[Level 20][Opinion] All Specs Mastery Rundown

Discussion in '20s (Shadowlands)' started by Bop, Apr 4, 2022.

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  1. Banishedjr

    Banishedjr Legend

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    That u heztasy ?

    I saw u play ele yesterday and honestly I think you’re really overestimating your abilities versus other peoples and then blaming it on the meta and pocket heals
     
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  2. JadeFire

    JadeFire Worthless

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    That would be amazing since I don't have any elemental gear on Slackjackson, but sure if I queued elemental in my enhance gear and forgot about it you got me. However, as a priest anything should look unimpressive to you (I would hope).
     
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  3. OP
    Bop

    Bop Remember the Treeline

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    Draft 2 is out! Thanks for your input everyone! The discussion here was poured over with a finetooth comb, I assure you. The ultimate goal is for this to be as much of a community project as possible, with myself having the hubris to feel like I can pretty accurately gauge the good points from the bad ones. I update the post based on the discussions in this thread, so feel free to keep it going!

    Changelist --->

    - Updated scoring key to be clearer, particularly for 3/5 score.
    - Added back in class specialization icons... kind of weird that they turned into invalid PNG's so quickly.
    - Frost DK is now a 4/5 (from 5/5). I feel that while it is probably the best secondary stat, it doesn't deserve the sort of weight given to 5/5s. Reaching a good Haste threshold is critically important for DKs and sort of caps the value of any other secondary for them.
    - Assassination is now a 1/5 (from 4/5) Completely missed that Assassination's mastery doesn't work on Bleeds at level 20. This plummets it from a 4/5 to a 1/5. It is strictly worse than other secondary stats available to them.
    - Beast Mastery is now 3/5 (from 4/5). The discussion convinced me that going all in on a mastery that doesn't directly buff the Hunter itself shouldn't be in a 4/5 tier. Especially with BM hunters relying on a burst window that can be perfectly complemented with an Elekk Tusk trinket.
    - Destruction is now a 5/5 (from 4/5). @Hashbrowns weighting of it as better than Intellect in his testing swayed me, especially since it also brings a defensive option. Per the updated 5/5 description, this doesn't have to mean that full savant is the best possible build, which I doubt that Destro Mastery would continue to be after you started dropping Haste.
    - Arms is now a 3/5 (from 4/5). Both @Chops and @mirrorbender both made good arguments that the very slight dps advantage combined with the awkwardness of starting out burst on a target both prevent this from being in the 4/5 "get a lot of this" category. For the small DPS difference between Mastery and Crit, you give up the raw impact of landing a Sudden Death execute critical strike. Their discussion is enough of a reason for me to see lowering Arms' score.
    - Mistweaver is now a 5/5 (from 4/5). This one is mainly from my own confusion over how MW's mastery works. But @mirrorbender 's explanation makes sense from what I've seen in game before, and the flat healing output is unparalleled for MW

