaming and trying new things, and may not do that due to the inherent toxicity in the 19 premade scene (as evidenced by this 'competition' in the first place)

I am not trying to discourage anyone from premading. If anything, I am trying to encourage Guilds to play more often and see that losing isn't such a big deal. If you lose and think it was a fluke, run it back. Reclaim your rank with one win.
[doublepost=1627926317][/doublepost]

Spewk said:
Agreed. Labeling any guild as inactive is only hurting the community not just the guild. If a guild fails to fill for 4 weeks, it suggest they would need to recruit. If they attempt to recruit and someone finds them labeled as an "inactive" guild by your terms, they will immediately dismiss the guild because they are "inactive.'

The post can easily be used for recruiting as well. I can flag certain Guilds as "Actively Recruiting" and include contact info. If a Guild is failing to field a 10 man roster, from a competitive standpoint I would classify them as Inactive or Rebuilding.

Falaris · Aug 2, 2021

Remember the golden rule for premades: Whatever rules are set are guidelines only and the real rules are decided among the GMs themselves.

Didn't CWS have its own set of rules it insisted on other teams go by when they came to 29s, regardless of what was accepted by the community? What's the difference? Didn't Hass AFK a premade vs AT because AT used an item that was allowed by the 'normal' rule of 29 premades yet CWS felt they should be banned in 'their' premades?

"A nonstandard ruleset". 1. This is TBC, not classic. There is no standard ruleset for TBC. There's been 1 premade. Weren't mortars a part of the 19 ruleset at one point then banned? What's up with 'never changing established rulesets'?

Your guild plays a style that leads to stalled games. You're in an environment where health pools have risen dramatically while damage has not. Yet you still insist on classic rules when the environment isn't the same as classic.

HairyTreeMan · Aug 2, 2021

Falaris said:
Remember the golden rule for premades: Whatever rules are set are guidelines only and the real rules are decided among the GMs themselves.

Didn't CWS have its own set of rules it insisted on other teams go by when they came to 29s, regardless of what was accepted by the community? What's the difference? Didn't Hass AFK a premade vs AT because AT used an item that was allowed by the 'normal' rule of 29 premades yet CWS felt they should be banned in 'their' premades?

"A nonstandard ruleset". 1. This is TBC, not classic. There is no standard ruleset for TBC. There's been 1 premade. Weren't mortars a part of the 19 ruleset at one point then banned? What's up with 'never changing established rulesets'?

Your guild plays a style that leads to stalled games. You're in an environment where health pools have risen dramatically while damage has not. Yet you still insist on classic rules when the environment isn't the same as classic.

In an ideal world, this rule discussion would happen between the GMs and a formal set of rules would be established for premades in TBC. I really dislike the idea of different teams requesting different premade rules.

On a side note, I don't plan to have a roster spot on GLHF and they don't plan for me to either. I intend to fill for any team that wishes to use me as a sub on a night they are lacking.

Wapcity · Aug 2, 2021

Creative ideas here, wishing everyone a fun time!

Jamesb · Aug 3, 2021

It’s not perfect, but neither is anyone complaining.
At least someone here wants to play some real games.
The dudes that /afk pugs any time they’re faced with anything but a face roll will prolly be toward the bottom of this list, and them guys tend to be the loudest. Thanks hairy

Bowner · Aug 4, 2021

I read through thread quickly, some people seem have problem with 1 win / 1 loss effecting rankings? Have youbthought of adding in cap differentials into the equation?

ExudeCans · Aug 4, 2021

Despite some of the flaws, I can see that the goal of this post and idea is to ENCOURAGE more premades, and for that I commend you HTM. Basically saying you can’t consider yourself the number 1 guild if you haven’t played lately. A fair point.

JustFine · Aug 7, 2021

Excited for the upcoming games.

Good stuff!

[NA] Guild Ranking TBC 19s

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