Meme spec raiding, how you plan to do it?

Discussion in '60s (Vanilla Endgame)' started by Neon, Sep 4, 2019.

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  1. Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    How do you guys plan to raid for bis gear on meme specs?

    Will you make your own guild? Buy out the raidloot? Run a million times?

    Lets hear it I want to know I am levelling a rdruid alliance and enh shaman horde so I am sure I will face these problems myself.
     
  2. hom

    hom Veteran

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    I'm planning on an elemental shaman.

    To be honest I don't think the raids are going to be as challenging as they were back in 2004 (as seen with the first molten core clear just a week into the release) with the decades of experience people have now.
    Because of this I doubt it will be as vital to pick a top tier spec.

    This is what I hope for anyway.
     
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  3. jwl

    jwl Trade-Glitch / FC God.

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    You guys can have fun not receiving loot in your 40-man raids.

    My main will be twinking at 49 for a while, then slowly progressing to 59 as I obtain my dungeon tier sets.
     
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  4. OP
    Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    Idk some people back from the real vanilla experience are still extremely biased to meme specs and insist on running 1 druid, no meme specs, warrior tank only, etc,etc,etc.

    Might have to make a meme spec raiding guild.
     
  5. hom

    hom Veteran

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    The only reason there are 'meme specs' are because they literally cannot function in long fights due to mana issues (Moonkin, Elemental Shaman, Reti paladin w/o gear, Spriest w/o gear).
    Enhancement shaman should be fine. The only reason you might not get in is because you'll be taking loot away from other dps which naturally do better (hunter, warrior, druid, rogue).

    The issue I foresee myself running into as elemental is mana issues. I honestly don't think the spec can sustain itself in a 3-5 min fight.
    This is why I plan on running a hybrid resto/elemental focused build so i can squeeze into raid spots.

    Pvp will be elemental focused of course...
     
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  6. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    Mana is not the problem at this point, with the exception of a few fights or if your guild is below average or trying Molten Core in green gear and not everybody being level 60, like the guilds have been doing this past week. There's no excuse at this point, to not be chugging mana potions and Demonic Runes whenever you need. And that itself should be more than enough for your average raid boss.

    The boss fights go so quick at this point, because everybody and their mother understands proper gearing and in most cases are stacking warriors/rogues and mages. The main problem is that they simply can't meet the DPS threshold of what most guilds expect from their members.
    Balance Druids and Elemental Shamans suffer the same problem of having difficulties reducing boss nature resistance. All other casters have some sort of debuff or benefit from somebody else, to increase their damage, like Shadow Weaving or Curse of Elements.
    About Enhancement shamans. They already do below average DPS with Stormstrike. So you can't use that in raids because of the debuff slots, which makes them even worse. Then remove the ability to be spamming Earthshock on cooldown as well, and you're bound to only be auto-attacking. They have one of the worst Nightfall uptimes as well, which is why most people don't use them for that either.
    The only 'meme' spec which can actually follow the top DPS, is a Feral Druid knowing how to play with Powershifting and using correct consumables, like the Manual Crowd Pummeler for the haste. It requires immense effort, way more than your average raiding DPS spec, which is why barely anybody does it. And for every 50 feral druids, only a handful will do this, which puts them into "meme spec" status, because barely anybody sees feral druids doing it.
     
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  7. hom

    hom Veteran

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    If properly prepared with demonic runes, potions and elixirs there shouldn't be mana issues, i agree with you here.
    But most don't prepare this way. This sheds a bad light on the rest that do set themselves up properly and gives them the meme status that's stuck. Shamans and Moonkins should be running a hybrid build so they bridge across the dps healer role to contribute more to the raid, seeing as they do less dps than others.

    In regards to enhance using Nightfall, they don't do as badly as you make out. With a crit strike focused build + Flurry + Elemental Devastation they can do pretty well. I forget when it was changed but windfury on weapon could proc itself which in some cases has 1 shot some serious NPCs and players (of course, basing the choice of a class on a proc like windfury is not reasonable).

    Shamans do at the end of the day provide totems which, depending on how many shamans you have in the raid could warrant picking up an enhance shaman to help in those situations... maybe. They also have their 6 second interrupt which is always useful & enhance will nearly always be in range.

    Shamans can also tank a little bit if need be. A full mail shaman with a shield built correctly with stamina can tank (mainly used in dungeon cleave setups). I've never seen it tried in raids though until WOTLK.

    I hope that guilds will be more relaxed about the 'be this spec or don't roll with us' attitude. i really don't think it's needed now that people understand mechanics and know how to build their toons + prepping well.
    We'll have to see how this pans out
     
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  8. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    In terms of Nightfall uptime it is considered one of the worst wielders of it, because they rely on auto attacks to proc it, along with Windfury, and about any class wielding it, except for paladins, have a higher uptime, due to instant abilities. It is fact that they're one of the worst wielders of it.