    Did Not Update --->
    - Fury. Keeping it at 2/5. Mastery seems too situational to place it higher. Even for something like an Elekk Tusk build, you can't consistently proc the Enrage condition at level 20 enough to make it worth it.
    - Arcane. Keeping it at 5/5. I was very torn between leaving it at 5/5 or moving it to 4/5. I need to see more data supporting it being less effective than any other secondary, as @Ivo states. As it stands purely on the numbers, stacking Arcane Charges would lead to a 3%/1.5% increase per mastery point in Arcane Blast / Barrage damage, which is far and away better than the numbers from any other secondary. Even those aside, spamming Arcane Missiles leads to a 1% damage increase per mastery point and an increase to sustained DPS from mana / mana regen. I would love to see more testing and discussion here.
    - Discipline. Keeping it at 3/5. It is a pretty sizeable increase to healing and fairly easy to keep up on multiple allies. I don't think Elekk Tusk is worth it, but I think that's also sort of a thing with healers in general rather than a knock on mastery. Increases to mastery during a window are more valuable for DPS trying to get kills than for Healers, who generally are gated by CC or reaction time rather than HPS. But as it stands, Mastery is the highest HPS stat after you've gotten Haste to 20% in pvp or so. Realistically speaking, you will want Vers on a priest every day of the week. But there is a specific niche (squishy HPS) that Mastery fills. Haste 100 > Vers = Mastery as a build niche would equate to a 3/5 in my eyes.
    - Shadow. Keeping it at 3/5. As Ivo pointed out, Spriest Mastery is designed around keeping up 3 dots, which is impossible for extended periods of time at level 20. That being said, mastery does amp up your Psyfiend burst window when combined with Mind Blast + Unfurling Darkness + Shadow Word: Death. It also *very slightly* eaks out a damage increase at 2 dots over Versatility. To me, this is the bottom end of a 3/5 spec, but it still has a specific niche where Mastery does better than other stats.
    - Protection Warrior. Keeping it at 1/5. While I don't dispute that Prot gains quite a bit from Mastery stacking in PvE, I just don't see how this would ever be less than a terrible stat to have on your gear in pvp. Versatility and either Haste or Critical Strike seem like they would flat outperform in what I presume to be the main ways you would play ProtW in pvp -> Being a tanky CC bot with one of your many CC oriented pvp talent options, putting Bodyguard on your team's Hunter for massive damage reduction, or being an annoying dps / nerf bot for caster dps with Shield Bash.
    - Elemental. Keeping it at a 5/5. I think the discussion centered about Elemental had more to do with the "5/5" score being unclear, implying that it means savant stacking is the class's best choice. But no class that I am aware of values mastery to the exclusivity of all other secondary stats, so I updated the 5/5 score key to reflect a better interpretation of what it means. The consensus seems to be that you want enough Mastery on Ele to be at roughly 50% chance to proc the 2nd cast in a pvp instance, which would be enough in my view to justify a 5/5 score.
    - Enhancement. Keeping at a 3/5. The discussion around Enhance has pretty much defined it by what a 3/5 score should be - it allows an interesting / unique way of playing the class without being a core way of building the spec.
     
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  4. Chops

    Chops Soccer Dad Moderator

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    Some of these more interesting masteries (IE the ones that arent just a straight output increase but instead change the mechanics of the class) make them very difficult to quantify and I really appreciate the effort it takes to try and apply a number to something like that.

    Also appreciate the explanations and consideration on various points. Seems like, with rare exception, we're all pretty much nitpicking in the range of "this is a really high 3/5" "no no, its a low 4/5". Which can be very tedious.
     
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  5. JadeFire

    JadeFire Worthless

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    I think its decent enough... you are never gonna get it perfect because just look at the armory... there are 100s of different builds in there with 100s of different opinions (and I assure you if you talk to each person they are "right").

    Who you play with/what time of day you play is going to effect your opinion of how well you do in the 20s more than your gear will (given that you are geared in some maxed out fashion), so unless you are really a person that has 6-7 different gear sets that you have actually tested out (would blow my mind if that is even 5% of all twinks)... opinions don't really matter. Most people just build something then that's it... they will insist until the end of time that their build is the best... that's just twinking/these forums.

    IMO I think you are bonkers weighing mastery at 3/5 on enhance... sure you take the BC gem gear/ eng goggles /gem for agi/haste/crit... once you have that your Crit/Haste are set... then you chose between verse/mastery... Mastery blows verse away for the slots you have left you can stack it... to me that makes it the only choice left... I don't see how that's not 5/5.... there are only two options left after that point and one is just better than the other... but, its not my scale.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  6. Goesid

    Goesid Twink Info Legend

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    Some specs definetly want that, chasing boe boots, shoulders, gloves or even chest head legs for more mastery. Something that would be bananas on an ele unless youre after the terts not the stats. You want mastery on the slots you dont sacrifice stats for it but thats it. The magic number isnt 50% its the amount of stats you have to sacrifice and its 0.
     
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  7. Sweetluvin

    Sweetluvin Krew

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    This is a great guide Bop. Very insightful and creative. I give this two thumbs up
     
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  8. Donor

    Donor XPOff-topic Bro

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  9. mirrorbender

    mirrorbender Veteran

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    I'm not going to let this one go because it just seems wrong. I don't understand how you can think crit is ok but mastery is terrible. Mastery straight up increases attack power. +1% attack power is functionally equivalent to +1% damage, so the raw output is exactly the same as crit outside of instanced PvP, and 33% better than crit in PvP. Then you throw sprinkle some marginal defensive benefit on top of that and you have a perfectly reasonable stat.
     
