Let's Debunk a Bad Argument - Jumps vs. Consumables

Neebler

Neebler

Veteran
I've recently heard the argument going around comparing the unfairness of abusing consumables to the unfairness of abusing jumps - as in, the use of consumables is justified if someone on the enemy team is using jumps for more efficient pathing in Warsong Gulch.

While it's true that both items and jumps provide significant advantages in the Gulch, there are some important distinctions that need to be made between the two. I'll use a powerful analogy to illustrate these differences as well, but we'll get to that in a bit.

ITEMS:
- Compensates for poor positioning/ability management by bypassing meaningful decision making
- Require virtually no practice or mechanical skill to use
- Cannot be used in competitive War Games
- External advantage (additional resource provided to player independent of their skill/knowledge)
- Extremely easy to obtain

JUMPS:
- Require significant mechanical skill to execute (varies per jump)
- Require advanced game knowledge (memorization of texture landmarks, angles, etc.)
- Can be used in competitive War Games (some jumps are illegal, but many are not)
- Purely reliant on player skill (There are mouse macros to facilitate with jumps, which is a separate topic. Many players do not use mouse macros, myself included.)
- Can compensate for poor positioning/play, but much less so, since there is narrow margin for error when performing jumps. More often used to gain additional pathing options than to compensate for a mistake.

Now, let's use an analogy.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is an extremely competitive and popular fighting game with a long-established ruleset. While items are IN the game, they are completely banned in competitive/tournament play 100% of the time, due to the fact that they are very easy to abuse, remove responsibility for the player to perform well, and generally disrupt the advanced play aspects of the game.

Now, within the same game, there are plenty of "glitches," "exploits," whatever you want to refer to them as. Wavedashing, Shield Dropping, L-Cancelling, Edge Cancelling, Chain Grabbing, and so on. All of these are PART of the game at a COMPETITIVE LEVEL. They are advanced techniques, or "techs" that reward players who practice them with additional positioning, movement, and combo options. Some techs are banned, but most are not. Most importantly, players who **do not invest the time and effort in learning these aspects of the game are generally put at a significant disadvantage, and ARE NOT ALLOWED to use items to compensate in a competitive setting.* Controllers can even be legally modded for tournaments to make some techs easier, which justifies mouse macros as well.

While you can make the argument that Warsong Gulch PuGs are not a competitive setting, you cannot make the argument that the use of consumables/buffs is justified by a player's inability to perform or general distaste towards jumps. People who play non-competitive games in Melee still do not use items, unless they're just goofing around and not taking a particular match seriously. I get the impression that most people who abuse items want to be taken seriously in some regard, and viewed as "skilled," so the "lul we're just messing around and using items deal with it" point is pretty invalid here. You won't be viewed as skilled if that's your stance for every match you enter.

If you treat PuGs as a time to goof around and abuse dumb items, that's totally fine. Not every twink needs to be a serious or competitive player. But as soon as you compare their advantages to the advantages of jumps, you are entering the sphere of competitive play, which items have absolutely no part of, and are considered extremely nooby compensation tools.

That's just how it is. Competitive players are always going to use jumps. You can use items as much as you want in PuGs, but please don't think it's acceptable to complain about a competitive aspect of the game by using items as a counterpoint.

That is all.

Thanks, and happy twinking.

- Neebs
 
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i have not stocked up on any speed pots or gliders yet
but sometimes when you are in a pure leveler pug
against a pure leveler pug
that speed pot is fine

let us say you are in a situation where both teams are door knobs
you are up 1 cap
and you have just fought off two people who do not know how to melee LoS or some other dumb lack of skill
a few seconds ago the efc ran past you during your 2v1 fight
but disengaging at that time would certainly mean death
in that situation a speed pot to catch up to efc is fine in my book
because your bag of door knob teammates were defending their tunnel entrance or something

granted the above situation is extremely rare
but in events like those
i do not feel guilty about a consumable

in premades though
yeah you are right
kind of low
unless you are in a 2-man going up against a bigger premade

but than again
one could make the argument that you should use this opportunity to get better at communicating with levelers via text macros
 
to clarify
i think any anti-consumption rule should only be self-imposed
unless dealing with competitive events

whatever feelings i have about speed pots and gliders
i will not impose rules or some sort of standards restricting people from using them based on my feelings
 
I see your point. Even still, most situations where an item is used are to compensate for a mistake. Even if it's an extremely difficult mistake to account for in advance, I would still rather analyze why that mistake happened and accept my punishment for it instead of using an item to recover from it.

The mistake in your scenario is not having the awareness to punish the EFC before they ran past you, and a speed pot would be compensating for a lack of awareness. Even if you don't end up stopping him, you can at least tell yourself that you perceived the EFC's movement and responded accordingly to the best of your ability instead of using an item to cover up an error.