    In regards to totems, sure, they bring them. So do resto shamans which bring much more to the table than an enhancement do. Enhancement shaman going imp. totems doesn't make up for the much lower damage. If you really want those totems, you make a resto shaman do so.

    You won't tank in leather gear as a shaman. If you're serious about doing DPS you're not going to wield a lot of mail. There's simply not enough good pieces around.

    Guilds are not more relaxed about the specs, unless you find a guild straight up not caring about it, which is not impossible they have always been there. It's just that average guilds don't actively try to recruit these specs/people.
    It's not about how hard the content is, anymore. It's about if you can clear it within a reasonable time, without having people doing twice the DPS of others. Most people want a smooth run, so they can cut off a day of raiding and do whatever they actually want, such as PvP or something else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  9. hom

    hom Veteran

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    There's plenty of decent mail dps items available, some slots might be leather but most can be mail.
    IDK where you heard that nightfall uptime is considered one of the worst on enhance shamans, their attack speed stacks up to an impressive number when they get swinging. Druids and Warriors are the only two that could be competing for this & most druids will be taking something else like the Ardent Custodian.

    If an enhance has a good build with the right talents and gear + nightfall they'll surprise you. They won't being doing as much dps as warriors or rogues but it won't be too far off. They've just had a bad wrap from day 1 as a viable spec.

    Sure most guilds want a smooth run but as i said, i think with the current game knowledge & ability to keybind, gear and rotation things will be different.
     
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  10. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    How exactly is a druid going to proc the weapon? They can't wield axes and they can't proc weapon effects in any druid form.
    Hunters is way better as well, because they can spam instant attacks, like the Warrior, which is why the Shaman have one of the worst Nightfall uptimes. Because they got none. They rely on the weapon speed + WF to proc it. Meanwhile a Warrior/hunter can use an attack every 1,5 seconds to fish for the proc.
    Ardent Custodian? What are you talking about? That weapon is not worth it to use, at all.

    Also, their DPS is way worse than a Warrior/Rogue/Mage/Warlock's DPS. It's been shown time and time again on private servers with similar coefficients and mechanics like Classic, they're literally half the DPS the top DPS specs are doing. There's absolutely no denying that. You're auto-attacking, that's all you can do. You can't use any shocks, you can't use Stormstrike.

    Problem is knowledge, keybinding and rotations isn't limited to only meme spec players. The Warrior, Rogue, Mage and what not will do exactly the same and increase their performance as well, so the gap will still be there.

    I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics to try and make Enhancement Shamans acceptable. It's been shown and proven time and time, they can't do any remotely good DPS compared to the top DPS specs out there. Not trying to be rude, but it honestly feels like you don't know what you're talking about.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  11. OP
    Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    If the raid told me to not use shocks or stormstrike I would tell them to eat my ass.
     
  12. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    Do that. Doesn't change anything from what I've said.
     
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  13. hom

    hom Veteran

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    Sorry I thought that nightfall was a mace for some reason.

    You're right, I'm playing mental gymnastics to make Enhancement Shamans acceptable.
    I don't think they're top tier by any means. But a good enhancement that twists well can be valuable.

    I'm tired of shamans being condemned to resto, nobody gives them a chance.
     
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  14. OP
    Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    Theres actually a youtuber named holderhek that pulls 750+ dps on enh.
     
  15. Crystalpall

    Crystalpall the F2P PvEr

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    I can’t raid myself, but I fail to see how a group would refuse one or two “weaker” specs a place in a Classic raid, they don’t seem difficult at all so why not let some players tag along?

    On the other side of the spectrum, if you are a “meme spec” and you’re raiding, know that you probably can’t do as much and prepare accordingly, do something extra, bring more special consumables, make sure you’re not just a dead weight.
     
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  16. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    He's using Earth Shock on cooldown, which is most likely going to draw aggro.

    He's also using Stormstrike, which takes up a debuff slot and is not worth it. The debuff slot taken doesn't increase the Shaman's DPS more than it decreases the overall raid's DPS.

    So 750~ DPS in absolute BiS gear, taking up a debuff slot and possibly drawing aggro. Meanwhile Warriors, Rogues, Mages and Warlocks are sitting at 1000-1400 DPS not having problems with aggro or taking up debuff slots.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  17. OP
    Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    750 was pre raid bis he gets 1k dps or higher. No classes are going to be doing 1400 dps at the most they are doing 1200ish dps. Also to be fair he would not lose that much dps if he frost shocked instead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  18. Efflux

    Efflux Grandfathered

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    Frost Shock, albeit little, is going to make you do less DPS. Also, not using Stormstrike at all is going to cut down on your WF procs.

    Point still stands.

    You're still looking at Warriors and Rogues doing more than that. Also, can you link the video?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  19. OP
    Neon

    Neon Classic tink

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    Ok well no enhance is not going to try to be the best dps they can be, and if anyone EVER tells me to not use stormstrike because it will take up a debuff I will tell them to lick my balls.
     
  20. Chops

    Chops Soccer Dad

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    Have fun getting into like three raids before people stop inviting you.
     
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