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  10. Katrex

    Katrex Member

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    Yeah the Holy Paladin mastery is usually either amazing or not that noticable. One advantage of it I suppose is that (If I am not mistaken) you always receive the full benefit from it if you are casting on yourself (since duh, you are an entire 0 yards away from yourself).
     
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  11. Radoon

    Radoon Member

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    I must be missing something, because on my holy pala going from 14% mast to 20% does not increase any healing on myself, and barely noticeable on others.. I feel like on holy pala this thread should be 0/5 because not a single point on it seems worth..
     
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  12. Katrex

    Katrex Member

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    I would have to see again, at least while healing myself outside and inside of combat seems to do more than the tooltip would suggest, and the increase would correlate with my roughly 20% mastery. Though I do agree I wouldn't go out of my way to stack it
     
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  13. Fael

    Fael Believer

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    Didn't expect anything less from Sir Bop.
     
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  14. The Abomb

    The Abomb Member

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    Greetings I'd like to chime in on Prot Pal as someone who has mained Prot at high levels in BFA max lvl popularizing a Mastery build in PvP as it's by far the best stat. So like to offer a different perspective as I finally getting around to getting my Prot Pal twink gear going. Great format for a guide btw really easy to read and exchange info :slight_smile:

    I was block capped in BFA so Diminishing returns start at 70% Mastery which = 70% Block

    Block for Prot in PvP is the biggest mitigation of any tank ability due to Holy Shield talent. You can block everything except bleeds. So you can block explosives, sieges, poisons, spell dots, spells, aimed shot etc.. You can even block brambles and trigger a damage feedback loop with a Bear tank doing massive return damage to them.

    Because of this if enough Block is attained you welcome Spriest or Boomy dotting you as their dots on you kill them as Holy Shield Shards fly back at them. It's a really OP mechanic and while in SL Shield Block value is too low and only (35%) dmg reduction compared to BFA levels (65%) that 35% reduction is factored before ANY other mitigation due too 2 roll hit table.

    My current 20 level Prot has 22.2% damage mitigation from Mastery standing in Cons. Far higher than you could achieve with only Versa and you would have no Block. Also keep in mind that Cons damage reduction in character screen get another 5% added too it in tool tip.

    Versa is ONLY a good stat for Prot if they have enough Blocking/Mastery as Mastery increases it stat weight. Since you Block damage then your Armor/Versa/Cons mitigation is calculated. So I been targeting Master/Versa gear with a few Savant pieces on the build I'm working on.

    When I first started my Twinking journey I asked about gear in this thread here and got a lot of feedback but I do explain the mechanics deeper and welcome any discussion on it.
    https://xpoff.com/threads/new-to-the-20s-twinking-first-try-need-some-help.96926/

    I basically sacrifice most stats for Mastery to make the mechanics of the build work and you become far tankier than any Versa build would be. Currently at 49.07% Mastery which is 60.28% Block. The goal in a BG is for Holy shield to be one of your top damaging and healing abilities that allows you to keep on trucking while face tanking in Cons taking advantage of it's big damage reduction. ;)

    So I'd give Prot Pal Mastery a 5/5 based on how I like to play. Of course the real test comes when my sub runs out again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
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  15. Lateraldrop

    Lateraldrop Veteran

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    I think the disconnect for prot pala mastery is that most players don't use that talent. Seems the majority prefer the consistent holy power generation of the other talent option. It also gives a nominal amount of attack power.
     
  16. The Abomb

    The Abomb Member

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    You are correct, I do think the disconnect comes from not understanding Holy Shield mechanics though, which often isn't translated well in the tool tip. So they quickly look at Blessed hammers and say sure I want HP generation and can fill a Healer type roll. Without realizing Holy Shield is one of the most OP talents in the game.

    Realistically Holy Shield should be baseline (maybe in dragonflight), I just can't imagine playing without it because I feel it captures what it's like to be an aggressive mitigation Tank. Just standing there face tanking doing as much damage as possible.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
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  17. Lateraldrop

    Lateraldrop Veteran

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    agreed, been running holy shield the whole xpac on Docadin.
     