The objective of every game, no matter how one-sided, should be to improve as a player. I'd rather accept and analyze a mistake and adjust my play accordingly than bypass that process with an item, even if it means losing. This is why I have issues with anyone who spams items and views themselves as a skilled player. They are contradictory notions.
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Donor said:
to clarify
i think any anti-consumption rule should only be self-imposed
unless dealing with competitive events

whatever feelings i have about speed pots and gliders
i will not impose rules or some sort of standards restricting people from using them based on my feelings
Click to expand...
The thing is, War Games are the standard for competitive play, and items physically cannot be used in War Games, they are disabled automatically regardless of whether or not someone wants to use them. The only exceptions off the top of my head are bandages and battle standards. Since War Gams are the standard of competitive play, and items cannot be used in War Games, then using items at all is considered a non-competitive action. As I stated before, players can use them in PuGs and there isn't much that can be done about it. But they are in direct violation of the competitive standard, despite what I or anyone else believes.
 
well in my situation disengaging the 2v1 i was busy with would mean losing the LoS melee advantages i had on them while dancing
and in the ensuing moments i would have taken more damage from those 2 people and possibly die
so the immediate decision was to finish the fight with 1 of the 2 on me as he was lower on health
and than try to disengage
by that time the charge was up and i gave chase
managing to juke the 2nd person
however i wasn't able to get within distance to get my charge off
i think it was a difference of 1 second where that speed pot would help
but if i disengage 1 second too early than i have to deal with an outlaw rogue who may remember to spam pistol shot or not
like i said
levelers lol
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Neebler said:
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The thing is, War Games are the standard for competitive play, and items physically cannot be used in War Games, they are disabled automatically regardless of whether or not someone wants to use them. The only exceptions off the top of my head are bandages and battle standards. Since War Gams are the standard of competitive play, and items cannot be used in War Games, then using items at all is considered a non-competitive action. As I stated before, players can use them in PuGs and there isn't much that can be done about it. But they are in direct violation of the competitive standard, despite what I or anyone else believes.
Click to expand...

yes
i see your point
but i will not protest them using consumables
as that is their decision to make
 
To put what you are saying into perspective, using Major League Baseball, if they decided that drinking Gatorade was banned (consummable), but bypassing 2nd to run straight from first to third was ok due to "creative use of field mechanics".
 
Shaket said:
To put what you are saying into perspective, using Major League Baseball, if they decided that drinking Gatorade was banned (consummable), but bypassing 2nd to run straight from first to third was ok due to "creative use of field mechanics".
Click to expand...
Steroids not Gatorade would be better
 
Vet said:
Steroids not Gatorade would be better
Click to expand...
No, Gatorade is a better analogy. Steroids last multiple games, Gatorade quenches your thirst at one point in one game. Much like a health pot restores your heath once, it doesn't buff your health over multiple games. The butthurt, however, will continue for the life of the butthurt player who will then make longwinded posts comparing wow to fucking mariokart, lmao.
 
Shaket said:
To put what you are saying into perspective, using Major League Baseball, if they decided that drinking Gatorade was banned (consummable), but bypassing 2nd to run straight from first to home was ok due to "creative use of field mechanics".
Click to expand...
Drinking Gatorade is more akin to drinking water to restore mana, and speedpots are steroids that dramatically increase your performance - steroids are banned in competitive play...and probably should be banned in all play, but you won't be investigated for steroids in an unofficial pickup game with randoms. As for cutting bases, that's completely against the rules, whereas glitches are not only allowed, they are kept in the game by Blizzard despite their knowledge. (This is known because Blizz has removed some jumps while allowing others to remain in the game - most of them have been around for a long time.) Also, using a jump often doesn't guarantee a win, as cutting from second to home would. It's usually just to gain some sort of positional advantage that can still be countered. Jumps that directly result in some insanely OP win condition type deal are banned by the community, like jumping from Horde GY to Second.
 
You only speedpot to catch up to other speedpotters, or piss off your friends.

All jumps are acceptable in PuGs, only approved jumps are acceptable in plebs (but I doubt they see much use as is).
 
Sorry man but what a load of bollocks.

Twinks have ( by very definition ) sought to gain an advantage over others, in one way or another. Speed pots / Warsong Int buff annoy me but that's part of being a twink, seek an advantage and use it.

I bet your twinks have a higher than base iLevel on their gear- isn't that the same thing, a no skill adavantage?
 
My opinion.
All jumps should be legal that don't require a certain class/race/ability should be legal. GY jumped should remain banned.
I don't mind people buffing up before games asides 60 int.
Drums, Speedpots, Goblin Gliders are all disgusting.
If you have to rely on something as huge as that to win you shouldn't even be allowed near a PC nevermind the bracket.
 
Gixxer66 said:
Sorry man but what a load of bollocks.

Twinks have ( by very definition ) sought to gain an advantage over others, in one way or another. Speed pots / Warsong Int buff annoy me but that's part of being a twink, seek an advantage and use it.

I bet your twinks have a higher than base iLevel on their gear- isn't that the same thing, a no skill adavantage?
Click to expand...

I understand this point of view, but consider the following:

The advantage you gain from items is BANNED in competitive play, for one.

Secondly, most people who spam items also have high ilvl.

Finally, the "advantage" you gain from items is a giant undo button to compensate for crappy positioning, awareness and ability management. If someone is good at those three things, there will literally never be a game where you NEED an item to win. Pizza for example literally never uses items and frequently wins PuG games with other players who also do not use items. So clearly, the item advantage is more so a crutch than something "skilled twinks use to optimize their ability to win."

Jumps compliment good play, items compensate for bad play. It's as simple as that. Items aren't going away, which I accept. But to associate them as a core part of competitive twinking is incorrect. They are a crutch tool for casual/inexperienced players and nothing more.
 
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