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  18. The Abomb

    The Abomb Member

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    As someone who has always played and mained Prot with the goal of doing as much damage as possible while being tanky. I think it could be bumped up some. Although most tanks are at a disadvantage at 20 missing most of their tool kit for rotation. If we had full access to Ignore pain I'd likely play Prot War and go a decent amount into mastery.

    The case for Mastery being at least 3/5 would be that you can block ranged physical attacks. So everytime you see a hunter going for Aim shot you can just Shield Block and with Mastery you have a chance to Crit block, blocking 2 times the damage nullifying the Aimed shot. It's a hunter Meta and if I was in a BG against hunters on a Prot War I'd rather have Mastery than Crit/Haste. At least you could block their nukes proactively.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 5, 2022, Original Post Date: May 5, 2022 ---
    Since this is debated some I'd like to make a case why Spriest mastery can be 1/5 and is worse single target damage than any other stat.

    In BFA most Spriest ran pure crit builds in high rated RBGs since the damage was unhealable. I always reference BFA since it was the stat stacking expansion revealing what stats can do. On a level 20 Spriest if you went pure Crit build you wouldn't be wrong as all of your dots would pump and being that Crit damage in PvP was increased in SL to 75% it has a very high value.

    So at the very least we can say Crit=Haste for damage but also are your best Defensive stats. Haste lowers cast time and the CD on spells even Power word shield. You can reduce the CD from 7.5 secs down to 5 secs with enough haste. Your Shield can also Crit meaning that every 5 secs your absorb can Crit. This offers you the most mitigation. Furthermore the almost 1 sec cast time just 1 shadow mend if it Crits can full heal you. You become Tanky with Crit/Haste and can focus on getting damage out faster.

    Versa obviously adds damage and healing so bigger absorb. That can Crit. Making Versa a decent 3rd stat after Crit/Haste. Then comes Mastery. I added in a few pieces on my Spriest but man it feels bad and doesn't offer the damage or defensives the other stats do.

    On paper Mastery makes some sense but in application it's your worst stat. Mastery also offers no defense and nothing really to any PvP talents. I think many will run Psyfiend but once you get great gear and enough Crit/Haste you are going to want to consider dropping this talent. Mind trauma talent steals 3% haste from your targets on full Mindflays that aren't a problem getting out if you have enough haste to begin with. Making all your damage higher.

    Now we also have Void Shield PvP talent which becomes good with enough Haste/Crit or Versa. As 30% of your damage refills your absorb. If you have Shields going up every 5 secs and they are Critting you can get out more damage refilling your Absorbs making you even more Tanky.

    I want Mastery to be good ( i like it on other builds) but it's just bad on even single target as the other stats offer more damage and defense while opening up PvP talent options. If you remove your Mastery and go Crit/Haste your damage will go up single target. Crit/Haste is just the way and they are soooo good that you just have no points to ever put into Mastery. Considering Versa is also ahead in a Crit/Haste build.

    Just a different perspective in gameplay. If you want to melt Crit/Haste is the way while making you a Tank.
     
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  19. Tiwaz

    Tiwaz New Member

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    This is correct. I would say however that haste is going to help you get your dots on targets. A big problem with affliction I see is people not getting enough dots out to put out pressure. Which ultimately hurts them when doing damage.

    If you stack too much mastery you're basically doing single target. Which is alright but not really using aff to it's maximum efficiency. There are simply classes that can do single target better. Best to look into your haste to get a GCD that you enjoy playing with.

    I think you're 100% correct. I would say aff has the opposite of your comment on destro mastery. People think think mastery is more important than it is because the tool tip says it does damage so people over stack it and in a class that played differently it would be the right way to go about it.
     
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  20. Yayo

    Yayo Legend

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    I have to admit that I’m enjoying enhance with a bit more mastery atm. Only running about 26% out of instanced pvp but that number doesn’t drop much.

    Makes ride the lightning much more effective and your frost shock can hit about as hard as stormstrike.

    I still primarily run crit/haste but think mastery is often overlooked for enhance.

    Not going full @JadeFire build but it is certainly effective to a degree. I would value it higher than vers atm though for sure.
     

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